Passenger Vessel Services Act - Los Angeles to Hawaiian Islands Return

[Starboard Forty]

If a passenger misses the departure in LA and Princess EZ Air arranges flights to meet the ship in the next port does the passenger need to be concerned about a violation of the PVSA when returning to LA?  

 

I assume that as Princess is making all the arrangements and informing the ship of the late arrival that Princess/or the ship would be asking for a waiver and as such the passenger would not have any liability for the fine.

 

Has anyone had this experience (specific to the particular itinerary would be most beneficial).

 

Thanks.

[Rick&Jeannie]

I suspect that the ship does a quickie stop in Ensenada to satisfy that issue.  It would have to either coming or going...I think it's usually on return. (I could be wrong!0

[Rick&Jeannie]

You didn't say which sailing date...but here's the itinerary:

[cherylandtk]

Unfortunately, missing the ship in LA won’t result in a flight to the next port in Hawaii.  The cruise line is not allowed to intentionally violate the PVSA, and thus the first legal port they could fly you to is Ensenada.  
 

One option could be to fly to Hawaii yourself and disembark in Mexico, but it would be up to you to arrange that itinerary deviation with Princess.  They are under no obligation to do so.

 

This is one of those itineraries where missing the initial departure pretty much results in no cruise.  One way Alaska trips are another.

[Starboard Forty]

The ship does stop at Ensenada on the return but the issue is within the wording of the PVSA.  I have been assured by Princess that the ship knows I am coming and one of the agents specifically mentioned about a waiver or exemption but I am uncertain whether the agent made the comment in relation to the PVSA.  I have a colleague who was a ship's captain with Holland America Line years ago who said there should not be any problem.  However, in trying to find answers to my question I have found instances where my embarkation in Hawaii and being transported to LA, even with the stop in Ensenada is a violation because the authorization for the route is "return LA".  

 

It seems a lost cause trying to address this with Princess as the agents I have dealt with have not appeared to be very well informed about things.  Princess also would not send me an email with some sort of confirmation that I am embarking in the Hawaiian port.  The reply is trust us, "I have confirmed with the agent that set up the tickets an email has been sent to the ship and the ship has acknowledged that email".  My confidence and trust are so low that I am now recording all the phone calls.

 

[Starboard Forty]

9 minutes ago, cherylandtk said:

Unfortunately, missing the ship in LA won’t result in a flight to the next port in Hawaii.  The cruise line is not allowed to intentionally violate the PVSA, and thus the first legal port they could fly you to is Ensenada.  
 

One option could be to fly to Hawaii yourself and disembark in Mexico, but it would be up to you to arrange that itinerary deviation with Princess.  They are under no obligation to do so.

 

This is one of those itineraries where missing the initial departure pretty much results in no cruise.  One way Alaska trips are another.

I have tickets to fly to that Hawaiian port.  Your comment is truly increasing my level of worry.

 

[cherylandtk]

 

If Princess is routing you this way they are already dealing with the violation or exception under some sort of waiver. As to whether there will be a fine, or who pays it….this is not a routine situation so there is probably not a standard answer.

[sunviking90]

I have read on this forum previously that in a case such as yours Princess will take care of the fine on your behalf since you booked with EZair. I’m assuming you were delayed by our recent YVR mess?

[Guest ldtr]

2 hours ago, Rick&Jeannie said:

I suspect that the ship does a quickie stop in Ensenada to satisfy that issue.  It would have to either coming or going...I think it's usually on return. (I could be wrong!0

Actually that does not satisfy PVSA since Ensenada is not a far distant port.  Ensenada does satisfy the foreign stop for a closed loop cruise requirement.

[Guest ldtr]

2 hours ago, Starboard Forty said:

If a passenger misses the departure in LA and Princess EZ Air arranges flights to meet the ship in the next port does the passenger need to be concerned about a violation of the PVSA when returning to LA?  

 

I assume that as Princess is making all the arrangements and informing the ship of the late arrival that Princess/or the ship would be asking for a waiver and as such the passenger would not have any liability for the fine.

 

Has anyone had this experience (specific to the particular itinerary would be most beneficial).

 

Thanks.

I have been on cruises, including one to Hawaii last year, where passengers were allowed to board in Hawaii after missing the departure due to flight issues.  Did not hear how the fine was handled, only that Princess did approve them to board, even though it did result in a PVSA violation.  If you booked using EZair, I expect that Princess would have covered the fine.  Not sure about anyone with flight problems that did not book under EZair, but atleast in 1 case was allowed to board.

 

I believe that since it is due to something beyond the control of the cruise line and the passenger, that the fine to the cruise line will still occur, but that the cruise line will not face any additional punishment, which they might if they sold bookings that violated PVSA.

Edited December 23, 2022 by ldtr

[Starboard Forty]

5 hours ago, sunviking90 said:

I have read on this forum previously that in a case such as yours Princess will take care of the fine on your behalf since you booked with EZair. I’m assuming you were delayed by our recent YVR mess?

Well, from YYJ through YVR.  In this case booking on the 20th, two days ahead did not work. Another couple from Vic booked on the 21st had the YYJ/YVR cancelled of which they were notified on the 20th giving them plenty of time to get to YVR for the 8pm flight the next day.  Lucky folk are on the cruise.

 

[Starboard Forty]

4 hours ago, ldtr said:

I have been on cruises, including one to Hawaii last year, where passengers were allowed to board in Hawaii after missing the departure due to flight issues.  Did not hear how the fine was handled, only that Princess did approve them to board, even though it did result in a PVSA violation.  If you booked using EZair, I expect that Princess would have covered the fine.  Not sure about anyone with flight problems that did not book under EZair, but atleast in 1 case was allowed to board.

 

I believe that since it is due to something beyond the control of the cruise line and the passenger, that the fine to the cruise line will still occur, but that the cruise line will not face any additional punishment, which they might if they sold bookings that violated PVSA.

Thanks very much for the personal anecdote, it helps lift a bit of the stress this whole situation is creating.  

[caribill]

Several years ago there was a post by a frequent Princess cruiser that due to flight problems shoe could not make the ship in Los Angeles.

 

Princess did fly her to Hawaii.

 

But, on the return she had to disembark in Ensenada to avoid the PVSA violation.

[chengkp75]

First off, note that any fine for violating the PVSA is levied against the cruise line, not the passenger.  It is only the ticket contract that allows Princess to pass the fine on to you.  I am not aware of what the problem is at Vancouver, but assume it is weather related?  If so, the cruise line will apply for a waiver of the fine, as the delay is out of their control, and out of the control of the passenger.  While the guarantees given by typical phone center agents have no clue about the PVSA, should this happen again, you want to request to speak to the compliance department, as they are the ones who handle all of this.  As long as Princess has arranged flights, etc, you are good to go, and even if in the unlikely event that you get fined, you can appeal the fine to CBP, and typically get it refunded.  I have been on ships where the passenger died, and he and his wife were disembarked in violation of the PVSA, and the cruise line gave them the paperwork needed to appeal the fine.  I don't believe it will come to that, the line will take care of it.

[mtnesterz]

12 hours ago, Starboard Forty said:

Has anyone had this experience (specific to the particular itinerary would be most beneficial)

Not knowing the reason for your question, if you have a pressing commitment and can't make the sail date, the next sailing for this itinerary is not until March '23. You likely have not made final payment. Why not just change to a different sailing date and enjoy the whole cruise?

OTOH, if you are fretting about your flight arriving late and missing the ship, then have you considered taking the same Hawaii destination out of Vancouver and avoid flying altogether. Or, if it must be L.A. just book through EZ Air and the ship will wait for you if the plane/bus is delayed.

[mtnesterz]

Follow up to my previous post. I have had time to read your other posts and see you have already booked a flight to Hawaii. Whatever your reasons, good luck in your travels!

[Wishing on a star]

Here is my guess.

 

There would be no problem with the international port requirement, as that would be covered by the stop at Ensenada,  on the return. 

In which case, you would not need to worry about any violation fee.

And, you ARE returning to LA.  You begin your cruise at a U.S. port, and end the cruise at a U.S. port.  and the international requirement is being met.

 

I hope that you have fully documented permission and arrangements to board a cruise after embarkation.  That might be a whole different thing.

Good luck with Princess on that.

I would be looking for contacts at the highest levels on this one.

Some generic rep or Princess Planner clearly isn't enough.

I would want absolute, in writing, authorazation for boarding in Hawaii.

 

(We once considered ending a Hawaiian cruise early, to skip the sea days home,  stay in Hawaii and fly home on our own.   That, of course, would require pre-authorization and paying that fee.)

 

Otherwise in general.  I would think that, If 'passenger' misses flight,  or if  'passenger'  chooses to take their own flight. then 'passenger' is the one responsible.

 

Now, if an EZ air flight, booked thru Princess, does not make it to LA,  then that would become a Princess issue.   If transfers booked thru Princess cause a problem,  then again.  this would be Princess' responsibility.

 

In short, general advice to anyone for any cruise like this.

Do not cut any flight times too close.

Do not miss any flights.

Have good insurance.

I believe the Princess insurance will have coverage for this kind of 'meet the ship' scenario.

Nationwide, I believe has specific Cruise Insurance that has coverage for these kinds of things.

 

 

Edited December 23, 2022 by Wishing on a star

[chengkp75]

11 minutes ago, Wishing on a star said:

There would be no problem with the international port requirement, as that would be covered by the stop at Ensenada,  on the return.

This is incorrect.  While Ensenada meets the foreign port requirement for a closed loop (LA to LA), it does not meet the "distant" foreign port requirement for a one way ("open jaw") cruise from Hawaii to LA.  CBP does not care that you purchased an LA to LA cruise, just that you got on in Hawaii and got off in LA, making it a one way trip between US ports.

 

14 minutes ago, Wishing on a star said:

I would think that, If 'passenger' misses flight,  then 'passenger' is the one responsible.

This is correct, but the OP did not "miss" the flight, the flight was cancelled/delayed due to weather in Vancouver (I believe), so that is out of their control (act of God), and therefore not responsible.

[Wishing on a star]

Thanks!  I was seeing 'If passenger misses the departure'.   Which does sound different than "If flight, booked thru Princess, is delayed."

 

And, I might be wrong, as I guess I am not familiar with the loop - vs - one way.   And of course Hawaii back to LA is a one way,  IF the flight to Hawaii is not able to be counted as part of the trip/passage.  Are all the Canadian Northeast cruises round trip?

 

In any case, this seems to be a complex situation, and I would be elevating this to higher levels to get some good answers, and document everything!

[chengkp75]

21 minutes ago, Wishing on a star said:

Are all the Canadian Northeast cruises round trip?

Do you mean Canadian Northwest?  Some are round trip from Seattle, some are one way from Vancouver to Alaska, or from Alaska to Vancouver.  If a one way trip either starts or ends in a foreign port, then the PVSA does not apply.

 

22 minutes ago, Wishing on a star said:

In any case, this seems to be a complex situation, and I would be elevating this to higher levels to get some good answers, and document everything!

This is very true, which is why I recommended kicking this up to the "compliance" office.  Many folks will book two or three cruises back to back, and the call center agents allow it, and then months later the customer gets a call from the compliance department saying that whatever combination of cruises was booked is not allowed under PVSA.  The most often that the PVSA comes up is in connection with Canada/Alaska cruises and back to backs.

 

25 minutes ago, Wishing on a star said:

Which does sound different than "If flight, booked thru Princess, is delayed."

Even if the flight is booked by the individual, if it is canceled by the airline, that is a third party problem, out of the control of either the passenger or the cruise line, and CBP typically waives the fine in these cases.

[skynight]

4 hours ago, Wishing on a star said:

Here is my guess.

 

There would be no problem with the international port requirement, as that would be covered by the stop at Ensenada,  on the return. 

In which case, you would not need to worry about any violation fee.

And, you ARE returning to LA.  You begin your cruise at a U.S. port, and end the cruise at a U.S. port.  and the international requirement is being met.

Your interpretation of the PSVA is not accurate. The act requires that non US flag vessels may not carry passengers between two different US ports unless the vessel stops at a distant foreign port. Ensenada is a near foreign port. Boarding in Hawaii and disembarking in L.A. is a violation of the act. Thus the OP requires a waiver.

The act also states that a non US flag vessel may carry passengers on RT voyages embarking and disembarking at the same US port as long as they stop at a near foreign port. 

Edited December 23, 2022 by skynight

[Arizona Wildcat]

17 hours ago, sunviking90 said:

I have read on this forum previously that in a case such as yours Princess will take care of the fine on your behalf since you booked with EZair. I’m assuming you were delayed by our recent YVR mess?

The passenger does not get the fine - if any - the cruise line handles it.  Princess can also get a waiver.

Not complicated.  Just follow what Princess wants and it is THEIR responsibility. 

[Arizona Wildcat]

1 hour ago, Wishing on a star said:

Thanks!  I was seeing 'If passenger misses the departure'.   Which does sound different than "If flight, booked thru Princess, is delayed."

 

And, I might be wrong, as I guess I am not familiar with the loop - vs - one way.   And of course Hawaii back to LA is a one way,  IF the flight to Hawaii is not able to be counted as part of the trip/passage.  Are all the Canadian Northeast cruises round trip?

 

In any case, this seems to be a complex situation, and I would be elevating this to higher levels to get some good answers, and document everything!

Cruises to Quebec City etc are all round trip starting and ending in the US.  No PVSA issues.

No need to elevate.  The airline flight issue qualifies for a waiver.  

[cr8tiv1]

There are two poster, that I know of, that have “violated” the PVSA.  Wish they would chime in with real world experience.

 

Passenger #1 chose to leave a Hawaii cruise mid-voyage, was fined, and paid fine.

 

Passenger #2 missed embarkation in San Pedro, was flown to Hawaii, and did not personally pay fine.  

[Starboard Forty]

3 hours ago, cr8tiv1 said:

There are two poster, that I know of, that have “violated” the PVSA.  Wish they would chime in with real world experience.

 

Passenger #1 chose to leave a Hawaii cruise mid-voyage, was fined, and paid fine.

 

Passenger #2 missed embarkation in San Pedro, was flown to Hawaii, and did not personally pay fine.  

Thank you for those examples. I have had a travel agent contact a Princess rep high up in the organization who reviewed our case and I have been assured that I will be able to board and that all is in hand.