Will the 2022 Recession affect CCL cruise fares?

[Buckeyefrank100]

5 minutes ago, cruisingguy007 said:

 

The problem is the lopsidedness, when you feast/pillage one the wages of your production/service staff over and over, while at the same time increasing your top end, something has to give. Say what you will but if a bunch of top end executives walk off the job most won't even notice, if your frontline/mainline workers do, everyone notices, yet they are constantly reminded that they are the ones who are expendable and less valuable. It's garbage, most companies are way too top heavy with redundant  people doing next to nothing but pilfering large chunks of the pie. This all started shifting with the garbage theory of "low skill", I detest that nonsense, there is nothing low skill about hard work and many of the suits couldn't hack it on the frontline/mainline of many industries that require actual labor. Even the lowly "burger flipper" that people love to make fun of is a tough job, those were some of the hardest working folks I've had the pleasure to work with in my younger days. It takes mad skills to manage a busy drive-through/dining room. Low skill my arse. Same with alll the other jobs that Americans love to farm out to others (and expect them to do it for poverty wages) because they don't want to do them (childcare/nanny, car washing, house cleaning etc). Too much elitism in America and no respect for labor.      

Too much entitlement in America too.  At the end of the day, every job has a value.  That value doesn't equal importance.  You can criticize CEO salaries all you want, but there are certain things most people don't think about.  First of all, the average CEO salary is about $155K.  Very few are making the millions that are generally quoted.  Those are reserved for the major corporations, but a vast majority of CEOs do not make that.  The CEOs are also the most exposed legally.   A burger flipper is not going to be sued if they do something wrong.  The CEO generally has personal liability both financially and legally.  When something goes wrong in the company, the CEO can go to jail.  There is much more risk with the CEO.  In general pay in the corporate world is determined by risk factors and economic impact.  

 

Not to mention, most of the "suits" got their starts on the front line.  Most of them work harder than anyone would ever know.  It's not demeaning to call a job low skill.  It's just the truth.  It doesn't mean the person doing the job is worth any less as a human.  There are just a lot more people that can flip a burger than can run an organization.

[cruisingguy007]

21 minutes ago, Buckeyefrank100 said:

Too much entitlement in America too.  At the end of the day, every job has a value.  That value doesn't equal importance.  You can criticize CEO salaries all you want, but there are certain things most people don't think about.  First of all, the average CEO salary is about $155K.  Very few are making the millions that are generally quoted.  Those are reserved for the major corporations, but a vast majority of CEOs do not make that.  The CEOs are also the most exposed legally.   A burger flipper is not going to be sued if they do something wrong.  The CEO generally has personal liability both financially and legally.  When something goes wrong in the company, the CEO can go to jail.  There is much more risk with the CEO.  In general pay in the corporate world is determined by risk factors and economic impact.  

 

Not to mention, most of the "suits" got their starts on the front line.  Most of them work harder than anyone would ever know.  It's not demeaning to call a job low skill.  It's just the truth.  It doesn't mean the person doing the job is worth any less as a human.  There are just a lot more people that can flip a burger than can run an organization.

 

I'm not anti-executive, it's just gotten too lopsided is my point. The top feasts on the mainline too much. Many companies also layoff workers just before earnings to try and appear more profitable (ruse) for earnings reports. Low skill is demeaning, especially coming from people who couldn't hack it if their cushy rolls disappeared and they had to return to the front-lines of the labor force.  

Edited August 1, 2022 by cruisingguy007

[BlerkOne]

I'm having a hard time thinking of a CEO that went to jail that didn't deliberately break the law for their own profit.

 

The most recent past leader of Carnival was a leader a Boeing and before that Monsanto.

 

Even someone who flips burgers deserves a living wage. Lacking that, you get an entitlement society.

[Buckeyefrank100]

5 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

I'm having a hard time thinking of a CEO that went to jail that didn't deliberately break the law for their own profit.

 

The most recent past leader of Carnival was a leader a Boeing and before that Monsanto.

 

Even someone who flips burgers deserves a living wage. Lacking that, you get an entitlement society.

I disagree, sorry.  The revenue of a burger joint for an hour has to cover, the utilities, rent or mortgage, wages of the burger flipper.  There is an economic value to a job...  Arbitrarily setting prices and wages does no good for anybody.

[BlerkOne]

7 minutes ago, Buckeyefrank100 said:

I disagree, sorry.  The revenue of a burger joint for an hour has to cover, the utilities, rent or mortgage, wages of the burger flipper.  There is an economic value to a job...  Arbitrarily setting prices and wages does no good for anybody.

They are going to get paid one way or another. Your approval is not needed. Without the burger flipper, the business closes. I see that now with some restaurants closing not because of lack of business, but because of lack of staff.

[cruisingguy007]

Just now, Buckeyefrank100 said:

I disagree, sorry.  The revenue of a burger joint for an hour has to cover, the utilities, rent or mortgage, wages of the burger flipper.  There is an economic value to a job...  Arbitrarily setting prices and wages does no good for anybody.

 

So employ your kids, friends and/or other family members (small business remember) or better yet, do it yourself, no one has a right to cheap labor or socialized labor that relies on their uncle Sam to subsidize their poorly paid workers with subsistence assistance because full time wages don't cover basic living needs. That's essentially privatizing profits and socializing costs, that also does no good for anyone, well except the person profiting off the subsidized labor. Everyone else picks up the social program cost for that person(s) (food programs, housing programs and medical programs). Min wage amounts to slavery in some states and there is nothing arbitrary about that. Corporate welfare is still welfare, aka socialism.    

[Purvis1231]

20 hours ago, seaman11 said:

i think I saw one stat where the avg cruiser spends $650 on board through drinks, casino , tours ect.  So I assume they make their money off that. plus I think cost will come down also after the summer.  with fuel prices coming down a bit. 

That could be true, my family spent around $400 onboard for three people. 

Edited August 1, 2022 by Purvis1231
typo

[BlerkOne]

I see Royal stock plummeted today due to lower demand and the fact that they are trying to raise almost a billion dollars via notes. Looks like Carnival was ahead of the curve on this.

[BlerkOne]

3 hours ago, Buckeyefrank100 said:

True but wage growth pales in comparison to inflation.  It's much more expensive to survive now.

That's why it is good to have Social Security!

[Lane Hog]

5 hours ago, ledges1 said:

A profit is preferable, but a lot of companies do not make a profit. Zillow has not made a profit in over 10 years. Uber and Lyft are not profitable

 

I don't know that I'd be looking at technology companies as the bellweather for cruise lines...

All three of these operate on a model of providing technology to serve as the middlemen between buyers and sellers.  But they don't need long term investment in assets.  Everything they need to survive can be leased or provided by someone else -- they need web and data hosting, software development, and marketing.  No long term capex involved.  There's really no supply chain involved.

 

With hospitality & transportation.... you need gobs of expensive infrastructure and tons of supplies just to bring in the first guest, and a supply chain that serves dozens of locations globally.  But there are also huge assets that can be used as collateral, so as long as there's cashflow to cover the interest and expenses, "profit" can be optional.  Plus, all those losses that they're taking now will be carry-forwards assuming Congress doesn't do something stupid and change the tax laws in mid-recession...

 

5 hours ago, ledges1 said:

I would not predict the demise of Carnival as many may fill inclined. In the long run, there could be additional consolidation and more ships scrapped. As mentioned earlier, Seabourn could be sold.

 

I agree.  Consolidation could be as simple as combining brands (and we've already seen some signs of convergence/overlap mitigation with Costa and Carnival).  

[Lane Hog]

26 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

I see Royal stock plummeted today due to lower demand and the fact that they are trying to raise almost a billion dollars via notes. Looks like Carnival was ahead of the curve on this.

Or it could just be some investors finally waking up and reacting to the fact that in a recession, people won't be as quick to spend money on cruising if they can't keep up with energy and grocery prices...

 

[BlerkOne]

13 minutes ago, Lane Hog said:

Or it could just be some investors finally waking up and reacting to the fact that in a recession, people won't be as quick to spend money on cruising if they can't keep up with energy and grocery prices...

 

That explains why Walmart and others are slashing prices on thousands of items.

[cruisingguy007]

32 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

That explains why Walmart and others are slashing prices on thousands of items.

 

It's to reduce excess inventory in apparel, home furnishings, furniture and electronics. Target is in the same boat. The RCI news certainly explains the aggressive sale pricing I've been seeing lately. With the cashback offerings, it's the best prices I've seen on Royal deals yet.   

[BlerkOne]

3 minutes ago, cruisingguy007 said:

 

It's to reduce excess inventory in apparel, home furnishings, furniture and electronics. Target is in the same boat. The RCI news certainly explains the aggressive sale pricing I've been seeing lately. With the cashback offerings, it's the best prices I've seen on Royal deals yet.   

Stores don't even want returns. They are just saying keep it.

[Illbcruzn4life]

9 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

I see Royal stock plummeted today due to lower demand and the fact that they are trying to raise almost a billion dollars via notes. Looks like Carnival was ahead of the curve on this.

There is something to hang your hat on. Innovative and leading the pack. 🙄

[Moviela]

I had to chuckle at the average CEO makes 155K. That must be the CEO of the pony ride at Griffith Park. California pays Highway Patrolmen over 200K, lower management over 300K. Most teachers make 125K or better. Public Universities are paying professors 300K to 500K. I find it silly to hear teachers complain they can't make ends meet, while maximum Social Security is 40K.

 

The largest problem facing the nation is the rapid increase in energy prices, dictated by a cult that can't tell you what makes a balloon go up. Reckless injection of cash into the economy is a secondary cause of inflation.

 

[Illbcruzn4life]

2 hours ago, Moviela said:

I had to chuckle at the average CEO makes 155K. That must be the CEO of the pony ride at Griffith Park. California pays Highway Patrolmen over 200K, lower management over 300K. Most teachers make 125K or better. Public Universities are paying professors 300K to 500K. I find it silly to hear teachers complain they can't make ends meet, while maximum Social Security is 40K.

 

The largest problem facing the nation is the rapid increase in energy prices, dictated by a cult that can't tell you what makes a balloon go up. Reckless injection of cash into the economy is a secondary cause of inflation.

 

maybe some of the teachers on the east coast would like to move to California and make that kind of money. Teachers here don't even make half that.

[Buckeyefrank100]

On 8/1/2022 at 4:45 PM, cruisingguy007 said:

 

So employ your kids, friends and/or other family members (small business remember) or better yet, do it yourself, no one has a right to cheap labor or socialized labor that relies on their uncle Sam to subsidize their poorly paid workers with subsistence assistance because full time wages don't cover basic living needs. That's essentially privatizing profits and socializing costs, that also does no good for anyone, well except the person profiting off the subsidized labor. Everyone else picks up the social program cost for that person(s) (food programs, housing programs and medical programs). Min wage amounts to slavery in some states and there is nothing arbitrary about that. Corporate welfare is still welfare, aka socialism.    

Minimum wage jobs are not to support a family.  They are starting jobs.  One should work their way out of that job into higher paying positions based on their skills.  Not every job has to be a living wage.

[Buckeyefrank100]

10 hours ago, Moviela said:

I had to chuckle at the average CEO makes 155K. That must be the CEO of the pony ride at Griffith Park. California pays Highway Patrolmen over 200K, lower management over 300K. Most teachers make 125K or better. Public Universities are paying professors 300K to 500K. I find it silly to hear teachers complain they can't make ends meet, while maximum Social Security is 40K.

 

The largest problem facing the nation is the rapid increase in energy prices, dictated by a cult that can't tell you what makes a balloon go up. Reckless injection of cash into the economy is a secondary cause of inflation.

 

https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Chief_Executive_Officer_(CEO)/Salary

[Moviela]

2 hours ago, Buckeyefrank100 said:

https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Chief_Executive_Officer_(CEO)/Salary

As I said, the folk's in the survey you cited are CEO's of a pony ride. In my world a CEO runs a S&P 500 company. The average compensation of those folks is (drum roll) $18.3 million

[Lane Hog]

Yeah, but its a fact that the average CEO isn't running a Fortune 500 company. 

 

There are between 20 and 30 million "CEO" positions in the US, since that's how many registered corporations there are.

 

Context matters....

Edited August 3, 2022 by Lane Hog

[Moviela]

55 minutes ago, Lane Hog said:

Yeah, but its a fact that the average CEO isn't running a Fortune 500 company. 

 

 

I feel sorry for the Fortune 500 CEO's as their average compensation is only about $12 million.

 

[Buckeyefrank100]

1 hour ago, Moviela said:

As I said, the folk's in the survey you cited are CEO's of a pony ride. In my world a CEO runs a S&P 500 company. The average compensation of those folks is (drum roll) $18.3 million

It doesn't matter what world you live in.  Facts are facts.  The average CEO does not run a fortune 500 company.    I also personally don't have a problem with the fortune 500 CEOs making a ton of cash.  Their job is extremely demanding and difficult.  Decisions they make affect whether the 5000 (or more) people working for the company can keep their jobs or the company goes out of business.  I don't begrudge what anyone makes..  It's none of my business.  Wages are a supply and demand issue and should be completely dictated by market forces.  It's the same reason an NFL lineman doesn't make the same as an NFL quarterback.