Bait & Switch - Itinerary Change

[Cruise Suzy]

7 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

I wonder if that is to cover port fees.  HAL usually returns those fees but not all lines do.   I doubt a claim would be successful unless you can show true economic damages 

 

It is in addition to any returned port fees/taxes. Did not have to prove any economic loss.

[eggemon]

45 minutes ago, Diver2014 said:

Not that this will help the OP much but Key West just isn't what everyone expects it to be.  It's a tourist town with plenty of land travelers let alone a few ship loads of more tourists.  There's just not that much to see there.  You can wander around Duvall Street amongst the t shirt and sunglass shops or visit the aquarium or Mel Fisher's gold treasure museum but that's it.  Unless you want to sit on the waterfront and have cocktails and watch the boats go by all day.  Going on a cruise just to see Key West is setting oneself up for disappointment. IMHO.

(I know we are a bit off the original topic here, but...) Your opinion is as legit as mine - we all see the world in our own way - but I do have a different perspective.

 

As a native of Key West, i.e., a Conch, I do not agree that there is not much to see. I will totally agree that it can be difficult to see it if you arrive on a cruise ship - the things that are within easy walking distance are not necessarily the best things to see. There is much history, beauty, good food, excellent adventures, and generally great weather to experience; not all of it is in the downtown area.

 

So, by way of agreeing with several others, you will likely enjoy a land visit more than a rushed cruise ship stop.

 

Note, it has been almost 50 years since I lived in Key West, but I do have family there, own property there, and visit often. It is a hard - and expensive - place to live, but an interesting place to visit IMHO.

 

(End of my unpaid commercial for the Conch Republic... 🙂)

 

I feel for the OP - it is unfortunate that the cruise lines keep pushing Key West itineraries and then change them later. The new "one ship a day" rule is the reason for that, but it certainly creates an aggravation for cruisers and it seems there should be a better "system" to figure out which sailings will get the chance to actually dock in Key West.

 

[PACD_JG]

3 minutes ago, eggemon said:

As a native of Key West, i.e., a Conch, I do not agree that there is not much to see. I will totally agree that it can be difficult to see it if you arrive on a cruise ship - the things that are within easy walking distance are not necessarily the best things to see. There is much history, beauty, good food, excellent adventures, and generally great weather to experience; not all of it is in the downtown area.

 

I lived in Key West from 82-89.  My perspective might have been different since I was a teen, but here's my take on Cayo Hueso....I haven't been there since I graduated high school in 1989.  We used to say this about folks in Key West...you're either gay, Cuban, or Navy.  YMMV.

[ontheweb]

3 hours ago, five. said:

 

I had not heard what is in this thread about Key West residents disliking cruise ships. So I let the wife know that we'd know to go land based in order to enjoy Key West in the future.

You can read about it here.

 

Key West Doesn’t Want Your Big Cruise Ships - Outside Online

[Daniel A]

17 hours ago, RD64 said:

The question remains…. If Key West was such an integral component of your vacation experience - the one thing that was going to make you happy - why did you not just book a week long hotel stay in Key West? 

Do you know how much a weeklong stay at a hotel in KW would cost?  IMHO, unless you want to drink a lot, there's not enough to do in KW to fill a week of tourism.  Stopping at KW on a cruise ship opens up one of the cities of this country to people who are not one-percenters.  It's more a matter of the wealthy wanting to keep out the 'riff raff', than eco concerns.

[Guest ldtr]

Prior to Covid the Keywest experience was dramatically different when ships were in town vs when they were not. When ships were in town the down town aread was extremely over crowded, when ships where not in port it was a  pleasant place to visit.

 

Cruise ships carried 50% percent of the visitors but provided only about 10% of the tourism revenue.

 

Over the years as more and larger  cruise ships started coming, the very nature of the down town changed. With businesses that were more diverse, and provided items for both tourists and locals, getting replaced by multiples of the cruise ship focused businesses. Now instead of unique shops you have multiples of the same type shops as the other carribbean ports.

[barb-ottawa]

Received emails this morning from HAL that both my January and February sailings on the Nieuw Statendam have dropped Key West and added Nassau in addition to other changes. On one sailing, they switched days to Aruba and Curacao. Not a huge deal, but sure screws up the excursions booked in each port.

[Guest ldtr]

1 hour ago, Daniel A said:

Do you know how much a weeklong stay at a hotel in KW would cost?  IMHO, unless you want to drink a lot, there's not enough to do in KW to fill a week of tourism.  Stopping at KW on a cruise ship opens up one of the cities of this country to people who are not one-percenters.  It's more a matter of the wealthy wanting to keep out the 'riff raff', than eco concerns.

Actually quite a bit to do in Key West. From fishing, to snorkeling, to all kinds of other primarily out door activities.  Of course these days most cruising only see the bars, jewelry stores, t shirt shops, and the multitude of key lime pie shops. A day trip over to Dry Tortugas is interesting

 

Some do not want large cruise ships for environmental reasons, some do not like the impact on their town and quality of life, some do not like how it's negatively impacts over night tourism which provided most of the towns tourism revenue.

 

Not unlike other places such as Bar Harbour,  Bora Bora,  Dubrovnik, etc. Even some large cities are putting on limits. 

Edited November 10, 2022 by ldtr

[Wakepatrol]

I think we’re nibbling around the edges here. If you were a local,

would you like to look at 5,000 pairs of these a day?

[Guest ldtr]

3 hours ago, eggemon said:

(I know we are a bit off the original topic here, but...) Your opinion is as legit as mine - we all see the world in our own way - but I do have a different perspective.

 

As a native of Key West, i.e., a Conch, I do not agree that there is not much to see. I will totally agree that it can be difficult to see it if you arrive on a cruise ship - the things that are within easy walking distance are not necessarily the best things to see. There is much history, beauty, good food, excellent adventures, and generally great weather to experience; not all of it is in the downtown area.

 

So, by way of agreeing with several others, you will likely enjoy a land visit more than a rushed cruise ship stop.

 

Note, it has been almost 50 years since I lived in Key West, but I do have family there, own property there, and visit often. It is a hard - and expensive - place to live, but an interesting place to visit IMHO.

 

(End of my unpaid commercial for the Conch Republic... 🙂)

 

I feel for the OP - it is unfortunate that the cruise lines keep pushing Key West itineraries and then change them later. The new "one ship a day" rule is the reason for that, but it certainly creates an aggravation for cruisers and it seems there should be a better "system" to figure out which sailings will get the chance to actually dock in Key West.

 

There are 3 docks in Key West, two operated by the city and  a private dock. The city, in accordance with the vote has limited ship size that can use those docks. Due to the State law change (and a poorly written contract  when the private port was originaly approved) they cannot limit the private dock. As such large ships can still use that one dock. 

[Seasick Sailor]

Shoot. I'm sorry you will miss Key West. We've driven down through the keys and stayed with friends in Duck Key. The key's are much fun!

 

I would suggest to cruiser's having a stop here on their itinerary,  not to book their cruise based on Key West alone.

[five.]

5 minutes ago, ldtr said:

As such large ships can still use that one dock.

Is there any rhyme or reason to the pattern of the ships that do dock or is it completely random? Even with only one dock, they could tender guests in I guess.

 

But yea, to the person that commented, why is Key West still on the web site as a choice if it's not really a destination anymore? That's the main issue I have with all of this. We would have definitely chosen something else.

 

We are now Nassau, Amber Cove, Grand Turk, HMC.

[gilboman]

On 11/9/2022 at 6:11 AM, teh3505 said:

Just book my cruise last Friday - Key West, Falmouth Jamaica, Cayman Islands & Half Moon Cay,  This morning I wake up to email from HA telling me due to operational reasons the call to Key West has been replaced with Bimini, Bahamas.  I am not happy with the change.  I booked it because of the Key West stop.  I have never heard of Bimini before...Very Disappointed!!.  Also no on board credit to off set the itinerary change.  This is my first time cruising with HA and it will be my last.

meh..sounds like cruising is not for you then. this is pretty common regardless of cruiseline 

 

just like airlines changing flight times. 

[Guest ldtr]

1 hour ago, five. said:

Is there any rhyme or reason to the pattern of the ships that do dock or is it completely random? Even with only one dock, they could tender guests in I guess.

 

But yea, to the person that commented, why is Key West still on the web site as a choice if it's not really a destination anymore? That's the main issue I have with all of this. We would have definitely chosen something else.

 

We are now Nassau, Amber Cove, Grand Turk, HMC.

If there is multiple large ships showing up on the port schedule on a given day it appears that Celebrity and smaller Royal Caribbean ships seems to be the one that actually go there.

 

For the ports that gave started limiting cruise ships, the cruise lines seem to keep the ports on their schedule until they are officially notified that they will not be able to dock. If the port has been scheduled prior to a change in law, they do not seem to go out of their way to confirm that they will not be able to stop, but instead wait until they are notified that their previously allowed stop will not be allowed.

[rothbury]

I equate Nassau to be the "armpit" of the Bahamas.  If I was going there, I wouldn't even leave the ship.  Back in the 1970's it was a nice port but the last time we were there we couldn't get back to the ship quick enough.  I think where I would have a problem is with paying for Key West and getting Nassau.  That is like paying for 5-star experience and getting a 1-star substitute.  Just think for a minute that if the tendering couldn't happen in HMC or Grand Cayman, almost your entire cruise would be onboard a ship.  Might not be all that bad if you had the HIA beverage package.

[Daniel A]

12 minutes ago, rothbury said:

I equate Nassau to be the "armpit" of the Bahamas.  If I was going there, I wouldn't even leave the ship.  Back in the 1970's it was a nice port but the last time we were there we couldn't get back to the ship quick enough.  I think where I would have a problem is with paying for Key West and getting Nassau.  That is like paying for 5-star experience and getting a 1-star substitute.  Just think for a minute that if the tendering couldn't happen in HMC or Grand Cayman, almost your entire cruise would be onboard a ship.  Might not be all that bad if you had the HIA beverage package.

This thread is further justification for the expense of getting Cancel For Any Reason insurance.  Not going to your favored port at the last days before sailing is a good reason to try a different itinerary.  I booked a cruise going to Bora Bora but at the time CFAR insurance wasn't available in New York State.  Just like Key West, and Bar Harbor, (another locality that only wants wealthy visitors), Bora Bora did the same thing.  There's an old concept that when people move to their 'paradise' location, they want to 'burn the bridge' so they don't have to share it with others.  Very selfish people think this way.

[Guest ldtr]

48 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

This thread is further justification for the expense of getting Cancel For Any Reason insurance.  Not going to your favored port at the last days before sailing is a good reason to try a different itinerary.  I booked a cruise going to Bora Bora but at the time CFAR insurance wasn't available in New York State.  Just like Key West, and Bar Harbor, (another locality that only wants wealthy visitors), Bora Bora did the same thing.  There's an old concept that when people move to their 'paradise' location, they want to 'burn the bridge' so they don't have to share it with others.  Very selfish people think this way.

Or maybe too many people overcrowding the limited space and facilities is detrimental to both the community and the area.

 

Many cruisers do not notice it because it is an experience similar what they are used too in many ports. On the other hand the locals that do know the difference between the experience between large cruise ships are in town and at other times certainly do know the difference.

 

How many same o same o ports do we need with the exact same stores run by the exact same companies in every port from Alaska to the Carribbean. Many ports used to be unique now the ports themselves are basically the same and the differences are only when you get away from the cruise ship ports themselves.

 

The cruise lines have largely brought these responses upon themselves  as they retire smaller ships and builder ever larger ships.  Basically they will keep dumping an ever increasing number of passengers from an ever increasing number of ships, until the locals say enough.

 

Things are rapidly turning ports into those that feel that they are dependent upon cruising, and those that are not.

 Those that are not are increasingly putting limits on number of passengers  The others are becoming cookie cutter ports that are really not worth visiting.  Many are still in the middle but will decide over the next few years. One of the reasons that cruiselines are investing in private ports.

 

 even large cities such as Barcelona are starting to draw lines ans establish limits.

 

The ships sizes will mean fewer unique ports in the future for most of the main stream lines.

 

Bigger ships, less varied shorter itineraries is the direction of the main stream lines.

Edited November 10, 2022 by ldtr

[Vic The Parrot]

3 hours ago, Wakepatrol said:

I think we’re nibbling around the edges here. If you were a local,

would you like to look at 5,000 pairs of these a day?

Eeeww!! 

That's all I have to say. LOL

[Hlitner]

17 minutes ago, Vic The Parrot said:

Eeeww!! 

That's all I have to say. LOL

ROFL.  When we sit on our condo balcony in Puerto Vallarta, DW enjoys gazing down at the Malecon and people watching.   It is fun to pick out cruisers (many do stand out in a crowd).  Some things to look for are fanny packs, sandals with socks, carrying a bottle of water, over dressed, etc.  It is fascinating that in a city where there are many tourists, cruisers often have a unique way about themselves.  But the socks are usually a big giveaway.  

 

Hank

[Florida_gal_50]

Socks with sandals……why🤪?  

[Vic The Parrot]

43 minutes ago, Florida_gal_50 said:

Socks with sandals……why🤪?  

I know, right?

 

It's the same thing when I see someone driving a convertible with the top down and the windows rolled up. 😱😡 

 

Why even bother ...  

[Copper10-8]

7 hours ago, Wakepatrol said:

I think we’re nibbling around the edges here. If you were a local,

would you like to look at 5,000 pairs of these a day?

 

Those bad boys would be a hit at the "Orange Party" on the dam ships, just sayin'..............🤪

[Guest ldtr]

The following dates are ones that show a HAL ship scheduled to be in Key West on the same day as another large ship.  As such they have a very high potential to being changed.  There are other prot calls scheduled by HAL ships that do not show conflicts with other large ships.

 

Dec 9   NS and Celebrity Summit

2023

Jan 9   NA and  RC Grandeur of the Seas

Jan 15 NS and Celebrity Summit

Jan 27  NS and RC Brilliance of the Seas

Mar 12  NS and  Celebrity Summit

Mar 24  NS and RC Brilliance of the Seas

Mar 25 NA and Celebrity Silhouette

Dec 8  NA and Eurodam and Celebrity Summit

Dec 15 NA and Celebrity Silhouette

2024

Jan 12  NA, Eurodam and  Norwegian Gem

Feb 23 Eurodam and Celebrity Silhouette

Mar 15 Eurodam and Celebrity Summit

Apr 5  NA and Celebrity Silhouette

April 18 Rotterdam and Virgin Scarlet Lady

 

 

 

[Daniel A]

17 hours ago, ldtr said:

Cruise ships carried 50% percent of the visitors but provided only about 10% of the tourism revenue.

 

Over the years as more and larger  cruise ships started coming, the very nature of the down town changed. With businesses that were more diverse, and provided items for both tourists and locals, getting replaced by multiples of the cruise ship focused businesses. Now instead of unique shops you have multiples of the same type shops as the other carribbean ports.

 

14 hours ago, ldtr said:

Or maybe too many people overcrowding the limited space and facilities is detrimental to both the community and the area.

 

How many same o same o ports do we need with the exact same stores run by the exact same companies in every port from Alaska to the Carribbean. Many ports used to be unique now the ports themselves are basically the same and the differences are only when you get away from the cruise ship ports themselves.

 

I do appreciate your views on the attempted Key West cruise ship ban.  I take note that your arguments in favor of the ban make no mention of the 'environmental' reasons which the lobbyists in KW threw against the wall to make a ban stick through a referendum.  There was no mention of crowds on Duvall Street or cheap tourists displacing wealthier tourists, but I suspect you have articulated the real reasons behind the attempted ban.

 

I note that you state that cruise tourists only contribute 10% of the tourism dollars in one sentence yet you decry the large infusion of "multiples of the cruise ship focused businesses."  I doubt that corporations would invest in marketing to cruise ship passengers if they don't spend very much money.  Do you see the contradiction in your excuses justifying KW banning cruise ships except for the cruise lines that are the higher end ones that only the wealthy can afford?  I will continue to believe that the main reason behind the whole ban issue is that the Parrott heads can't get their usual seat at the bar in the late morning/early afternoon because some riff raff is already occupying their seat at the bar.

 

I have done overnight land trips to KW in the past, and I have seen firsthand the issues I am referencing.  I will continue to maintain the KW ban is specifically designed to keep people like the OP of this thread out.  It's a good discussion, but the "Fat Lady" in Tallahassee has sung.

[Guest ldtr]

2 hours ago, Daniel A said:

 

 

I do appreciate your views on the attempted Key West cruise ship ban.  I take note that your arguments in favor of the ban make no mention of the 'environmental' reasons which the lobbyists in KW threw against the wall to make a ban stick through a referendum.  There was no mention of crowds on Duvall Street or cheap tourists displacing wealthier tourists, but I suspect you have articulated the real reasons behind the attempted ban.

 

I note that you state that cruise tourists only contribute 10% of the tourism dollars in one sentence yet you decry the large infusion of "multiples of the cruise ship focused businesses."  I doubt that corporations would invest in marketing to cruise ship passengers if they don't spend very much money.  Do you see the contradiction in your excuses justifying KW banning cruise ships except for the cruise lines that are the higher end ones that only the wealthy can afford?  I will continue to believe that the main reason behind the whole ban issue is that the Parrott heads can't get their usual seat at the bar in the late morning/early afternoon because some riff raff is already occupying their seat at the bar.

 

I have done overnight land trips to KW in the past, and I have seen firsthand the issues I am referencing.  I will continue to maintain the KW ban is specifically designed to keep people like the OP of this thread out.  It's a good discussion, but the "Fat Lady" in Tallahassee has sung.

I did say that some voted against cruise ships for environmental reasons. Can give you the contact ts of the environmental group that was one of the primary leaders of the initial r

vote. As well as links to several research papers discussing the impact on water quality due to the increasing numbers of large cruise ships pre covid and the improvements in water quality during Covid. 

 

Keep drinking the cruise line kool-aid as the experience in many cruise ports continues to drop due to crowds and local attractiveness of the ports get replaced by the same cruise line following businesses. Far more reasons to keep numbers of cruise ship passengers down than to keep the riffraff down as you put it.  Environmental, quality of life, keeping local unique culture and features, etc. There are ways for everyone to experience it, and much better that with 3000 to 6000 of their closest friends at the same time mostly crowded into  a small few block area.

 

After all there are plenty of ways to visit Key West for as much time as a cruise ship visit for even less money compared to cruise costs including shuttles, both bus and sea, driving down, etc.  Want longer than there are pretty low cost places to stay on neighboring keys within a reasonable driving distance of Key West itself.

 

As far as the state government, even with that law, made after a substantial contribution, by the owners of dock b, the local government still reduced the number of ships from 3 to 1 per day. So did cut down the crowds from 9 to 12000 to 3 to 4000.

 

The reason why cruise line business take over is because very large numbers even spending very little each can provide sufficient income for cruise line focused jewelry stores, t shirt shops, etc (many of which are owned by the same people that own similar stores in Alaska and the Caribbean islands) to crowd out more diverse businesses.

 

Edited November 11, 2022 by ldtr