Another NCL change that I hope Royal doesn't follow

[Husky1987]

1 hour ago, big al said:

And RCI charges $80-100 PP for a drink package and that's better?? I am going on the Mariner next week and they want $92 pp PER DAY and you think NCL is bad because they charge gratuities up front? In case you are bad at math, that's between $1120 and  about $1300 for a 7 night cruise for 2 people, vs $237.50 pp for NCL and you get much better beer choices..You don't have to take the "Free at Sea " package if you don't want it..I paid $ 9.65 for a Stella on the Anthem of the Seas 3 years ago..ridiculous... ..no matter how you look at it, the deal at NCL is better UNLESS you don't drink much at all, in that case you are at fault..NCL in my 7 cruises has never given me anything other great food, great service, OUTDOOR dining ( something RCI needs badly..), great entertainment ( Beatle's show super..)..I cruise royal because I like their Oasis class ships & shows...beverage plans suck , no free specialty dining, no WIFI, no nothing included..they need to get with it- even Celebrity, their other cruise line, I have free beverage package with them & free WIFI for my NYE cruise in December......

I'm impressed that someone would choose to spend a week on a cruise line that sucks for a couple hours of Mamma Mia or Hairspray.

 

To each his/her own I guess.

[rolloman]

1 hour ago, big al said:

And RCI charges $80-100 PP for a drink package and that's better?? I am going on the Mariner next week and they want $92 pp PER DAY and you think NCL is bad because they charge gratuities up front? In case you are bad at math, that's between $1120 and  about $1300 for a 7 night cruise for 2 people, vs $237.50 pp for NCL and you get much better beer choices..You don't have to take the "Free at Sea " package if you don't want it..I paid $ 9.65 for a Stella on the Anthem of the Seas 3 years ago..ridiculous... ..no matter how you look at it, the deal at NCL is better UNLESS you don't drink much at all, in that case you are at fault..NCL in my 7 cruises has never given me anything other great food, great service, OUTDOOR dining ( something RCI needs badly..), great entertainment ( Beatle's show super..)..I cruise royal because I like their Oasis class ships & shows...beverage plans suck , no free specialty dining, no WIFI, no nothing included..they need to get with it- even Celebrity, their other cruise line, I have free beverage package with them & free WIFI for my NYE cruise in December......

I don't need the drink package...I get 5 free drinks a day in the loyalty program, and I get free internet...unlike the NCL program which is basically non- existent...outdoor dining lol... ridiculous...wind...heat... nobody eats outdoors...well...maybe except for you.

[coaster]

1 hour ago, big al said:

have you dined outside on deck 8 with a table over looking the sunset at sea eating steak & lobster on the new ships?? 

Eating outside the Radiance class ships aft of Windjammer is great also. NCL does not own the option to eat outside. You probably paid extra to eat steak and lobster also as NCL does not include lobster in the MDR like Royal.

[Biker19]

"

Carnival Corporation, Royal Caribbean Group and Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings are on pace to spend roughly $2 billion on food and beverage items in 2023, according to Cruise Industry News estimates.

 

This is based on third quarter spending this year, which saw Carnival spend $259 million, Royal come in at $195 million and Norwegian at $77 million.

 

Compared to the last “normal year” in 2019, food spending was up at Royal Caribbean Group and Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings. The former spent roughly $150 million on food in the third quarter of 2019, while Norwegian spent $57 million.

 

Both companies have seen fleet expansion since then. Royal Caribbean Group not only completed its acquisition of Silversea but has welcomed a number of new big ships such as the Wonder of the Seas, Celebrity Apex and Celebrity Beyond."

 

Big Three Cruise Corporations Set to Spend $2 Billion Food in 2023 - Cruise Industry News | Cruise News

[time4u2go]

20 minutes ago, Biker19 said:

"

Carnival Corporation, Royal Caribbean Group and Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings are on pace to spend roughly $2 billion on food and beverage items in 2023, according to Cruise Industry News estimates.

 

This is based on third quarter spending this year, which saw Carnival spend $259 million, Royal come in at $195 million and Norwegian at $77 million.

 

Compared to the last “normal year” in 2019, food spending was up at Royal Caribbean Group and Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings. The former spent roughly $150 million on food in the third quarter of 2019, while Norwegian spent $57 million.

 

Both companies have seen fleet expansion since then. Royal Caribbean Group not only completed its acquisition of Silversea but has welcomed a number of new big ships such as the Wonder of the Seas, Celebrity Apex and Celebrity Beyond."

 

Big Three Cruise Corporations Set to Spend $2 Billion Food in 2023 - Cruise Industry News | Cruise News

Not sure what they mean by "on pace to spend roughly $2 billion on food and beverage items in 2023".  Do they mean 2022?

 

Either way, I'd be curious to know what the per passenger spending is in 2022 versus 2019 (adjusted for inflation).

[PWP-001]

On 8/13/2022 at 7:27 PM, rolloman said:

I don't need the drink package...I get 5 free drinks a day in the loyalty program, and I get free internet...unlike the NCL program which is basically non- existent...outdoor dining lol... ridiculous...wind...heat... nobody eats outdoors...well...maybe except for you.

"hello" and a shout out from us here in the big world, and home to the open-minded with a view to the bigger picture.  Come joint us!

 

Lot's of people enjoy outdoor dining... not only on NCL, but also I can tell you that Princess promotes In Room Dining packages for balcony dining.  

 

Now, speaking more generally after reading ALL the entries in this thread....

 

ALL the lines are making changes, cuts and adjustments aimed at increasing their chances of survival as they deal with massive debt piled on during COVID shutdown and their re-starts which carried a much more slim profit margin as they were graceful with cancelation/change requests and operated at reduced capacity.  Now the public seems more comfortable with sailing post COVID, given fuller (if not sold out) ships.  Where there's high demand.... there's room for a price increase-- or a service cut to improve profitability.

 

There's a lot of passenger moaning & groaning (I heart CC).... but people are still buying.  And as long as enough people keep buying, they'll continue to raise prices and cut service.

 

Will it stop?  Yes?  When?  For the indebted American Consumer, it will be sometime in 2023 as they finally come to terms with the variable interest rate most of their credit cards carry and how most of that payment is going to finance their debt rather than pay it down.  And for Europeans, this winter's heating bill will take a big bite out of their discretionary spending.

 

Then they'll be a swing by the lines to attract more passengers they've lost through service improvements they introduce in their belief it gives them a competitive edge.  And of course, more sales and discounts.

 

Until that tipping point... all the rants and tyrants about another cut won't do much as we keeping buy and cruising. 

[Nunagoras]

1 hour ago, PWP-001 said:

"hello" and a shout out from us here in the big world, and home to the open-minded with a view to the bigger picture.  Come joint us!

 

Lot's of people enjoy outdoor dining... not only on NCL, but also I can tell you that Princess promotes In Room Dining packages for balcony dining.  

 

Now, speaking more generally after reading ALL the entries in this thread....

 

ALL the lines are making changes, cuts and adjustments aimed at increasing their chances of survival as they deal with massive debt piled on during COVID shutdown and their re-starts which carried a much more slim profit margin as they were graceful with cancelation/change requests and operated at reduced capacity.  Now the public seems more comfortable with sailing post COVID, given fuller (if not sold out) ships.  Where there's high demand.... there's room for a price increase-- or a service cut to improve profitability.

 

There's a lot of passenger moaning & groaning (I heart CC).... but people are still buying.  And as long as enough people keep buying, they'll continue to raise prices and cut service.

 

Will it stop?  Yes?  When?  For the indebted American Consumer, it will be sometime in 2023 as they finally come to terms with the variable interest rate most of their credit cards carry and how most of that payment is going to finance their debt rather than pay it down.  And for Europeans, this winter's heating bill will take a big bite out of their discretionary spending.

 

Then they'll be a swing by the lines to attract more passengers they've lost through service improvements they introduce in their belief it gives them a competitive edge.  And of course, more sales and discounts.

 

Until that tipping point... all the rants and tyrants about another cut won't do much as we keeping buy and cruising. 

This exactly! I'd just to add that currently cruise ships are far understaffed to what should to be the bare minimum necessary to provide before Covid time service, to let alone ideal service!... And they aren't understaffed because companies want to cut on services so that they become more profitable. They are understaffed because companies aren't able to hire more than what they're hiring right now!

 

Once cruising is one of my favorite interests; I'm receiving most of the cruising industry's advertising on my social media's feeds. All kinds of adverts from cruises on sale to financial market adverts, to crew hiring ones. It amazes me the huge number of adverts for hiring cruise crew members they're all doing lately!... I've never seen those numbers before. I receive adverts for pretty much all positions that maybe, except for Captains!... I could fill several entire Oasis Class ship's crews out of just a day of adverts I see there! Some are specific for some of the usual cruise labor markets you can find aboard the ships, but a growing number of positions are now being offered in the first world as well, and not only for machine engineers and the likes. cooks, pastry chefs, whatever else one can imagine! Directly from cruise lines headquarters!...

 

Like you, I believe that the mainstream market will come to normal during 2023, perhaps late summer, IMHO, when all those FCC's now "distorting" the market would to be over and the current economic crisis effects becomes more visible than now. But that won't change the crew shortage scenario. Measures to at least control the talent shortage at middle to higher positions will continue to be prevalent. It's not cruise lines desire; it is what the market is devolving into. This will endure, at least for the next 3 to 5 years... Reduced menus? Fact of life. Upcharge for certain items? Possibly. Venue changing? Time will tell...

 

Have a nice day!...

[Spurschick]

On 8/10/2022 at 8:39 AM, tx121 said:

NCL has revolutionized the cruise industry in the freestyle concept and most of the maintstrean cruise lines have adapted it in some way in their business model. It seems like most of NCL's practices are just a cash grab and in the past has had the reputation of the "nickel and diming" cruise line. Thanks to NCL, some of the cruise lines over the years have downgraded the quality of food in the main dining room so people would rather spend money on the specialty restaurants to get better quality food. Now NCL is rolling out on their newest ships and soon after their entire fleet where the main dining room is going to have the same menu every day and smaller buffet options. I really hope Royal doesn't follow this change. I enjoy going in to the MDR and seeing a different menu every night and having many different options in the Windjammer. Would you second guess cruising on Royal if they made this change?

I tried this on Prima and it was actually very good. 
 

It was actually a good menu and there was a daily special that changed daily. This was better because what they did was execute it very, very well with excellent quality 

 

In addition, whilst the buffet was small, the indulge food hall was magnificent in terms of options and choices.

 

Before you “blame” NCL for the Prima downgrading food, maybe you should try it as it was far superior to MDR we have had on RC in a long long time.

 

I could argue that RC nickel and dime everyone with charges at CocoCay

Edited November 30, 2022 by Spurschick

[PWP-001]

9 hours ago, Spurschick said:

 

 

I could argue that RC nickel and dime everyone with charges at CocoCay

It's very easy to enjoy a comfortable day at Coco Cay without spending a nickel or dime.

There's plenty of free loungers and umbrellas, several beach options to swim as well as a huge pool.  Hungry?  There's a wide selection of complimentary food.

Thirsty?  There's the usual beverage options found in Windjammer, all complimentary.

 

 To Nickel & Dime would be to charge for cheese on your burger, guacamole for your tacos, an umbrella for your lounger, ice for your drinks.

 

Want to spend money?  Sure you can:

 

Enjoy a waterpark  at a price that can sometimes exceed a day at a Disney park:  $150

Relax in a private beach club for your visit:  $179

Basque in luxury on a floating cabana:  $4,000

 

That's not "Nickel & Dime"-ing.  That's fleecing!   

 

[PWP-001]

11 hours ago, Nunagoras said:

 

 

Like you, I believe that the mainstream market will come to normal during 2023, perhaps late summer, IMHO, when all those FCC's now "distorting" the market would to be over and the current economic crisis effects becomes more visible than now. But that won't change the crew shortage scenario. 

 

Have a nice day!...

I completely forgot about this, which I personally experience with Virgin Voyages, though the same applies for RCI.

 

In my case, I had booked a $4,000 suite for one of Virgin's first scheduled sailings out of Miami at the end of March 2020.  Before the government shut down, Virgin decided to push back their launch until July 2020, so they gave me two choices:  get a full refund and a 25% ($1,000 FCC)  -or- a 200% FCC ($8,000) if I didn't ask for a refund.  

 

Imagine the deposit liability on the books if most people opted for the 200%!  Especially as everyone used those credits during the next twelve months.  Where's the cash to pay cruise line expenses for food, beverage, labor and fuel, if everyone is simply consuming their credits?

 

The 200% I'm pretty sure was unique to VV's situation, and I didn't have any cruises booked on RCI to know if they had incentives to keep the deposits.  The principal remains that all of those FCC's --higher than normal-- disrupted cash flows.

Raise prices so that FCC's aren't enough to cover the cruise is one way.  That COVID canceled cruise that cost $1,000 became a FCC of $1,000.  Two years later, it's really not as painful to fork over $300 along with the FCC to pay for the now priced $1,300 cruise.  Many reason, "I'm getting a great deal, paying only $300 for this cruise.

[rbschultz]

On 8/10/2022 at 8:57 AM, Biker19 said:

Perhaps you don't remember Dynamic Dining.

I remember it! I was on one of those Quantum cruises where it still existed, and honestly it wasn't THAT bad. The biggest issue I had with it was that with the change they also cut staffing. This caused bussing areas to pile up with dirty dishes, poor overworked waiters, and upset customers.

 

On the flip-side, my cruise also had the kitchens go down one day which prompted Royal to open the bars for everyone as compensation.

[Spurschick]

4 hours ago, PWP-001 said:

It's very easy to enjoy a comfortable day at Coco Cay without spending a nickel or dime.

There's plenty of free loungers and umbrellas, several beach options to swim as well as a huge pool.  Hungry?  There's a wide selection of complimentary food.

Thirsty?  There's the usual beverage options found in Windjammer, all complimentary.

 

 To Nickel & Dime would be to charge for cheese on your burger, guacamole for your tacos, an umbrella for your lounger, ice for your drinks.

 

Want to spend money?  Sure you can:

 

Enjoy a waterpark  at a price that can sometimes exceed a day at a Disney park:  $150

Relax in a private beach club for your visit:  $179

Basque in luxury on a floating cabana:  $4,000

 

That's not "Nickel & Dime"-ing.  That's fleecing!   

 

True, however old Cococay days if you were in a suite or had Pinnacle status there was an area you could go to for a more elevated experience. Labadee has Barefoot Beach for Suites/Pinnacles CocoCay has nothing anymore. 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Spurschick

[LinRon3]

Just gotta say this.  We've heard this term 'nickel and dime' for a long time now, and we don't see it that way [the term].  We are budget cruisers who want to cruise as often as we can.  Watch Emma Cruises vlog, and you'll get the viewpoint we have; in a word, CHEAP, ha.  Point here, nickel and dimeing to us just means 'CHOICES'.   By keeping fares lower and allowing some, like us, to make CHOICES after we board, well, it means we can cruise when otherwise we'd be locked out.  So, yea, we like this 'nickel and dimeing' [sic] as we do CHOOSE to splurge sometimes if we want, but more often, we like to save our bucks for more cruises.  Just a point of view I thought I'd point out.  From a business view, I think more people they can bring aboard by keeping fares as low as possible and not all inclusive, will mean more consuming overall and $$.  There's plenty of options for 'all inclusives' it looks like anyway.  Now...to steal your lounge!! LOL

[PWP-001]

5 hours ago, LinRon3 said:

Just gotta say this.  We've heard this term 'nickel and dime' for a long time now, and we don't see it that way [the term].  We are budget cruisers who want to cruise as often as we can.  Watch Emma Cruises vlog, and you'll get the viewpoint we have; in a word, CHEAP, ha.  Point here, nickel and dimeing to us just means 'CHOICES'.   By keeping fares lower and allowing some, like us, to make CHOICES after we board, well, it means we can cruise when otherwise we'd be locked out.  So, yea, we like this 'nickel and dimeing' [sic] as we do CHOOSE to splurge sometimes if we want, but more often, we like to save our bucks for more cruises.  Just a point of view I thought I'd point out.  From a business view, I think more people they can bring aboard by keeping fares as low as possible and not all inclusive, will mean more consuming overall and $$.  There's plenty of options for 'all inclusives' it looks like anyway.  Now...to steal your lounge!! LOL

The vlogger you mentioned is great and I enjoy watching her videos as she's pleasant, always smiling, delivers useful information and is honest and forward about her intentions to cruise on a budget.

 

But picture this actual scene from another cruise line from the cruise line's point of view.  it was a 15 day full crossing of the Panama Canal and every 3-4 days for an hour the line would host a party with entertainment in the multilevel atrium, passing one particular alcoholic beverage based upon the theme.  Just show up and drink as much as you like.

 

I was with my group enjoying pre dinner cocktails in one of the lounges off the atrium when 15 minutes before the party, 3 couples, bones creaking, plopped down at the next table.  The polite cocktail server approached and asked if she could get them a beverage.  The answer:  "We want the free drinks."  

"Sir, that won't start until x:00.  Can I bring you something until then?"

"No, we'll wait for the free drinks."

So they displaced potential revenue guests and demanded the cocktail server take away from her time earning drink revenue for the ship and gratuities for herself.

 

For the line, every passenger is a "buying unit" who will hopefully enhance the profitability of the cruise by buying goods and services.  The very cheap fares for room and board sometimes aren't enough to cover the costs (food mostly) that can be consumed.

 

Right now, cabins are looked at as a perishable commodity, similar to airline seats and hotel rooms.  If on a particular cruise a cabin sails empty, the opportunity to earn income from the cabin is lost.  Sure, they can make money from the cabin on the next cruise, but they always could do that; they just can't go back in time to earn money once the ship has sailed.

 

So the attitude is focus on filling the ship, and maybe they'll buy something.  I believe that within this decade we'll see a shift to fine-tune profitability and perhaps price out those "buying units" who don't spend anything.

 

Right now, Royal Up is designed to maximize cabin yield by collecting the most revenue a passenger is willing to pay for a better cabin.

 

Next the focus will be on analysis of post-cruise data, looking at the relationship between fare paid and money spent on incidentals. 

 

One day the lightbulb will glow and the analysts will conclude that it doesn't make economic sense to offer the dirt cheap prices because xx% of those passengers don't spend another nickel or dime.  There will be less worry over trying to cover the fixed labor costs.  It could actually be cheaper through food cost savings just not to have those low fare passengers on board who spend nothing and drive up food cost.

 

Perhaps it is more profitable to sail consistently at 80% to 90% focusing on passengers who are profitable to the line.  Price out the non-spending buying units, while providing a more comfortable cruise environment with less crowding and better service.  

 

What are those profitability price points and occupancy levels?  The data will need to determine what can work.  And when they figure that out, then the smart lines will make the changes.

 

I hope Emma is saving all of her videos.  Because in her retirement years, many years in the future, they may be the only images of cheap cruising.

 

As an aside to LinRon3, if you're going to call out my spelling as erroneous by using [sic] then do it properly.  I intentionally placed "Nickel & Dime" in quotes to express a concept, then hyphenated the "ing" to set up the poetic effect of using the word fleecing.  I never typed "dimeing" as you imply or did yourself as highlighted in red above.