Is Royal Caribbean building any small ships?

[RobInMN]

10 minutes ago, alfaeric said:

I don't know about you, but I would never consider Voyager class small.  

 

It would be great if it's Radiance class, but I've never heard of that suggestion.

I can't find it right now, but I swear someone reported that the Captain of the Radiance mentioned Radiance as a size reference at a recent Q&A. Personally, I believe it will be closer to Voyager rather than Radiance in length, probably wider than Voyager (like NCL's Bliss), but not much taller than Radiance.

[Charles4515]

16 minutes ago, RobInMN said:

Captains: RC is working on Project Discovery. It will be a smaller ship

CC: RC will never do smaller ships again.

Captains: Project Discovery will be about Voyager size

CC: RC will only ever go bigger!

Michael Bayley: We hope to make an announcement about Project Discovery this year (2024)

CC: Project Discovery is dead, never happen

Captains: Project Discovery may be closer to Radiance class size

CC: RC will only do mega ships and will only go to their own private islands and places where they build a beach club.

MB: We will do another UWC, just a question of when, and we need a new ship class

CC: RC will never do another UWC and only build bigger ships, and only need to do Cariibean ports with them.

 

 

Voyager class is not small. I don’t think they will go below Voyager class size. I think Voyager class size 130,000 is possible but that is the bottom line. They can probably squeeze more cabins in than Voyager class with a new design that size. Probably do infinite verandas like on Celebrity Edge. 

[SUgwoz]

5 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

A lot. And the next generation of Pinnacles, also partial to smaller ships (like me) will be in place.

 

 

Along with pinnacles that prefer larger ships as that has been in the focus of Royal for over 2 decades now.

[Charles4515]

7 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

If this was true they wouldn't be building a new class of smaller ships.

Smaller does not equal small. They are not building smaller or small ship currently. It is just an expectation.  I expect they will build a smaller class but they won’t be small ships. 

[RobInMN]

Just now, Charles4515 said:

Voyager class is not small. I don’t think they will go below Voyager class size. I think Voyager class size 130,000 is possible but that is the bottom line. They can probably squeeze more cabins in than Voyager class with a new design that size. Probably do infinite verandas like on Celebrity Edge. 

Smaller does not necessarily mean "small". No one's ever said "Small", only "smaller" as in "Smaller than Oasis/Icon". But there are some size limitations that are good guesses. Neopanamax for length/beam. Nothing sticking out over the hull lines below the bridge. And the air draft limited to 190-200' for bridge clearance to ports they want to service. That could very well mean a passenger count of 4000 (like NCL's Bliss), but I think they'll keep it under 3000. There is a growing concern from some popular ports about ship size (as in passenger count), and limitations of 2500 or less may be a consideration.

 

[smokeybandit]

7 minutes ago, SUgwoz said:

Along with pinnacles that prefer larger ships as that has been in the focus of Royal for over 2 decades now.

Yet the last few years, especially post-restart, the focus has shifted to marketing the larger ships to new cruisers.

[smokeybandit]

3 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

Smaller does not equal small. They are not building smaller or small ship currently. It is just an expectation.  I expect they will build a smaller class but they won’t be small ships. 

Yes, even a Freedom class ship (which there's been no suggestion Discovery is anywhere near that big) is a "small" ship in the RC ecosystem, but not among cruising as a whole.

[The Fun Researcher]

42 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

Yes, even a Freedom class ship (which there's been no suggestion Discovery is anywhere near that big) is a "small" ship in the RC ecosystem, but not among cruising as a whole.

Well, maybe.  Even within Royal's fleet it's hard for me to say Freedom class small.  I would say it's solidly mid size in the fleet.  It's not that far off from the Quantum class.  158,000 GT vs 168,000 respectively.  That's only 6% smaller.  After that you step to the behemoths that dwarf all, Oasis and Icon classes, and yes they have built a lot of them lately. There are still 13 ships smaller than Freedom class in the fleet.

[Hoopster95]

15 hours ago, RobInMN said:

they will do another UWC, but they need a ship with more balconies.

 

Quantum has over 2000 balcony cabins.... 75% of all cabins on the entire ship

 

 

2 hours ago, Southern Dan said:

What about the inside passage route of Alaska?  Replacement ships to fit through the Panama Canal are necessary for repositioning too 

 

Yes, the Alaskan inside passage. Juneau and Skagway are deep into the Alaskan inside passage. What Q Class cannot do is the Canadian/southern portion of the inside passage which basically starts at Victoria and heads northbound on the east side of Vancouver island.

 

Also yes to the Panama Canal.... and this includes the old canal locks. There were many posts and threads a few years back about this, and specifically after I got off Quantum's 3rd ever sailing. I took photos on the bridge tour and in the control room of specifics/statistics regarding Q's specifications through the canal in 2014... I posted those photos here on CC many times on various threads over the years and it was discussed at length with Chengkp75 amongst others in the know regarding the canal.

 

 

Edited July 15 by Hoopster95

[RobInMN]

35 minutes ago, Hoopster95 said:

Quantum has over 2000 balcony cabins.... 75% of all cabins on the entire ship

More balcony's but ship size also plays a part. If you read the RCB article, it was implied that only a new class ship could meet what they would want.

 

38 minutes ago, Hoopster95 said:

Also yes to the Panama Canal.... and this includes the old canal locks. There were many posts and threads a few years back about this, and specifically after I got off Quantum's 3rd ever sailing. I took photos on the bridge tour and in the control room of specifics/statistics regarding Q's specifications through the canal in 2014... I posted those photos here on CC many times on various threads over the years and it was discussed at length with Chengkp75 amongst others in the know regarding the canal.

Yes, technically it might be able to fit, but as having been discussed previously there's more to it than length, beam, and air draft. It's been explained (by @chengkp75 I believe) that the only way you could take a Quantum class ship though the Panama Canal, even the new locks, is if you first removed the life boat davits as they hang over the hull lines.

In order to go through the Panama Canal, you can not have anything hanging out over the hull line below some height above the water (don't recall the height). On Radiance, the life boats are all "self contained" within the hull. None of RC's ships larger than Radiance meet that criteria. On Voyager, the davits are, but the boats stick out part way. On Quantum, the davits themselves stick out. Oasis has a whole cantilevered decks starting with the promenade deck. NCL's Bliss has self-contained within the hull lines life boats. I use Bliss as it is the largest cruise ship to go through the whole canal.

 

[Hoopster95]

So even though there's proof of technical parameters of Quantum Class ships in reference to going through the canal in their control room for all to see, and I posted proof of it, Q Class cannot go through? That's not how I remember all those discussions and threads. Oh well.

Why bother posting pictures of real life proof I guess.

 

And I assume then if Bailey says only a brand new class of ship will do a future WC, then we'll all be waiting until 2029/2030 for the ship to be built. No WC until then.

 

edit... I wish to add re future world cruises:

 

 

 

Edited July 15 by Hoopster95

[RobInMN]

8 minutes ago, Hoopster95 said:

So even though there's proof of technical parameters of Quantum Class ships in reference to going through the canal in their control room for all to see, and I posted proof of it, Q Class cannot go through? That's not how I remember all those discussions and threads. Oh well.

Why bother posting pictures of real life proof I guess.

 

And I assume then if Bailey says only a brand new class of ship will do a future WC, then we'll all be waiting until 2029/2030 for the ship to be built. No WC until then.

 

Those Panamax specifications are not "Quantum's", those are the published Panamax specifications for the canal. Otherwise, how would you explain the fact that Quantum has 2 heights, one of which is "case by case"??

https://pancanal.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/N01-2022.pdf

 

As for the UWC, read the RCB article. Michael Bayley is quoted as saying:

"My team thinks it sucks," Michael Bayley joked, "because it's been extremely complicated and massively expensive."

However, that is immediately followed by:

Mr. Bayley said the management team had to debate the idea of another one. However, despite initial hesitation, Royal Caribbean will do another Ultimate World Cruise.

"The question is when?" Mr. Bayley continued. "We don't know when that is."

 

[Hoopster95]

7 minutes ago, RobInMN said:

Those Panamax specifications are not "Quantum's", those are the published Panamax specifications for the canal. Otherwise, how would you explain the fact that Quantum has 2 heights, one of which is "case by case"??

https://pancanal.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/N01-2022.pdf

 

As for the UWC, read the RCB article. Michael Bayley is quoted as saying:

"My team thinks it sucks," Michael Bayley joked, "because it's been extremely complicated and massively expensive."

However, that is immediately followed by:

Mr. Bayley said the management team had to debate the idea of another one. However, despite initial hesitation, Royal Caribbean will do another Ultimate World Cruise.

"The question is when?" Mr. Bayley continued. "We don't know when that is."

 

 

Ok... I understand... good discussion. Just a thought, by timing the tides Q Class fits under the approx 180ft requirement of the Lion's Gate bridge with 20 feet to spare.

[Another_Critic]

18 minutes ago, Hoopster95 said:

 

Ok... I understand... good discussion. Just a thought, by timing the tides Q Class fits under the approx 180ft requirement of the Lion's Gate bridge with 20 feet to spare.

That would mean that Quantum class could fit into Baltimore (186 ft bridge clearance) or Tampa (180 ft), but I don't think that's possible.

 

FYI - The Lions Gate Bridge clearance is 200 ft.

 

Edited July 15 by Another_Critic

[Hoopster95]

25 minutes ago, Another_Critic said:

That would mean that Quantum class could fit into Baltimore (186 ft bridge clearance) or Tampa (180 ft), but I don't think that's possible.

 

 

I understand that's not possible. Obviously I am not an engineer, just from reading/trying to learn. Here's a photo of Ovation going under the Lion's Gate bridge... The first one is credit to @twangster from the Stanley Park side, the second one is from friends of mine watching the ship go under from the North Vancouver side at Ambleside Park, the 3rd photo is mine.

 

Note the funnels are retracted.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 15 by Hoopster95

[Another_Critic]

21 minutes ago, Hoopster95 said:

 

I understand that's not possible. Obviously I am not an engineer, just from reading/trying to learn. Here's a photo of Ovation going under the Lion's Gate bridge... The first one is credit to @twangster from the Stanley Park side, the second one is from friends of mine watching the ship go under from the North Vancouver side at Ambleside Park, the 3rd photo is mine.

 

Note the funnels are retracted.

 

You missed my edit:  "FYI - The Lions Gate Bridge clearance is 200 ft."

[gumshoe958]

2 hours ago, Hoopster95 said:

So even though there's proof of technical parameters of Quantum Class ships in reference to going through the canal in their control room for all to see, and I posted proof of it, Q Class cannot go through? That's not how I remember all those discussions and threads. Oh well.

Why bother posting pictures of real life proof I guess.

 

And I assume then if Bailey says only a brand new class of ship will do a future WC, then we'll all be waiting until 2029/2030 for the ship to be built. No WC until then.

 

 

Bayley can promise whatever he likes in the full knowledge that he’ll be long gone by 2029/30 and it’ll be someone else deciding whether there’s another WC or not.

 

This is the same Bayley who promised that Icon of the Seas would debut in the UK. His promises are completely and utterly empty but hey, it makes for good PR.

[HBE4]

4 hours ago, The Fun Researcher said:

Even within Royal's fleet it's hard for me to say Freedom class small.  I would say it's solidly mid size in the flee

 

Agreed. In my mind - and perhaps only in my mind - this is how I would classify them:

 

Small = Vision & Radiance.

Mid-size = Voyager & Freedom

Large =  Quantum & Icon

Extra Large = Oasis.

 

Given that the last 12 ships ordered by Royal have with been either L or XL, I think the real question to be asked: "Is Royal going to build anymore mid-sized ships"? I would think "yes".

 

JMHO

[smokeybandit]

Freedom is still the #35 largest cruise ship in the world, larger than all but 3 of Carnival's ships.

Edited July 15 by smokeybandit

[HBE4]

On 7/12/2024 at 10:19 PM, PhillyFan33579 said:

Most people who want/like smaller ships are older passengers who miss the way cruising use to be in the past. It’s pretty obvious RCI’s main focus these days is on younger families with kids.

 

I somewhat agree with this. It does seem like the older passengers that like "traditional " cruising gravitate towards the smaller ships. But then, so do people of all ages that like port-intensive itineraries.

 

And yes, Royal does love young families with young kids. But they market themselves as "multi-generational"  so that includes middle-age parents with teens or young adult children as well as the grandparents. Something for everyone.  That is why I think they'll offer enough ships & itineraries to serve everyone.

 

[alfaeric]

1 hour ago, HBE4 said:

 

Agreed. In my mind - and perhaps only in my mind - this is how I would classify them:

 

Small = Vision & Radiance.

Mid-size = Voyager & Freedom

Large =  Quantum & Icon

Extra Large = Oasis.

 

Given that the last 12 ships ordered by Royal have with been either L or XL, I think the real question to be asked: "Is Royal going to build anymore mid-sized ships"? I would think "yes".

 

JMHO

Icon is actually bigger than Oasis, so that's extra large. (248k GT vs. 227k)

 

And Quantum is not much larger than Freedom- 168k vs. 154k delta of 12k GT

 

Freedom is just a longer Voyager.  But it's bigger relative to Voyager 154k compared to 137k delta of 17k GT.

 

Just to be accurate.

[SUgwoz]

1 hour ago, HBE4 said:

 

I somewhat agree with this. It does seem like the older passengers that like "traditional " cruising gravitate towards the smaller ships. But then, so do people of all ages that like port-intensive itineraries.

 

And yes, Royal does love young families with young kids. But they market themselves as "multi-generational"  so that includes middle-age parents with teens or young adult children as well as the grandparents. Something for everyone.  That is why I think they'll offer enough ships & itineraries to serve everyone.

 

Multi generation doesn't mean they have to have small ship and special itineraries. Just means they have entertainment and experiences that are not targeting kids only (See Disney).

 

The rise of cruise lines focusing on a singular demographic has been lauded by many.  Viking, Virgin, Celebrity, Disney, they are offering a product that is more consistent fleet wide. 

[latebuyer]

I think many people are stating that families only like the large ships. I don't think thats the case. Some are happy with the games offered on the small ships from what i've heard and like to do it the old fashioned way. My nieces love games.

[SUgwoz]

19 minutes ago, latebuyer said:

I think many people are stating that families only like the large ships. I don't think thats the case. Some are happy with the games offered on the small ships from what i've heard and like to do it the old fashioned way. My nieces love games.

Wouldn't Celebrity be a good choice then? 

[mil76]

9 hours ago, RobInMN said:

"Norway" can do Quantum class, but not the main draw fjords, and you are not doing Arctic Circle on a Quantum. And even without the environmental limitations, I doubt they'd be allowed to go to Flam or Geiranger. Starting next year, it will take a new class of ship before RC will be able to back to either of those ports anyway. I'm not totally sure if LNG even counts. Also, the Radiance class barely fits in Honningsvag, the pier is about 1/3rd the length of the ship as it is. 🙂 

Quantum class is already going to the fjords.  Anthem is there this summer, and the impending changes are why we went on Anthem last month.  We did go to Flam and Olden and she is also going to Geiranger on other sailings. Originally Norway was requiring zero emissions by 2026, but it looks like they are relaxing the rules for 10 years to allow biofuels, and now I have read that cruise operators may just have to prove they have bought enough biofuel to be used elsewhere to offset their energy consumption in the fjords.  

 

https://www.dnv.com/expert-story/maritime-impact/latest-updates-on-proposed-rules-for-zero-emissions-in-Norways-World-Heritage-fjords/

 

If this is true then they could still do the fjords as-is until 2035 by offsetting the Norway cruises with biofuels elsewhere.  Definitely kicks the can down the road for them.