Carnival’s Next Class of Ship

[tidecat]

18 minutes ago, Lee Cruiser said:

I've been hoping they would add a third ship to New Orleans doing Saturday-Saturday cruises.  The shorter itineraries there get old. I certainly believe that the N.O. market could support three ships.

A third ship would require a second berth if the first two are doing 7 day itineraries. There are no legal 3-day itineraries out of New Orleans, so a Monday/Friday schedule isn't possible like it would be in Long Beach, Port Canaveral, and Miami.

[jsglow]

26 minutes ago, Lee Cruiser said:

I've been hoping they would add a third ship to New Orleans doing Saturday-Saturday cruises.  The shorter itineraries there get old. I certainly believe that the N.O. market could support three ships.

They can't without another pier.  Any cruise line's weekender ship in New Orleans necessarily needs to be on a 5/5/4 schedule.  That brings her to the pier every other Saturday.  There is no reasonable alternative.

 

Edit: @tidecat beat me to it!

Edited April 5, 2023 by jsglow

[jsglow]

2 hours ago, mz-s said:

Carnival's best option is to stick with their home port strategy of putting ships where their competitors aren't. They should be giving every concession conceivable to Charleston to keep that port open if it is possible (and it probably isn't, I'm sure they've tried for 10 years to make that port work and the NIMBYs are bound and determined to block it). Expand operations in Mobile as much as feasible. Put a newer ship, maybe an additional ship in Norfolk. Could Savannah, GA support a cruise ship? How about Corpus Christi, TX? There is enough interest in cruising right now that they could probably fill a ship every 4-8 hour's drive down the coastline.

 

They cannot compete against their competitor's when both are at the same port, except on price. Look at what happened when RCL came back to Long Beach - those Radiance and Panorama cruises are consistently some of the cheapest in the fleet despite being their newest non-Excel concepts. And competing on price won't pay down debt.

While I agree with the home port strategy, I disagree that they need to avoid competing directly with RCCL.  The latter is not a 'superior' product.  It's a somewhat 'different' product.  You would NEVER catch me on one of their floating monstrosities. The issue in Long Beach is all about excess available berths and limited itineraries.  It'll never command premium pricing. 

[BlerkOne]

8 hours ago, mz-s said:

They cannot compete against their competitor's when both are at the same port, except on price. Look at what happened when RCL came back to Long Beach - those Radiance and Panorama cruises are consistently some of the cheapest in the fleet despite being their newest non-Excel concepts. And competing on price won't pay down debt.

RCL is the first to abandon ports. They try to compete in New Orleans periodically and are always the first to pull out.

 

On New Orleans, Carnival isn't the only game in town as NCL is there seasonally and Disney will put a ship there later this year so that will be four. Of course New Orleans can handle more ships.

[Squirreladd]

9 hours ago, mz-s said:

They cannot compete against their competitor's when both are at the same port, except on price. Look at what happened when RCL came back to Long Beach - those Radiance and Panorama cruises are consistently some of the cheapest in the fleet despite being their newest non-Excel concepts. And competing on price won't pay down debt.

The real issue with those two ships is not competition from a 22 year old royal Caribbean ship without any of the popular attractions of the oasis and quantum class. The issue is that there is hardly anywhere to go on the west coast. Both carnival and royal seem to fear adding new ports and it's the exact same ports from both lines. 

[Squirreladd]

9 hours ago, mz-s said:

They cannot compete against their competitor's when both are at the same port, except on price. Look at what happened when RCL came back to Long Beach - those Radiance and Panorama cruises are consistently some of the cheapest in the fleet despite being their newest non-Excel concepts. And competing on price won't pay down debt.

The real issue with those two ships is not competition from a 22 year old royal Caribbean ship without any of the popular attractions of the oasis and quantum class. The issue is that there is hardly anywhere to go on the west coast. Both carnival and royal seem to fear adding new ports and it's the exact same ports from both lines. 

[BlerkOne]

From the left coast, NCL and Princess (and more) also cruise. It isn't a match race.

[gkbiiii]

20 hours ago, mz-s said:

Carnival's best option is to stick with their home port strategy of putting ships where their competitors aren't. They should be giving every concession conceivable to Charleston to keep that port open if it is possible (and it probably isn't, I'm sure they've tried for 10 years to make that port work and the NIMBYs are bound and determined to block it). Expand operations in Mobile as much as feasible. Put a newer ship, maybe an additional ship in Norfolk. Could Savannah, GA support a cruise ship? How about Corpus Christi, TX? There is enough interest in cruising right now that they could probably fill a ship every 4-8 hour's drive down the coastline.

 

They cannot compete against their competitor's when both are at the same port, except on price. Look at what happened when RCL came back to Long Beach - those Radiance and Panorama cruises are consistently some of the cheapest in the fleet despite being their newest non-Excel concepts. And competing on price won't pay down debt.

I don't agree with your analysis; as I just booked the casino offer for December 2024 sailing on Firenze.  I live in Miami Beach; would be willing even to spend a premium and fly Transcon to join this amazing vessel in CA!

[gkbiiii]

1 minute ago, gkbiiii said:

I don't agree with your analysis; as I just booked the casino offer for December 2024 sailing on Firenze.  I live in Miami Beach; would be willing even to spend a premium and fly Transcon to join this amazing vessel in CA!

Carnival Firenze, will set the standard, for The Mexican Rivera.

[Chip1]

23 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

RCL is the first to abandon ports. They try to compete in New Orleans periodically and are always the first to pull out.

 

On New Orleans, Carnival isn't the only game in town as NCL is there seasonally and Disney will put a ship there later this year so that will be four. Of course New Orleans can handle more ships.

 

Carnival Cruise Line is the worldwide leader in abandoning ports. Ports that Carnival has abandoned include:

1)      San Diego – The Spirit used to spend the winter doing 8-day cruises out of San Diego. At one point the Elation used to do 4- and 5-day cruises year-round. Carnival then left and was supposed to send the Miracle to do cruises in the winter that has never happened.

2)      Mobile – After sailing from the port for maybe 8 to 10 years they left. They then came back before leaving again last fall. By the time they return this fall it will be around 1 year since there last sailing in Mobile.

3)      Port Everglades – Before Covid they had a ship homeported at least during the winter. During cruising shut down they left and to the best of my knowledge they have not announced any plans to return.

4)      Norfolk – The year that either the Vista or Horizon entered service there were no sailings. After this year’s sailings on the Magic there are no plans to return until May(?) 2025 when the Sunshine is homeported there.

5)      San Juan - heading into Covid they had a ship homeported In San Juan. To the best of my knowledge there are no plans to return. When Carnival has had a ship in San Juan, they have done dual homeporting for the sailings by allowing people to begin and end their cruise in Barbados. Given that Carnival no longer sails from San Juan it means they have also abandoned Barbados as a homeport.

 

[BlerkOne]

33 minutes ago, Chip1 said:

 

Carnival Cruise Line is the worldwide leader in abandoning ports. Ports that Carnival has abandoned include:

 

Carnival is the worldwide leader. Period. Full stop.

 

33 minutes ago, Chip1 said:

1)      San Diego – The Spirit used to spend the winter doing 8-day cruises out of San Diego. At one point the Elation used to do 4- and 5-day cruises year-round. Carnival then left and was supposed to send the Miracle to do cruises in the winter that has never happened.

Carnival Corp has fewer ships post-Covid but there are the same or more cruise ports. Holland America sails from San Diego. No need for Carnival Brands to compete against each other. Royal almost never ports in San Diego except for repo cruises.

 

33 minutes ago, Chip1 said:

2)      Mobile – After sailing from the port for maybe 8 to 10 years they left. They then came back before leaving again last fall. By the time they return this fall it will be around 1 year since there last sailing in Mobile.

Carnival is there seasonally and leaves for hurricane season. Spirit will return. No other cruise line attempts to sail from Mobile.

 

33 minutes ago, Chip1 said:

3)      Port Everglades – Before Covid they had a ship homeported at least during the winter. During cruising shut down they left and to the best of my knowledge they have not announced any plans to return.

 

Carnival Corp has fewer ships post-Covid but there are the same or more cruise ports. Princess sails from Fort Lauderdale. Carnival sails from Miami. Almost a suburb. No need for Carnival Brands to compete against each other.

 

33 minutes ago, Chip1 said:

4)      Norfolk – The year that either the Vista or Horizon entered service there were no sailings. After this year’s sailings on the Magic there are no plans to return until May(?) 2025 when the Sunshine is homeported there.

A Carnival ship will still be there. How is that abandoning. Quite a stretch. No other cruise line attempts to sail from Norfolk.

 

33 minutes ago, Chip1 said:

5)      San Juan - heading into Covid they had a ship homeported In San Juan. To the best of my knowledge there are no plans to return. When Carnival has had a ship in San Juan, they have done dual homeporting for the sailings by allowing people to begin and end their cruise in Barbados. Given that Carnival no longer sails from San Juan it means they have also abandoned Barbados as a homeport.

 

You may have found one. Royal ports a 26 year old rust bucket there. NCL will be sailing their new flagship from there later this year. Hmmmm.

[BlerkOne]

On 4/5/2023 at 7:32 AM, mz-s said:

 

They cannot compete against their competitor's when both are at the same port, except on price. Look at what happened when RCL came back to Long Beach - those Radiance and Panorama cruises are consistently some of the cheapest in the fleet despite being their newest non-Excel concepts. And competing on price won't pay down debt.

and before the Imagination and Inspiration were some of the cheapest in the fleet. The LA area just doesn't command premium pricing. Royal has to charge more because their costs are higher. Carnival can base two ships there and still make money.

[jsglow]

Unfortunately @BlerkOne, folks think too often only about Carnival, not CCL.  I'm guessing right now but doesn't CCL seasonally have something like 6-7 ships operating from So Cal?  And don't all the Princess ships go from one dock, all the Carnival ships from another and all the HAL ships from San Diego? I'm not going to do all the research but that approach seems pretty smart to me.

[mz-s]

2 hours ago, Chip1 said:

Norfolk – The year that either the Vista or Horizon entered service there were no sailings. After this year’s sailings on the Magic there are no plans to return until May(?) 2025 when the Sunshine is homeported there.

 

 

Carnival is giving Norfolk some time to make some improvements to support full-time homeport operations when Sunshine arrives in 2025.

 

1 hour ago, BlerkOne said:

 Carnival can base two ships there and still make money.

 

$CCL quarterly results determined that was a lie.

[BlerkOne]

24 minutes ago, mz-s said:

 

 

$CCL quarterly results determined that was a lie.

As Carnival Corp doesn't release numbers for individual cruise lines, there may be a lie somewhere.

[tidecat]

1 hour ago, BlerkOne said:

As Carnival Corp doesn't release numbers for individual cruise lines, there may be a lie somewhere.

Maybe, but the North America and Australian (NAA) segment was the only profitable one per the last quarterly earnings report. Given the comments about demand being "a year behind" in Australia, that really means it's the US market carrying the load. Carnival Cruise Line, Princess, and HAL will be most of the NAA segment. 

[CruizinSusan70]

On 4/2/2023 at 11:52 PM, BlerkOne said:

HAL has had 4 ships named Nieuw Amsterdam. 

Similar to George Foreman's sons.

[CruizinSusan70]

On 4/5/2023 at 9:52 AM, CarnivalShips480 said:

 

An ironic thing is that Royal Caribbean made Icon for families with all the things it has, but it is so expensive I can't see how an average family can afford it.

About 1500 + tax for the cheapest inside cabin.  This is the cheapest week available till April of 2025.  

[BlerkOne]

55 minutes ago, tidecat said:

Maybe, but the North America and Australian (NAA) segment was the only profitable one per the last quarterly earnings report. Given the comments about demand being "a year behind" in Australia, that really means it's the US market carrying the load. Carnival Cruise Line, Princess, and HAL will be most of the NAA segment. 

Not only do they not release numbers by individual lines, they don't release numbers on a port basis and there is no way anyone draw any credible conclusion about LA ports. The fact remains that Carnival Corp and Carnival Cruise Line have multiple ships in the area and at least one more coming next year.

[CruizinSusan70]

On 3/31/2023 at 8:58 PM, slavens_09 said:

Do you guys think the Jubilee will be the last XL class ship built for Carnival? 

Yes.  Each of the last three classes of ships have had three ships.  Excel (Mardi Gras, Celebration, Jubilee) Vista (Vista, Horizon, Panorama) Dream (Dream, Magic, Breeze)

Depending upon how successful the first two Venice Class ships are, there could be a third after the Venezia and the Firenze.

[tidecat]

10 minutes ago, CruizinSusan70 said:

Yes.  Each of the last three classes of ships have had three ships.  Excel (Mardi Gras, Celebration, Jubilee) Vista (Vista, Horizon, Panorama) Dream (Dream, Magic, Breeze)

Depending upon how successful the first two Venice Class ships are, there could be a third after the Venezia and the Firenze.

I wouldn't read too much into that. Carnival Jubilee and Carnival Panorama were originally meant for other lines (P&O Australia and AIDA). There isn't another Vista class vessel in Costa or any other brand's fleet to transfer to Carnival Cruise Line. Given that Venezia and Firenze will still have yellow stovepipe funnels, I wouldn't even be surprised if they go back to Costa by 2034.

[jsglow]

I did not know that about Jubilee and Panorama.

[Chip1]

> Carnival Corp has fewer ships post-Covid but there are the same or more cruise ports. Princess sails from Fort Lauderdale. Carnival sails from Miami. Almost a suburb. No need for Carnival Brands to compete against each other.

 

If Carnival brands shouldn't compete against each other then why did then for so long in Port Everglades (seasonally at least 15 years) - with some years competing with HAL, PCL, and Costa

Some years instead of Costa sailing out of Port Everglades they would sail out of Miami competing with Carnival.

 

How come Carnival brands continue to compete against each other in Alaska? Last time I checked Carnival Cruise Line, HAL, and PCL all sail out Seattle. When Carnival first started doing Alaska they competed against HAL, and PCL out of Vancouver - sometimes roundtrip and sometimes 1 way Vancouver to Seward (Anchorage) and reverse.

 

 

 

[jimbo5544]

7 hours ago, jsglow said:

I did not know that about Jubilee and Panorama.

They were slot in a build cycle that were put in place years ago. The facts are that the demand was in CCL.  When they get ready to add new ships I am sure they will use the same logic on where they will go.  CCL’s plan was never to compete on the race for mega of the seas.  There are drawbacks on ships so big that they have def limitations in terms of where they can go and where cannot and no tender ports, etc etc , especially in the Caribbean. 

[jimbo5544]

3 hours ago, Chip1 said:

> Carnival Corp has fewer ships post-Covid but there are the same or more cruise ports. Princess sails from Fort Lauderdale. Carnival sails from Miami. Almost a suburb. No need for Carnival Brands to compete against each other.

 

If Carnival brands shouldn't compete against each other then why did then for so long in Port Everglades (seasonally at least 15 years) - with some years competing with HAL, PCL, and Costa

Some years instead of Costa sailing out of Port Everglades they would sail out of Miami competing with Carnival.

 

How come Carnival brands continue to compete against each other in Alaska? Last time I checked Carnival Cruise Line, HAL, and PCL all sail out Seattle. When Carnival first started doing Alaska they competed against HAL, and PCL out of Vancouver - sometimes roundtrip and sometimes 1 way Vancouver to Seward (Anchorage) and reverse.

 

 

 

The answer to your Alaska question is an easy one, demand.  Princess and HAL do Alaska like no other line, but demand and the limited season are the reason why CCL sails there.  Different client base, not much competition.  Carnival’s plan was, is and will be for the lines to complement each other not compete, much the same way that FCCL and Celebrity do.  In certain markets like Alaska they coexist.