Suspicious Death on Carnival Sunshine

[ontheweb]

4 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

For the FBI to search would require a warrant and reasonable cause, but for the ship's security to search for evidence, and then for that evidence to be admissible in a US court case, is a different matter.  Provided that the search, on foreign property (the ship), by foreign law enforcement (the Captain is the legal representative of the flag state, and can delegate responsibilities to subordinates), can be admissible in US courts, if the search met the requirements of the flag state.

 

You will see in several cruise lines' ticket contracts, that the passenger's cabin and belongings can be searched without the passenger's knowledge or consent.

Thank you for chiming in. Somehow many believe that their US Constitutional rights follow them wherever they go.

 

As you pointed out, it is a foreign flagged ship and the Captain is the one in charge.

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, ray98 said:

Well at least in the great state of GA for a consent search to be valid is must be voluntary, uncoerced and able to be revoked at any time.  A video chat checking those boxes is likely to be a point of contention in court down the road if that is the route it goes.  It would be much easier to just obtain the warrant.

I don't think Georgia law applies in the Bahamas.

[ray98]

19 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

I don't think Georgia law applies in the Bahamas.

 

It isn't Georgia law, it is the Constitution of the United States.  If the FBI is investigating and have obtained a search warrant then they have shown cause they have some sort of jurisdiction in the matter.  They have the same Constitutional restraints as any other law enforcement officer.

[ontheweb]

Just now, ray98 said:

 

It isn't Georgia law, it is the Constitution of the United States.  If the FBI is investigating and have obtained a search warrant then they have shown cause they have some sort of jurisdiction in the matter.  They have the same Constitutional restraints as any other law enforcement officer.

Your Constitutional rights do not travel with you to a foreign country.

 

If you do not believe me, ask Brittany Griner.

[ray98]

2 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

Your Constitutional rights do not travel with you to a foreign country.

 

If you do not believe me, ask Brittany Griner.

 

This has nothing to do with criminal acts in a foreign country, this is a death investigation of a US citizen that the FBI is exercising jurisdiction under Special Maritime and Territorial Jurisdiction codified in 18 U.S.C.  Bottom line is the FBI has already proven this to the courts because the first step in applying for a search warrant is showing the court they have jurisdiction over the specific place to be searched.  When that happens your Constitutional rights are as much of an issue as they are in the middle of Nebraska. 

[Hoosierpop]

This discussion about the FBI is great but I have important cruising questions. 
 

Are Cheers and FTTF worth it?

[BlerkOne]

3 hours ago, sanger727 said:

 

Why couldn't he give consent? There is such a thing as video chatting and electronic signatures. All I'm pointing out is the Carnival is the one calling this a natural death, and that does not jive with the FBI getting search warrants. 

Carnival original's position was that it was suspicious and that is enough evidence to obtain search warrants. The FBI is officially not saying anything, including the name of the deceased and the current location of the husband and corpse.

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, ray98 said:

 

This has nothing to do with criminal acts in a foreign country, this is a death investigation of a US citizen that the FBI is exercising jurisdiction under Special Maritime and Territorial Jurisdiction codified in 18 U.S.C.  Bottom line is the FBI has already proven this to the courts because the first step in applying for a search warrant is showing the court they have jurisdiction over the specific place to be searched.  When that happens your Constitutional rights are as much of an issue as they are in the middle of Nebraska. 

Did you read the post #82 by @chengkp75 who had a career as a chief engineer on cruise ships? The FBI to be involved must be INVITED.  The Captain is the one with the authority on a cruise ship and can have security inspect a cabin.

[BlerkOne]

1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

Did you read the post #82 by @chengkp75 who had a career as a chief engineer on cruise ships? The FBI to be involved must be INVITED.  The Captain is the one with the authority on a cruise ship and can have security inspect a cabin.

We don't know if a crime was committed, including when and where. Jurisdiction hasn't been established.

 

Security can search a cabin without a crime or permission for a variety of reasons.

[ontheweb]

9 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

We don't know if a crime was committed, including when and where. Jurisdiction hasn't been established.

 

Security can search a cabin without a crime or permission for a variety of reasons.

Jurisdiction if the ship was at sea would be with the flagged state, the Bahamas. If ithe ship was at port, it would also be with the country where it was docked.

[AFS1970]

One does not need probable cause to obtain a search warrant, as the search warrant may help obtain the probable cause for an arrest. One must swear in front of a judge that they reasonably believe that they will find evidence of a crime if a crime was committed. 

While ships security. crew can search the cabin, and they are generally not bound by probable cause requirements at all, the question is, do they know how to conduct a search without contaminating evidence? Searching for contraband in accordance with a cruise contract is a very different thing from searching a crime scene for evidence which may need to be presented in a court.

[sanger727]

1 hour ago, AFS1970 said:

One does not need probable cause to obtain a search warrant, as the search warrant may help obtain the probable cause for an arrest. One must swear in front of a judge that they reasonably believe that they will find evidence of a crime if a crime was committed. 

While ships security. crew can search the cabin, and they are generally not bound by probable cause requirements at all, the question is, do they know how to conduct a search without contaminating evidence? Searching for contraband in accordance with a cruise contract is a very different thing from searching a crime scene for evidence which may need to be presented in a court.

 

What? No. You absolutely need probably cause to obtain a search warrant. The search warrant may help you get probably cause to arrest someone. But you can't get one without probable cause that there is evidence of a crime in that place right now. And that's actually alot more involved than it sounds. You have to have PC that evidence of a crime exists, and that it is "here", and it is here right now. If you make a case for all 3 of those, no search warrant. They really are not as easy to get as people are making them out to be. 

Edited March 14, 2023 by sanger727

[EngIceDave]

A death of unknown origin is probable cause

[kdnurs]

On 3/8/2023 at 8:35 AM, wesorbeth said:

Possibly.

 

On 3/7/2023 at 3:27 PM, teknoge3k said:

 

That must be an Ohio thing. My mom died in her house, no police showed up. My wifes grandfather died in his house, no police showed up. My next door neighbor died in his house, no police showed up. This has happened in Virginia, North Carolina and South Carolina. 

My grandson died in his apartment in Virginia and Police did come. 

[darren42]

The principal law under which the U.S. exercises its Special Maritime and Territorial Jurisdiction is set forth in Section 7 of Title 18 of the U.S. Code. This statute provides, in relevant part, that the U.S. has jurisdiction over crimes committed on a ship if:

• The ship, regardless of flag, is a U.S.-owned vessel, either whole or in part, regardless of the nationality of the victim or the perpetrator, when such vessel is within the admiralty and maritime jurisdiction of the United States and out of the jurisdiction of any particular state;
• The offense by or against a U.S. national was committed outside the jurisdiction of any nation;
• The crime occurred in the U.S. territorial sea (within 12 miles of the coast), regardless of the nationality of the vessel, the victim or the perpetrator; or
• The victim or perpetrator is a U.S. national on any vessel during a voyage that departed from or will arrive in a U.S. port.

[john91498]

lol, so many armchair lawyers in this group...🤣

[ninjacat123]

On 3/14/2023 at 6:40 PM, kdnurs said:

 

My grandson died in his apartment in Virginia and Police did come. 

I'm so sorry.