NCL Returns to Tradition Muster Drill, Will Royal Follow?

[bonsai3s]

58 minutes ago, vision14k said:

As someone else said, if sh** was hitting the fan, nobody would be standing in perfect lines waiting to board a life boat.  They can’t even get everyone to show up for the drills, so what makes you think that it would be some organized process if something real were happening. Face it, if there is a serious emergency requiring a full ship evacuation, you better hope you have some ninja fighting skills and can take out some other passengers! 🙂

Yes! This was what a crew member told us...

 

"Sir, I was on the Costa Concordia...passengers were running everywhere...no one paid attention to the announcements...people crying...total chaos. The crew saved a lot of people...some decided to jump off the ship and swim...we were close to land."

 

* And yes, we all know what the Captain did.

[OSUZorba]

On 1/23/2023 at 1:07 PM, chengkp75 said:

The IMO moves very slowly, and needs to have quite a lot of data to make a decision.  Two years of e-muster evaluations, even on all cruise ships, is not that large a data pool, compared to the decades of data from the old style drill.  Frankly, I don't believe that the IMO will approve the e-muster, as it does not provide adequate, realistic training for passengers or crew.  I dread having a disaster on a ship where the e-muster has been in use.

 

Since the crew still needs to perform a passenger muster drill weekly, adding this to the normal crew fire and boat drill is adding more time away from normal duties for more crew than under the old drill, and also, crew are wasted waiting at the muster station for hours waiting for passengers to check in, taking them from their normal duties, so this is also a cost savings for the cruise line.

 

I know I'm in the unpopular minority, but I see this as a win for passenger safety.

You convinced me in the DCL thread. A few weeks later I was on Allure and thought "Man chengkp was completely right, emuster really does not provide adequate training for anyone."

 

We were "mustered" by my wife turning on the video, phone on silent, face down in the Windjammer and then when we went to our station they were just standing out in the hallway scanning badges for every station in the theater, so people didn't even have to walk all the way to their actual stations. Doesn't seem like a big deal until you have 600 people entering the theater and have no idea where to go in a panic.

[OSUZorba]

2 hours ago, vision14k said:

As someone else said, if sh** was hitting the fan, nobody would be standing in perfect lines waiting to board a life boat.  They can’t even get everyone to show up for the drills, so what makes you think that it would be some organized process if something real were happening. Face it, if there is a serious emergency requiring a full ship evacuation, you better hope you have some ninja fighting skills and can take out some other passengers! 🙂

The fact that it has happened well many times in actual emergencies.

 

Just like the FA saying no one pays attention to safety briefings on planes, yet planes are evaced safely all the time and the only time I've ever heard of a pax not donning an O2 mask was after the FAA made the airlines pull the O2 generators out of the lavs. Obviously a lot of that is because the FAs are very well trained and they respond with muscle memory, the other part is people do pay more attention than it seems. Some pax on a ship will panic, some will not listen, etc, that is why it is important to actually train the crew in dealing with them.

[OSUZorba]

1 hour ago, bonsai3s said:

Yes! This was what a crew member told us...

 

"Sir, I was on the Costa Concordia...passengers were running everywhere...no one paid attention to the announcements...people crying...total chaos. The crew saved a lot of people...some decided to jump off the ship and swim...we were close to land."

 

* And yes, we all know what the Captain did.

The ship hit the rocks at 9:45, began noticeably listing by 10:00 and changed listing sides soon there after, by 10:12 the coastguard called the ship to report that passengers had been calling local authorities to report an emergency on the ship. The captain finally ordered a general emergency at 10:33. The ship was listed at 30 degrees before the order to abandon ship came out at 10:54, effectively eliminating half the life boats. Then to top it all off, a large percentage of the passengers had not yet done a muster drill (new passengers picked up that afternoon and the next muster was scheduled for the next day).

 

The passengers and crew were allowed to enter full panic mode due to a complete criminal lack of leadership onboard. Not just a lack of leadership, but leadership that was blatantly lying in an obvious way about how bad the situation was. Compare that to say the grounding of the Monarch or the fire on Freedom. IIRC, on Freedom the general emergency was sounded within a minute of the Bravo call, and all reports here was that it was completely orderly and no one panicked. The difference in real leadership, and criminally negligent leadership.

[Mick B]

Hi,

What we all have to remember here is that the original muster drill came into force for all ships not long after the Titanic incident of 1912. It has been used (or should have been used) at the start of every cruise before leaving port and is there for the safety of ALL on board (passengers and crew etc).

 

If we have to go back to this way (which had been in place for approx 100 years before covid changed things) then so be it, but it really would be nice if after the restart of 2021, we could improve on the e-muster instead.

 

What about having to either watch a video on your phone/device shortly after boarding or on your stateroom TV if you don't have a device, and then follow the instructions to go to your muster station. Maybe the video could end with a code you have to give to staff upon arrival at your muster station to so they know you have watched the video beforehand.

Since you have now found the muster station, you have done the most important thing - found where your lifeboat will be launched from in a real emergency. A staff member could then make sure you know how to put on a life jacket correctly and then sign you off. 

 

Surely being at the life boat station asap and then putting on a life jacket properly and then awaiting further instructions from the crew is all you need to do in an emergency. 

 

The route to your assembly point is clearly printed on the inside of your stateroom door (any anyone who isn't familiar with the ship should make sure they read this asap to be aware anyway) plus crew are normally at all/most stairways to answer any questions you need about getting to your muster station which is printed on your sea pass card, so again what more is there to do?

 

The muster drill is the law for us all on board, and should be done correctly for everyone's safety, but if it can be done in such a way that the impact on your holiday time is minimal, then surely that would be best for everyone - as long as everyone on board as a chance of knowing what they should be doing in an emergency. 

 

Mick.

 

[Engineroom Snipe]

7 hours ago, neverbeenhere said:

Bring it back, I want to see who is on the cruise with us. Also who I need to outrun when the bear is chasing us. 

 

Speaking of outrunning bears onboard (I know the intent), I am more concerned about getting loaded into a lifeboat that meets the United States Coast Guard (USCG) weight limits for capacity without sinking.

 

The USCG up until 2011, used 150 lbs as the average weight of a vessel passenger for flotation capacity design requirements.

 

They raised the weight limit that year to 185 lbs quoting health studies stating that was the statistical number as people have been much heavier than the past. It has not been updated since and passengers are only getting heavier according to recent obesity studies.

 

I wonder what the average weight of an RCI passenger is?

 

Total weight of all passengers divided by amount of passengers is that number.

 

I think it would be a significant amount above 185 lbs.

 

The following 370 person lifeboats are used on the Oasis. It bases a passenger average weight to be 185 lbs for passenger loading.

 

I want everyone to be weighed and the average better be equal to or less than 185 lbs per person so my lifeboat does not exceed weight capacity. 🤣🤣🤣

 

https://www.rina.org.uk/mega-lifeboat.html

 

 

[time4u2go]

1 hour ago, Mick B said:

Hi,

What we all have to remember here is that the original muster drill came into force for all ships not long after the Titanic incident of 1912. It has been used (or should have been used) at the start of every cruise before leaving port and is there for the safety of ALL on board (passengers and crew etc).

 

If we have to go back to this way (which had been in place for approx 100 years before covid changed things) then so be it, but it really would be nice if after the restart of 2021, we could improve on the e-muster instead.

 

What about having to either watch a video on your phone/device shortly after boarding or on your stateroom TV if you don't have a device, and then follow the instructions to go to your muster station. Maybe the video could end with a code you have to give to staff upon arrival at your muster station to so they know you have watched the video beforehand.

Since you have now found the muster station, you have done the most important thing - found where your lifeboat will be launched from in a real emergency. A staff member could then make sure you know how to put on a life jacket correctly and then sign you off. 

 

Surely being at the life boat station asap and then putting on a life jacket properly and then awaiting further instructions from the crew is all you need to do in an emergency. 

 

The route to your assembly point is clearly printed on the inside of your stateroom door (any anyone who isn't familiar with the ship should make sure they read this asap to be aware anyway) plus crew are normally at all/most stairways to answer any questions you need about getting to your muster station which is printed on your sea pass card, so again what more is there to do?

 

The muster drill is the law for us all on board, and should be done correctly for everyone's safety, but if it can be done in such a way that the impact on your holiday time is minimal, then surely that would be best for everyone - as long as everyone on board as a chance of knowing what they should be doing in an emergency. 

 

Mick.

 

As has been pointed out numerous times (including in response to your similar previous post), the muster drill isn't just for the benefit of the passengers.  It is also for the benefit of the crew.

[chengkp75]

3 hours ago, Engineroom Snipe said:

Speaking of outrunning bears onboard (I know the intent), I am more concerned about getting loaded into a lifeboat that meets the United States Coast Guard (USCG) weight limits for capacity without sinking.

The lifeboats are not rated on weight limits for sinking.  The number of people allowed in a boat is determined by volume, not weight.  Even if every person in the boat was 50 lbs over the "standard weight", and the boat filled completely with water, it would not sink.

 

The weight limits are for the lowering davits and wires, and are tested to 110% of the rated capacity, every 5 years.

 

Also, the USCG does not set the limits for lifeboats, either volume or weight, that is set by SOLAS.  When the US became signatory to SOLAS, Congress had to pass laws that took the SOLAS requirements into law.

[FOXTROT]

The virtual muster drill is just fine. In an emergency, even the old muster drill would not help the situation. IMHO

  

[Engineroom Snipe]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

The lifeboats are not rated on weight limits for sinking.  The number of people allowed in a boat is determined by volume, not weight.  Even if every person in the boat was 50 lbs over the "standard weight", and the boat filled completely with water, it would not sink.

 

The weight limits are for the lowering davits and wires, and are tested to 110% of the rated capacity, every 5 years.

 

Also, the USCG does not set the limits for lifeboats, either volume or weight, that is set by SOLAS.  When the US became signatory to SOLAS, Congress had to pass laws that took the SOLAS requirements into law.

 

I am just wondering about it using the numbers provided by the manufacturer on its webpage..

 

17 Tonnes Empty in stowed position.

 

45 Tonnes Fully loaded with 370 passengers and crew.

 

45 Tonnes fully loaded minus 17 Tonnes empty equals 28 Tonnes.

 

1 Tonne is equal to 2,204 lbs.

 

Designed capacity is 28 Tonnes times 2,204 lbs which is 61,712 lbs.

 

61,721 lbs divided by 370 passengers (not including crew) is 167 lbs per person.

 

So, the lifeboat is designed to hold 370 passengers whose average weight is 217 lbs, placing a 53 Tonne Load on the Davits that are tested at 55 Tonnes which is 110% of the 50 Tonne rating?

 

 

[chengkp75]

14 minutes ago, Engineroom Snipe said:

So, the lifeboat is designed to hold 370 passengers whose average weight is 217 lbs, placing a 53 Tonne Load on the Davits that are tested at 55 Tonnes which is 110% of the 50 Tonne rating?

Not sure what the question is here, but, yes the davit is tested to 55 mt, if the rating is 50 mt.  And, because you are theoretically exceeding the rating, you only do this once (when it really matters).  Another factor is if the people weigh much more than the "standard", then you physically can't fit the whole capacity into the boat.

 

I know that many years ago, when working on an offshore drilling platform, we decided to see if we could get the rated capacity of an enclosed boat, using "typical" oil field workers, wearing immersion suits.  Replicating a "clown car" in stuffing guys into the boat, we managed to get 56 in a 65 man boat.  However, the rig was required to have 200% capacity in boats.

[Starry Eyes]

11 hours ago, OSUZorba said:

You convinced me in the DCL thread. A few weeks later I was on Allure and thought "Man chengkp was completely right, emuster really does not provide adequate training for anyone."

 

We were "mustered" by my wife turning on the video, phone on silent, face down in the Windjammer and then when we went to our station they were just standing out in the hallway scanning badges for every station in the theater, so people didn't even have to walk all the way to their actual stations. Doesn't seem like a big deal until you have 600 people entering the theater and have no idea where to go in a panic.

Wait…you and your wife deliberately chose not to view or listen to the video (perhaps you had your reasons, but still your choice).  People with that same I’m-not-watching-or-listening attitude toward the muster can also ignore the educational info at a live muster….except at a live muster they are often talking and distracting others, so people around them do not benefit from the presentation either.  Not saying you’d do it, but we have seen lots of those people 

 

You made it to the theater entrance.  What happens from there would depot the actual emergency.  If at that point, the captain just wanted passengers gathered you would have been directed the the proper location in the theater (not difficult).  If there were an abandon ship situation, they may direct you into a differently at the theater entrance.

[OSUZorba]

8 hours ago, Engineroom Snipe said:

 

I am just wondering about it using the numbers provided by the manufacturer on its webpage..

 

17 Tonnes Empty in stowed position.

 

45 Tonnes Fully loaded with 370 passengers and crew.

 

45 Tonnes fully loaded minus 17 Tonnes empty equals 28 Tonnes.

 

1 Tonne is equal to 2,204 lbs.

 

Designed capacity is 28 Tonnes times 2,204 lbs which is 61,712 lbs.

 

61,721 lbs divided by 370 passengers (not including crew) is 167 lbs per person.

 

So, the lifeboat is designed to hold 370 passengers whose average weight is 217 lbs, placing a 53 Tonne Load on the Davits that are tested at 55 Tonnes which is 110% of the 50 Tonne rating?

 

 

No way the average pax is 217# on a completely full ship.

 

The 110% is also a proof test, not an ultimate load rating.

[OSUZorba]

8 hours ago, Starry Eyes said:

Wait…you and your wife deliberately chose not to view or listen to the video (perhaps you had your reasons, but still your choice).  People with that same I’m-not-watching-or-listening attitude toward the muster can also ignore the educational info at a live muster….except at a live muster they are often talking and distracting others, so people around them do not benefit from the presentation either.  Not saying you’d do it, but we have seen lots of those people 

 

You made it to the theater entrance.  What happens from there would depot the actual emergency.  If at that point, the captain just wanted passengers gathered you would have been directed the the proper location in the theater (not difficult).  If there were an abandon ship situation, they may direct you into a differently at the theater entrance.

Actually royals stupid app automatically assumed everyone in our cabin watched the video. But yeah, this is what happens with the emuster, royal knows and doesn't care to change it.

 

Basically the entire argument for emuster is "I don't like traditional muster and will ignore all days that says it's better"

Edited January 26, 2023 by OSUZorba

[Starry Eyes]

48 minutes ago, OSUZorba said:

Actually royals stupid app automatically assumed everyone in our cabin watched the video. But yeah, this is what happens with the emuster, royal knows and doesn't care to change it.

 

Basically the entire argument for emuster is "I don't like traditional muster and will ignore all days that says it's better"

Oh, you think the Royal app did it automatically? Isn’t it more likely your wife checked all your names?  Your wife who you said turned off the volume and turning the phone upside down would, after all, be apt to also just check off all your names.  And you knew you were supposed to watch it, so it is still your responsibility.

 

I’m willing to do whichever muster drill, but none is apt to be effective when passengers don’t take it seriously and/or are disruptive. 

[Pellaz]

On 1/24/2023 at 8:16 AM, time4u2go said:

Simple solution...don't allow people to purchase anything or use drink vouchers until they've done e-muster.  

 

As someone mentioned earlier -- and as I hazily remembered -- Carnival DOES impose a two-drink "pause" after boarding to complete e-muster; then you can resume guzzling your adult beverages.   

Seems to be a workable compromise; by the time the earliest arrivals onboard are two drinks "in," the muster stations should be up and running and after e-muster, you're FREEEEE.....   

 

This has been a great, informative discussion.  The drill is as much for the crew as it is for guests.  Really, even more so for the crew. 

Checking and inspecting disaster equipment is important, too.  Remember when the Majesty was inspected by the USCG and had to delay a sailing because too many of the lifejackets had rotted or decayed?  😮  

Edited January 27, 2023 by Pellaz

[Ocean Boy]

On 1/24/2023 at 8:56 AM, chengkp75 said:

 

What if those crew stairs were unusable?  What if the theater was involved in the emergency?  What if the muster station is unusable?  Have you ever asked yourself, how would I get from any one spot on the ship to my muster station, if there is a fire at a location in between?  If you haven't put that much thought into evacuation, then a minor re-routing to passenger stairwells should not affect your performance in an emergency.

Muster drill does not prepare you for any of those scenarios. 

[CruisingWalter]

On 1/23/2023 at 11:18 AM, vision14k said:

Norwegian Cruise Line has announced the end of the virtual or e-muster drill and will immediately return to the traditional safety briefing, will Royal Caribbean follow??  I sure hope not!  Fresh off Freedom and the e-muster was great!

 

This is why we can't have nice things. People who cannot be bothered to complete the e-muster drill have been holding up cruise departures, in a few cases up to 2 hours, due to the crew having to chase people down. The cruise cannot start until everyone has completed the drill. 

 

On every cruise we have taken since the restart the ships have been at least one hour late sailing away with the continual "Would these people please report to guest services immediately" announcements about every 10 minutes. 

 

Disney, NCL, Regent and Oceania all say this is 'due to the safety of the passengers' but in reality it's due to 5% or less of passengers who can't be bothered. I don't think it'll be long until RCCL and Carnival  are back to the 'old way of doing things.' Especially given the massive size and capacity of their ships. Chasing passengers down can be a daunting task. 

[not-enough-cruising]

1 hour ago, WheresWalter said:

 

This is why we can't have nice things. People who cannot be bothered to complete the e-muster drill have been holding up cruise departures, in a few cases up to 2 hours, due to the crew having to chase people down. The cruise cannot start until everyone has completed the drill. 

 

On every cruise we have taken since the restart the ships have been at least one hour late sailing away with the continual "Would these people please report to guest services immediately" announcements about every 10 minutes. 

 

Disney, NCL, Regent and Oceania all say this is 'due to the safety of the passengers' but in reality it's due to 5% or less of passengers who can't be bothered. I don't think it'll be long until RCCL and Carnival  are back to the 'old way of doing things.' Especially given the massive size and capacity of their ships. Chasing passengers down can be a daunting task. 

Take a look at Royals press release on the subject.

They are not going back to traditional muster.

[Ocean Boy]

16 minutes ago, not-enough-cruising said:

Take a look at Royals press release on the subject.

They are not going back to traditional muster.

This is Cruise Critic. A statement from RCI means nothing. 

[not-enough-cruising]

8 minutes ago, Ocean Boy said:

This is Cruise Critic. A statement from RCI means nothing. 

How foolish of me 😂

[RobInMN]

26 minutes ago, not-enough-cruising said:

Take a look at Royals press release on the subject.

They are not going back to traditional muster.

@QuickGold posted this link in the other thread on this:

Royal says they aren't going back

https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2023/01/26/royal-caribbean-we-have-no-intention-of-moving-back-old-muster-drill

 

[chengkp75]

3 hours ago, Ocean Boy said:

Muster drill does not prepare you for any of those scenarios. 

It prepares you to follow the orders of the crew who are there to guide you, and who know where the unusable exit routes are.

[map92]

A post was made showing a response RCI saying they were staying with the E-Muster.

[gumshoe958]

6 hours ago, map92 said:

A post was made showing a response RCI saying they were staying with the E-Muster.

Ultimately, it’s not Royal’s decision to make.