Did P&O Order the Wrong Ships?

[kalos]

2 hours ago, molecrochip said:

• The research says that UK punters don't want to pay the extra for surfing or flights over the top deck - therefore return on investment is difficult.
• This is in part still because P&O has to balance offseason demand being very 50+ whereas American ships, because of their quick access to say, the Caribbean, still attract a good mix of 30-80+ during off season.

 

Very good points that go hand in hand 

[Cruisemeister2002]

Reading through the various replies to this topic my opinion for what it's worth is that those that don't cruise probably still won't cruise. Those that do cruise may over the next year or so have a very good choice as to where and with whom they travel. Me and the wife have done 17 cruises, 16 of them with P&O. Are they the best ? possibly not and my concern for the future is as a cruise line in which direction they are heading. We have seen a distinct lowering of the level of service since we started cruising in 2002. Staff in the main are polite and do their best. Our cruises have encompass many Countries from the US to Egypt, the Ukraine to Istanbul and although many thousands of pounds later when I could have had a better car or a bigger house or now a bungalow if it wasn't for the reasonable prices P&O charge for their cruises I doubt whether we would have been to a quarter of the places and met the very good crew and fellow passengers we have. As far as Iona and Arvia are concerned I hope to try both. I loved Oriana and although she's in her 20's now Aurora. I know the theme is for bigger and bigger but I'd still like to see a couple of ships join the P&O fleet of a similar size to Oriana and Aurora.

[molecrochip]

I have a bit more time now, so let me tough on how I think water slides are a really interesting proposition.

 

Firstly, you need a ship thats big enough. Arguably Iona and Arvia are the only three ships which are big enough and we know that Iona was built for serving Norway and winter Southampton based cruises so we can discount her.

 

That leaves us with Arvia at 184,700gt. If you compare RCI's fleet, The Freedom class at 156,000gt have a water park, however you're looking at the Oasis class (223,000gt) and the Quantum Class (168,000gt) before you have proper 'flume' water slides.

 

Arvia will have a waterworks water park on top of the ship. This will include a water slide but not a flume. Its easy to add a water park as she is not first in class for such activities however none of the Excellence class ships have a flume therefore the engineering, design and maintenance cost of a one-off item is disproportionately huge - especially when its still only a small proportion of your audience it appeals to. Conversely Mardi Gras has the Bolt coaster however this features on all three of the ships being delivered for CCL in the class.

 

Turning to some of the other "destination-ship" activities on ship, it was the 2006 Freedom Class which debuted the ice skating rink, rockwall together with the FlowRider. The 2009 Oasis Class added the Ultimate Abyss flume slides and the 2014 Quantum Class introduced RipCord and Northern Star but dropped the ice skating rink and rockwall.

 

What you'll note here is that with the exception of the Freedom Class features, those activities are all on ships which are significantly bigger than Arvia. Most of the features are also included at the expense of an aft pool / sunbathing space - all of which is still highly sought after on P&O ships.

 

The Americans are known for keeping busy and not sunbathing as much as us Brits. They are also happy to pay for the premium RipCord / FlowRider / Northern Star experiences which help finance these activities in the first place. I'm not sure that works as well in the UK. Speaking with a friend at RCI, Anthem of the Seas, when based out of Southampton, doesn't sell those experiences as well as the rest of the fleet.

 

I would argue that family cruising in the UK is 15 years behind the US. On that basis, our ships should be keeping pace with the Freedom Class. Arvia is. OK she has no ice rink but she has dedicated cinemas and an escape room. She has the waterworks up top. She is the 2022 equivalent of the Freedom Class.

 

So for those who keep asking why there are not more "destination ship" activities on P&O, I ask you this - do you want their ships to be 20-40% bigger again?

[molecrochip]

31 minutes ago, FamilyCruiserUK said:

The slides are extra to the main pools so in fact more children will be away from the main pool. But as always there is a "kids" season and an "adult" season. But if P&O want to push into the US market whilst in the carribean then the American passengers with kids want more then what P&O offer. We were P&O fans for a while but post having a child we are Royal fans. That said we are trying Arvia next summer. 

Carnival have a UK brand in P&O, a German brand in Aida, a European brand in Costa, and Australian brand in P&O Australia and a US brand in Carnival. Their other brands are targeted worldwide.

 

I can 100% categorically state that P&O have no intention or desire to push into the US market when in the Caribbean or elsewhere. They wish to be the UK holiday of choice for UK families. Their guests are greater than 98% UK resident/nationals and over 99% commonwealth nations. P&O do not actively market outside of the UK.

[terrierjohn]

11 minutes ago, molecrochip said:

I have a bit more time now, so let me tough on how I think water slides are a really interesting proposition.

 

Firstly, you need a ship thats big enough. Arguably Iona and Arvia are the only three ships which are big enough and we know that Iona was built for serving Norway and winter Southampton based cruises so we can discount her.

 

That leaves us with Arvia at 184,700gt. If you compare RCI's fleet, The Freedom class at 156,000gt have a water park, however you're looking at the Oasis class (223,000gt) and the Quantum Class (168,000gt) before you have proper 'flume' water slides.

 

Arvia will have a waterworks water park on top of the ship. This will include a water slide but not a flume. Its easy to add a water park as she is not first in class for such activities however none of the Excellence class ships have a flume therefore the engineering, design and maintenance cost of a one-off item is disproportionately huge - especially when its still only a small proportion of your audience it appeals to. Conversely Mardi Gras has the Bolt coaster however this features on all three of the ships being delivered for CCL in the class.

 

Turning to some of the other "destination-ship" activities on ship, it was the 2006 Freedom Class which debuted the ice skating rink, rockwall together with the FlowRider. The 2009 Oasis Class added the Ultimate Abyss flume slides and the 2014 Quantum Class introduced RipCord and Northern Star but dropped the ice skating rink and rockwall.

 

What you'll note here is that with the exception of the Freedom Class features, those activities are all on ships which are significantly bigger than Arvia. Most of the features are also included at the expense of an aft pool / sunbathing space - all of which is still highly sought after on P&O ships.

 

The Americans are known for keeping busy and not sunbathing as much as us Brits. They are also happy to pay for the premium RipCord / FlowRider / Northern Star experiences which help finance these activities in the first place. I'm not sure that works as well in the UK. Speaking with a friend at RCI, Anthem of the Seas, when based out of Southampton, doesn't sell those experiences as well as the rest of the fleet.

 

I would argue that family cruising in the UK is 15 years behind the US. On that basis, our ships should be keeping pace with the Freedom Class. Arvia is. OK she has no ice rink but she has dedicated cinemas and an escape room. She has the waterworks up top. She is the 2022 equivalent of the Freedom Class.

 

So for those who keep asking why there are not more "destination ship" activities on P&O, I ask you this - do you want their ships to be 20-40% bigger again?

Not correct Moley most of RCIs Voyager and Freedom class ships have all had water slides retro fitted to them, to bring them into line with their Oasis class ships.

[Cruisemeister2002]

13 minutes ago, molecrochip said:

I have a bit more time now, so let me tough on how I think water slides are a really interesting proposition.

 

Firstly, you need a ship thats big enough. Arguably Iona and Arvia are the only three ships which are big enough and we know that Iona was built for serving Norway and winter Southampton based cruises so we can discount her.

 

That leaves us with Arvia at 184,700gt. If you compare RCI's fleet, The Freedom class at 156,000gt have a water park, however you're looking at the Oasis class (223,000gt) and the Quantum Class (168,000gt) before you have proper 'flume' water slides.

 

Arvia will have a waterworks water park on top of the ship. This will include a water slide but not a flume. Its easy to add a water park as she is not first in class for such activities however none of the Excellence class ships have a flume therefore the engineering, design and maintenance cost of a one-off item is disproportionately huge - especially when its still only a small proportion of your audience it appeals to. Conversely Mardi Gras has the Bolt coaster however this features on all three of the ships being delivered for CCL in the class.

 

Turning to some of the other "destination-ship" activities on ship, it was the 2006 Freedom Class which debuted the ice skating rink, rockwall together with the FlowRider. The 2009 Oasis Class added the Ultimate Abyss flume slides and the 2014 Quantum Class introduced RipCord and Northern Star but dropped the ice skating rink and rockwall.

 

What you'll note here is that with the exception of the Freedom Class features, those activities are all on ships which are significantly bigger than Arvia. Most of the features are also included at the expense of an aft pool / sunbathing space - all of which is still highly sought after on P&O ships.

 

The Americans are known for keeping busy and not sunbathing as much as us Brits. They are also happy to pay for the premium RipCord / FlowRider / Northern Star experiences which help finance these activities in the first place. I'm not sure that works as well in the UK. Speaking with a friend at RCI, Anthem of the Seas, when based out of Southampton, doesn't sell those experiences as well as the rest of the fleet.

 

I would argue that family cruising in the UK is 15 years behind the US. On that basis, our ships should be keeping pace with the Freedom Class. Arvia is. OK she has no ice rink but she has dedicated cinemas and an escape room. She has the waterworks up top. She is the 2022 equivalent of the Freedom Class.

 

So for those who keep asking why there are not more "destination ship" activities on P&O, I ask you this - do you want their ships to be 20-40% bigger again?

Do I want the ships to be 20-40% bigger ? Er no. I want them 20-40% smaller. But then I'd probably have to depart to another probably more expensive cruise line. I often watch programs about Titanic and although by current standards her tonnage was relatively small, about 53,000 tonnes, correct me if I'm wrong. When even ships like Oriana and the still in service Aurora are 70,000 tonnes plus. I just hope we are not in another mad race to who can get to 250,000 tonnes or more.

[FamilyCruiserUK]

1 hour ago, molecrochip said:

Carnival have a UK brand in P&O, a German brand in Aida, a European brand in Costa, and Australian brand in P&O Australia and a US brand in Carnival. Their other brands are targeted worldwide.

 

I can 100% categorically state that P&O have no intention or desire to push into the US market when in the Caribbean or elsewhere. They wish to be the UK holiday of choice for UK families. Their guests are greater than 98% UK resident/nationals and over 99% commonwealth nations. P&O do not actively market outside of the UK.

I didnt know they didnt market outside of the UK. However i believe when families have a choice they will learn towards other brands. Those same brands who are expanding into the british market. UK/European cruises.  So back to the OP are the ships too big. No, like any business you need to diversify and have options for all cruise passengers.

[FangedRose]

31 minutes ago, FamilyCruiserUK said:

I didnt know they didnt market outside of the UK. However i believe when families have a choice they will learn towards other brands. Those same brands who are expanding into the british market. UK/European cruises.  So back to the OP are the ships too big. No, like any business you need to diversify and have options for all cruise passengers.

Or, carve out your niche and aim at a particular section of the market. Which is where P&O are getting a bit lost. They are not sure what they are aiming for. Apart from being British.

Edited August 5, 2022 by FangedRose

[Snow Hill]

4 hours ago, molecrochip said:

Finally, P&O have taken the point that people like the branded shows that RCI offer, and have taken a first step with bringing Greatest Day onboard Arvia. This is the rebranded musical orignally called The Band and is based around the Take That songbook underlying the continued relationship with Barlow and Co. This highlights well the demographic being targeted.

Thanks for the warning, I couldn’t face 5 mins watching a show featuring Take That songs. 😬

Edited August 5, 2022 by Snow Hill

[davecttr]

9 minutes ago, Snow Hill said:

Thanks for the warning, I couldn’t face 5 mins watching a show featuring Take That songs. 😬

I wont be watching that on Arvia next year either. Take What songs 😁

[Megabear2]

1 hour ago, FamilyCruiserUK said:

I didnt know they didnt market outside of the UK. However i believe when families have a choice they will learn towards other brands. Those same brands who are expanding into the british market. UK/European cruises.  So back to the OP are the ships too big. No, like any business you need to diversify and have options for all cruise passengers.

The American ships are more expensive though.  Also as has been said elsewhere formulaic.  Even MSC is like a one armed bandit with extras - 10 pin bowling, arcade etc spring to mind.  As pointed out by Moley British passengers aren't so keen to pay for the extras like the flow riders etc. As I said before all these zip lines etc come st a cost.  

[terrierjohn]

13 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

The American ships are more expensive though.  Also as has been said elsewhere formulaic.  Even MSC is like a one armed bandit with extras - 10 pin bowling, arcade etc spring to mind.  As pointed out by Moley British passengers aren't so keen to pay for the extras like the flow riders etc. As I said before all these zip lines etc come st a cost.  

The flowrider is free on RCI unless you pay for a private lesson, also free are  the water slides, rock climbing, bumper cars, sky diving, carousel rides, ice skating, the ultimate abyss, zip lining. 

The cruise price may be higher but pre covid Indy always sailed full, so many Brits were prepared to pay extra for something that was a bit special compared to P&O.

 

Edited August 5, 2022 by terrierjohn

[Megabear2]

4 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

The flowrider is free on RCI unless you pay for a private lesson, also free are  the water slides, rock climbing, bumper cars, sky diving, carousel rides, ice skating, the ultimate abyss, zip lining. 

Very nice. I sailed on Allure transatlantic in 2018 and loved the carousel which was free.  However the sideshows on the Boardwalk were payable like a fairground.  I've never sailed on Independence or Anthem with the bumper cars and things so can't comment on those.  I thought that ifly and north star used to be chargeable.

 

I'm told there was a charge for the escape room on a recent RCI cruise by niece travelled on earlier this year.  I haven't sailed RCI since 2018 but did consider Wonder of the Seas earlier this year. The price was 30% higher than the Celebrity Edge cruise we eventually chose and 50% more than Princess and P&O.  

 

To be truthful at my age I'm not too concerned about bumper cars etc!

[terrierjohn]

2 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

Very nice. I sailed on Allure transatlantic in 2018 and loved the carousel which was free.  However the sideshows on the Boardwalk were payable like a fairground.  I've never sailed on Independence or Anthem with the bumper cars and things so can't comment on those.  I thought that ifly and north star used to be chargeable.

 

I'm told there was a charge for the escape room on a recent RCI cruise by niece travelled on earlier this year.  I haven't sailed RCI since 2018 but did consider Wonder of the Seas earlier this year. The price was 30% higher than the Celebrity Edge cruise we eventually chose and 50% more than Princess and P&O.  

 

To be truthful at my age I'm not too concerned about bumper cars etc!

I am also too.old for most of these extras, but they do appeal to younger cruisers and families, and that is the demographic that P&O are tryong to attract, certainly fot the Caribbean fly cruises, and the summer months in the Med.

[Yorkypete]

6 hours ago, molecrochip said:

I should really do a long response for this but don't have the time:

• Iona/Arvia generally make a profit above 35% full
• Britannia generally makes a profit above 40% full
• Iona/Arvia were the only ships available to order at the time. The other Royal class ships were already allocated and by the time Iona was ordered, they were old designs and not meeting current company requirements - such as LNG.
• Princess have since ordered two new Sphere class ships instead of more Royal class.
• The research says that UK punters don't want to pay the extra for surfing or flights over the top deck - therefore return on investment is difficult.
• This is in part still because P&O has to balance offseason demand being very 50+ whereas American ships, because of their quick access to say, the Caribbean, still attract a good mix of 30-80+ during off season.
• New ships will continue to develop the offering but most items won't be forced upon the older ships.

 

Finally, P&O have taken the point that people like the branded shows that RCI offer, and have taken a first step with bringing Greatest Day onboard Arvia. This is the rebranded musical orignally called The Band and is based around the Take That songbook underlying the continued relationship with Barlow and Co. This highlights well the demographic being targeted.

'Iona and Arvia were the only ships available to order'. Does that mean you can only order what is available and not necessarily what you want? Are shipbuilers saying to cruise lines you can only order what we want to build and not what you may want?

[Megabear2]

5 minutes ago, Yorkypete said:

'Iona and Arvia were the only ships available to order'. Does that mean you can only order what is available and not necessarily what you want? Are shipbuilers saying to cruise lines you can only order what we want to build and not what you may want?

It seems likely! Look at Queen Anne, as far away from a traditional Cunard ship as you can get.

[Yorkypete]

3 hours ago, molecrochip said:

I have a bit more time now, so let me tough on how I think water slides are a really interesting proposition.

 

Firstly, you need a ship thats big enough. Arguably Iona and Arvia are the only three ships which are big enough and we know that Iona was built for serving Norway and winter Southampton based cruises so we can discount her.

 

That leaves us with Arvia at 184,700gt. If you compare RCI's fleet, The Freedom class at 156,000gt have a water park, however you're looking at the Oasis class (223,000gt) and the Quantum Class (168,000gt) before you have proper 'flume' water slides.

 

Arvia will have a waterworks water park on top of the ship. This will include a water slide but not a flume. Its easy to add a water park as she is not first in class for such activities however none of the Excellence class ships have a flume therefore the engineering, design and maintenance cost of a one-off item is disproportionately huge - especially when its still only a small proportion of your audience it appeals to. Conversely Mardi Gras has the Bolt coaster however this features on all three of the ships being delivered for CCL in the class.

 

Turning to some of the other "destination-ship" activities on ship, it was the 2006 Freedom Class which debuted the ice skating rink, rockwall together with the FlowRider. The 2009 Oasis Class added the Ultimate Abyss flume slides and the 2014 Quantum Class introduced RipCord and Northern Star but dropped the ice skating rink and rockwall.

 

What you'll note here is that with the exception of the Freedom Class features, those activities are all on ships which are significantly bigger than Arvia. Most of the features are also included at the expense of an aft pool / sunbathing space - all of which is still highly sought after on P&O ships.

 

The Americans are known for keeping busy and not sunbathing as much as us Brits. They are also happy to pay for the premium RipCord / FlowRider / Northern Star experiences which help finance these activities in the first place. I'm not sure that works as well in the UK. Speaking with a friend at RCI, Anthem of the Seas, when based out of Southampton, doesn't sell those experiences as well as the rest of the fleet.

 

I would argue that family cruising in the UK is 15 years behind the US. On that basis, our ships should be keeping pace with the Freedom Class. Arvia is. OK she has no ice rink but she has dedicated cinemas and an escape room. She has the waterworks up top. She is the 2022 equivalent of the Freedom Class.

 

So for those who keep asking why there are not more "destination ship" activities on P&O, I ask you this - do you want their ships to be 20-40% bigger again?

If as you say, the Iona was built to serve Norway then it was  a decision made by people who should be dispensed with. It is too big to go in some ports and not safe in others (weather etc). Did they ever check if it would be suitable? I  think not.

[Bazrat]

The more activity you have on the deck the less space you have for sunbathing, which would put us off. after watching some videos from a couple of lads, who said there was plenty of space on deck underneath the rollercoaster thing I had to laugh.

[Britboys]

3 hours ago, FamilyCruiserUK said:

I didnt know they didnt market outside of the UK. However i believe when families have a choice they will learn towards other brands. Those same brands who are expanding into the british market. UK/European cruises.  So back to the OP are the ships too big. No, like any business you need to diversify and have options for all cruise passengers.

But you could argue that with ships ranging from 76,000 tons taking 1800 pax to 184,000 tons taking over 5200 pax there are options for most cruise passengers...

[Britboys]

1 hour ago, Yorkypete said:

'Iona and Arvia were the only ships available to order'. Does that mean you can only order what is available and not necessarily what you want? Are shipbuilers saying to cruise lines you can only order what we want to build and not what you may want?

No but the big cruise lines work with the shipbuilders and agree to buy x-number of ships all built on the same platform. That keeps costs down. Hence my comment earlier about Iona/Arvia being two of pretty much a 9 ship order.

[Britboys]

1 hour ago, Megabear2 said:

It seems likely! Look at Queen Anne, as far away from a traditional Cunard ship as you can get.

She is based on the HAL Pinnacle Class template. Of course, Elizabeth and Victoria are based on the Vista Class, like Arcadia.

[FangedRose]

2 hours ago, terrierjohn said:

The flowrider is free on RCI unless you pay for a private lesson, also free are  the water slides, rock climbing, bumper cars, sky diving, carousel rides, ice skating, the ultimate abyss, zip lining. 

The cruise price may be higher but pre covid Indy always sailed full, so many Brits were prepared to pay extra for something that was a bit special compared to P&O.

 

Not technically free. As you say the cruises that have these things are more expensive.  So I would be paying for things that I would not be using.

[JDB78]

I also think a couple of water slides would have been good for Arvia. As people have said, would divert some kids + young people away from the main pools. Also I wouldn't have thought a water slide would cost a lot to build or maintain. A flo-rider, an ice rink or massive outdoor movie screen, I get why P&O would be reluctant, a couple of water slides? Surely just a question of space.

 

Looking forward to sailing on Arvia next year as looks like there are a few different facilities that are not on the other ships, but P&O could have pushed the kids facilities a little bit more imo.

[Bazrat]

2 hours ago, JDB78 said:

I also think a couple of water slides would have been good for Arvia. As people have said, would divert some kids + young people away from the main pools. Also I wouldn't have thought a water slide would cost a lot to build or maintain. A flo-rider, an ice rink or massive outdoor movie screen, I get why P&O would be reluctant, a couple of water slides? Surely just a question of space.

 

Looking forward to sailing on Arvia next year as looks like there are a few different facilities that are not on the other ships, but P&O could have pushed the kids facilities a little bit more imo.

Outdoor movie screens I am all for, there was one on explorer 2 me and the beloved sat outside in the evening watching it, with a few blankets and hot drinks it was the Mediterranean nothing better.

[terrierjohn]

1 hour ago, Bazrat said:

Outdoor movie screens I am all for, there was one on explorer 2 me and the beloved sat outside in the evening watching it, with a few blankets and hot drinks it was the Mediterranean nothing better.

I think I have seen a rendition of Arvia's Skydome area with a big screen in it?