Seabourn v Silversea

[SLSD]

21 minutes ago, saminina said:

Scenic, Windstar, Explora, scattered about.  It's always been a transient industry, but it's been a mass exodus with SB.   Long before Covid, we spent time on Sojourn and found our favorite bartender and executive chef from that cruise on board Europa.   We all departed Sojourn and hopped on Europa within a month of one another.   Strange to go shopping with the chef in Walvis Bay and reconnect a month later with a different company.  That's the fun part of cruising.

We encountered an excellent crew on Ovation in June.  In fact, we had the best service we have had on any Seabourn cruise so far.  

[2SailingNomads]

49 minutes ago, Vineyard View said:

I realize a lot of people left the industry during Covid to survive and stayed away. But if the best crew have jum[ed ship elsewhere, where did they go?

Many went to Scenic, our cruise with them last June 80% of hotel department were ex-Seabourn.  Second cruise a few months ago, not sure of the number but still high and some faces we knew from SB had joined.  However, more than a few have gone elsewhere including to Regent.  We also met more than a couple of former SB on Regent, including one long time bar manager who came up to me one day, totally caught me off guard and addressed me by name and said I remember you from many cruises on SB.  I think the take-away is in the past SB had a lot of loyalty among the crew, now it is different.  One person on Scenic told us a story about some issues SB various crew had while on the ship that I am not at liberty to repeat that I was very surprised to hear about.   Suffice it to say tensions between different XXX that could manifest in various forms.

[Vineyard View]

Well, I have no idea, but as you say,I am guessing that this is part of the industry  so to speak. We met a couple servers on Quest who had come from other non mass lines for reasons that made them happy to be there. I hope that with the new top Mgmt changes at SB things will return to what all of you remember. 

[2SailingNomads]

And for many years after several top managers went to WindStar SB crew followed.  I think more competition in the high end market means more opportunities for experienced crew to move around. 

To the earlier conversation, loyalty means something, itinerary means a lot, last experience on the ship matters for will I book something else or even pay for a FCC.  Seabourn was our first cruise and for many years the only line we looked at.  Now we no longer only look at Seabourn.   Have 3 Regent cruises, over the next 2 years, booked,  Laundry is certainly a nice perk, Regent 1st cruise you get it.  Scenic, which  we will be back on in a month and no free laundry (Scenic has other issues for me beyond laundry).  Will be on Ponant in 6 days, a totally new experience.  So looking forward to our Explora cruise next year, from what I have seen / read that looks like a real potential new home. 

 

Price is, of course a consideration - even for my friends who take the most expensive suite on a ship.

 

For us the premium for the "included" tours on Regent which some are pretty decent or we might not take is NOT going to come into play.  It will be the service, food, itinerary and last experience on-board that will drive our decision.  If I can pay less and get a great experience, wonderful.  If I can pay less and have an inferior experience than at this stage of my life I prefer to pay more.  JMO and YMMV

Edited August 21, 2023 by 2SailingNomads
Correct typos

[Mr Luxury]

You will find ex Seabourn crew everywhere in the industry.

They have some of the best training and it gives them a good CV to get work on any other line.

This week i found an ex Crystal butler who is now head waiter in TK Grill on the Encore.

Staff move for various reasons.

[texanaust]

 

We are no longer loyal to just Seabourn as the product no longer justifies it.  We have had great experiences on MSC Yacht Club, Silversea, Cunard and even have an upcoming Azamara booked. 

 

We have also found a land based Seabourn alternative in our favorite spa town in Italy.  With Explora, New Crystal and others, there will be plenty of competition for your $$$$ in the next few years.  Seabourn is still a good product and we continue to book, but just less.   

[2SailingNomads]

It will be interesting to see over the next few years what happens price-wise.  Right now lots of pent up demand / revenge travel.  Will there be as much demand in a year or 2?  And lots of new product coming to the market.  A few years ago I was telling multiple people IMO the number of ships coming into the expedition market was getting too large to sustain prices.  Now we get a lot of good offers for expedition cruises.  (Friends are currently on Scenic II - it has all of 48 pax on it's current sailing).  

 

Non-expedition luxury cruise lines have a lot of competition, Silver Sea has launched several new ships the last 4 or so years and now has the Nova and another similar sister coming on-line; Explora with 900 pax is building 6 ships.  Regent has Grandeur launching in November.  Lots of new beds to put bodies in... 

 

Seabourn has said no new ships (although last cruise someone who definitely would know told us there is an idea - and interesting to me - being considered) are planned.  Time will tell, the luxury cruise market is a lot bigger and better than when we first sailed on the Legend, which was an incredible introduction to cruising. 

[markandjie]

14 hours ago, 2SailingNomads said:

Seabourn has said no new ships (although last cruise someone who definitely would know told us there is an idea - and interesting to me - being considered) are planned.

 

Your analysis and thinking seems pretty spot on to me. I'm also VERY curious to see how the market develops. On our last SB cruise (Venture) we were told that SB wasn't really shopping Odyssey, but they got a great offer they couldn't refuse so took advantage of it. Given it's their oldest ship and likely in need of a refit in the coming years made it all the more obvious.

 

I do wonder whether they are looking around and thinking that the luxury market is getting WAY more crowded, especially in the 600-1000 pax segment (Explora, Viking, new SS ships, etc), perhaps it doesn't make sense to try to compete as directly there. Further, given Seabourn's roots in smaller ships (and many customers and staff alike pine for the old days of the 'three sisters'), they're well positioned with Venture and Pursuit... So maybe they make do with the new fleet of 6 for a bit and see who fails and what ships come up for sale, perhaps at a significant discount to a new build.

 

I don't believe that Seabourn, or any luxury cruise line, has to engage in a massive buildout to stay profitable. Staying smaller, which makes it easier to maintain a well trained and experienced crew, could be a winning bet in the current environment.

 

Curious what you heard is being considered...

[Vineyard View]

9 hours ago, markandjie said:.

 

I don't believe that Seabourn, or any luxury cruise line, has to engage in a massive buildout to stay profitable. Staying smaller, which makes it easier to maintain a well trained and experienced crew, could be a winning bet in the current environment.

 

Curious what you heard is being considered...

Even though Viking is not part of the luxury market with exception to pricing now days, their rapid expansion has certainly generated a lot of dialogue around experienced crew members, and lack thereof. We read this across all lines. There are only so many in the industry, and a reduced number post pandemic. I believe after reading quite a bit on Viking,  whom we sailed multiple times pre C, that there are growing pains. How that plays out remains to be seen. 

[Hlitner]

I think that Viking and Explora Journeys are a huge game changer in the luxury market.  While Viking is more of a premium rather than luxury product, the lines are somewhat blurred.  And the new Explora Journeys will likely add 5 more ships (within the next 6 years) to their current 1 ship line.  Like Viking, these will be 900 passenger ships that target the premium/luxury market.  Increased competition is good for those not us who routinely move between lines. We think that SB still has a good place in the luxury market,  but the balance sheet of CCL might handicap them in the future. 
 

As one who cruises many different mass market, premium and luxury lines, I see all this as a big win for cruisers.

 

Hank

[markham]

It’s all down to CCL’s strength and strategic vision going forward. That will drive whatever  possibilities there may be to build new classic ships so Seabourn can compete with rivals such as Silversea with its Nova/Ray class triumphs and whatever the even larger ships of Explora offer.

 

Why wasn’t Seabourn doing the “ambition thing” 3-4 years ago designing new ships for delivery now - like Silversea? My answer is that CCL did not know what to do then but more importantly chose not to. Did CCL want to expand the Seabourn brand? Probably not, apart from the expedition side with the terrific Venture and Pursuit. Arguably CCL are best at mass market businesses, make better margins at it, and act that way.
 

Nothing I have seen up to today leads me to think otherwise. And I do have perfect hindsight for my own observations. As for the future? Well, that is CCL’s business. Maybe they will tell us.

 

Happy and healthy sailing!

Edited August 23, 2023 by markham

[Mr Luxury]

57 minutes ago, markham said:

It’s all down to CCL’s strength and strategic vision going forward. That will drive whatever  possibilities there may be to build new classic ships so Seabourn can compete with rivals such as Silversea with its Nova/Ray class triumphs and whatever the even larger ships of Explora offer.

 

Why wasn’t Seabourn doing the “ambition thing” 3-4 years ago designing new ships for delivery now - like Silversea? My answer is that CCL did not know what to do then but more importantly chose not to. Did CCL want to expand the Seabourn brand? Probably not, apart from the expedition side with the terrific Venture and Pursuit. Arguably CCL are best at mass market businesses, make better margins at it, and act that way.
 

Nothing I have seen up to today leads me to think otherwise. And I do have perfect hindsight for my own observations. As for the future? Well, that is CCL’s business. Maybe they will tell us.

 

Happy and healthy sailing!

It would have been a very different story if the Saudi buyers hadn't pulled out.

Venture and Pursuit are being marketed heavily and I see that sector as the focus going forward.

[markham]

Mr L,

 

Since we don’t know what any Saudi buyers might have wanted to buy and for how much, we don’t know what CCL might have thought about spending on Seabourn’s future. As far as those of us who have historically enjoyed the product it is rather unfortunate that the classic ship design vision thing was apparently sorta flat just a years ago. Could Rick Meadows, ex-HAL, have upped the game beyond what was delivered ie Encore and Ovation? I guess not or we would have see Seabourn in a far better competitive position today. Sure, there’s always catchup in the industry, but these times are sure much tougher.

 

Happy and healthy sailing!

Edited August 23, 2023 by markham

[markandjie]

3 hours ago, markham said:

That will drive whatever  possibilities there may be to build new classic ships so Seabourn can compete with rivals such as Silversea with its Nova/Ray class triumphs and whatever the even larger ships of Explora offer.

 

This is where we're coming at things from completely different places. I have zero desire to cruise ships larger than they have to be, and were Seabourn to announce new 700 or 900 passenger ships I'd be disappointed, no matter how beautiful they may be. 

[SLSD]

2 hours ago, markham said:

Mr L,

 

Since we don’t know what any Saudi buyers might have wanted to buy and for how much, we don’t know what CCL might have thought about spending on Seabourn’s future. As far as those of us who have historically enjoyed the product it is rather unfortunate that the classic ship design vision thing was apparently sorta flat just a years ago. Could Rick Meadows, ex-HAL, have upped the game beyond what was delivered ie Encore and Ovation? I guess not or we would have see Seabourn in a far better competitive position today. Sure, there’s always catchup in the industry, but these times are sure much tougher.

 

Happy and healthy sailing!

I think the biggest mistake SB made was not anticipating the need for more diverse dining venues in keeping with the idea of a luxury cruise line.  While they instituted the TK Grill, it has not been universally popular.  I think just having it as a third exceptional restaurant would have been more of a winner.   I know I sound like a broken record, but a buffet is so downmarket.  Silversea was more imaginative and came up with the idea of the Salt Kitchen--an idea I really like.  I know you like a walking track and I would like that as well.  Too bad they did not/could not design a ship that had one.  In addition, I 've never thought the idea of The Club has been effectively realized.  Maybe I am wrong about that?  

[Mr Luxury]

26 minutes ago, SLSD said:

I think the biggest mistake SB made was not anticipating the need for more diverse dining venues in keeping with the idea of a luxury cruise line.  While they instituted the TK Grill, it has not been universally popular.  I think just having it as a third exceptional restaurant would have been more of a winner.   I know I sound like a broken record, but a buffet is so downmarket.  Silversea was more imaginative and came up with the idea of the Salt Kitchen--an idea I really like.  I know you like a walking track and I would like that as well.  Too bad they did not/could not design a ship that had one.  In addition, I 've never thought the idea of The Club has been effectively realized.  Maybe I am wrong about that?  

Seabourn has Earth and Ocean which has been very well received albeit with a small selection that changes each evening.

This restaurant dishes up hot food consistently which is more that can be said of The Restaurant and the Colonnade.

TK Grill is at capacity every evening and the TK bar with the pianist is for me the best place for a pre dinner drink.

On Silversea Atlantide is the most consistent restaurant with the best service and selection of food.

The SALT bar is the place for me for a pre dinner drink.

Both are good but the Nova class for Silversea is getting rave reviews as is the  Pursuit from Seabourn which is where I'll be from Sunday.

No day at sea is bad is it,

[SLSD]

53 minutes ago, Mr Luxury said:

Seabourn has Earth and Ocean which has been very well received albeit with a small selection that changes each evening.

This restaurant dishes up hot food consistently which is more that can be said of The Restaurant and the Colonnade.

TK Grill is at capacity every evening and the TK bar with the pianist is for me the best place for a pre dinner drink.

On Silversea Atlantide is the most consistent restaurant with the best service and selection of food.

The SALT bar is the place for me for a pre dinner drink.

Both are good but the Nova class for Silversea is getting rave reviews as is the  Pursuit from Seabourn which is where I'll be from Sunday.

No day at sea is bad is it,

Earth and Ocean is our very favorite restaurant on the SB ships--but, it is subject to the weather and not always available.  The Restaurant disappointed me a bit on our June Ovation cruise. I know that this is a highly subjective comment, but I am sticking with it. It was the first time I've been disappointed in the main restaurant.   And we never dined in the Colonnade except for the first day at lunch on the Veranda. We'll branch out a bit more next time and at least try to dine there in the evening on the veranda.  I just find the indoor venue very unappealing.    

[Mr Luxury]

24 minutes ago, SLSD said:

Earth and Ocean is our very favorite restaurant on the SB ships--but, it is subject to the weather and not always available.  The Restaurant disappointed me a bit on our June Ovation cruise. I know that this is a highly subjective comment, but I am sticking with it. It was the first time I've been disappointed in the main restaurant.   And we never dined in the Colonnade except for the first day at lunch on the Veranda. We'll branch out a bit more next time and at least try to dine there in the evening on the veranda.  I just find the indoor venue very unappealing.    

I eat in TK most evenings 

Only twice in the MDR this cruise and room service three times.

Never Colonnade for any meal.

Restaurant closed breakfast and lunch.

[SLSD]

3 minutes ago, Mr Luxury said:

I eat in TK most evenings 

Only twice in the MDR this cruise and room service three times.

Never Colonnade for any meal.

Restaurant closed breakfast and lunch.

 

3 minutes ago, Mr Luxury said:

I eat in TK most evenings 

Only twice in the MDR this cruise and room service three times.

Never Colonnade for any meal.

Restaurant closed breakfast and lunch.

You sound a bit like us. I could dine on the TK appetizers and do fine.  I haven't been a fan of their steaks and some of the other entrees.  I like the Dover Sole.  We won't discuss the closure of the Restaurant for breakfast and lunch again. Now tell us,  How do you manage to get a table at the TK most evenings?  

[markham]

SLSD,

 

Dinner at Earth and Ocean is OK for what it is: 3 choices of appetizers, 3 mains and 3 desserts, but for very very few people, only those who can grab tables. (Wouldn’t it make sense to have a reservations system as TKG does to manage the space better and more fairly?)

 

And you are right: Seabourn has too few dining options, and when those that are offered and either not offered (MDR breakfasts and lunch on many cruises without prior notice on some rational basis) or what is there is a rugby scrum - the Colonnade - well, that is not luxury, no matter what those who defend the brand will chirp. And then there are the 3/3 limit of choices on the MDR lunch menu (as at E&O) when the place is open. This is just not luxury; it’s farcical and you are on vacation.

 

Sooner or later I trust you will try the newer 4 Silversea ships. We recently left Dawn and enjoyed the deep variety of authentic and deep menus at our different choices for our daily meals. And who doesn’t like Italian food at either La Terrazza or Spaccanapoli? Just tell your husband it’s gonna be a treat- like visiting a new sophisticated European truly 5 star hotel. And about those missing soaps on Seabourn, no problem with Bulgari the house brand and many other choices, and also bath salts etc, something luxury hotels have but Seabourn doesn’t.

 

Try it. We did and not know what we are getting and not getting on Seabourn as we wind down our deposits and rolled up past reservations.

 

Happy and healthy sailing!

[Mr Luxury]

9 hours ago, SLSD said:

 

You sound a bit like us. I could dine on the TK appetizers and do fine.  I haven't been a fan of their steaks and some of the other entrees.  I like the Dover Sole.  We won't discuss the closure of the Restaurant for breakfast and lunch again. Now tell us,  How do you manage to get a table at the TK most evenings?  

Steaks at TK were absolutely perfect and delicious.

Dover Sole good,roast chicken good,

Daily specials also excellent.

Michael Sandoval ex TK in Napa was on board for the first week and cooked off menu for us which was a delight,other diners also experienced his talents.

We always have a drink at the TK bar then choose wine with the sommelier.

We dine at 20.30-45

The restaurant is half full by then as early diners have left.

[markham]

How does Mr L get into the TKG? He’s a bit modest but he has earned his place. He has worked his way from Provisions to AMD, his newest role, in a mere 12 years.

 

Well done, Mr L.

 

Happy and healthy sailing!

[Mr Luxury]

11 minutes ago, markham said:

How does Mr L get into the TKG? He’s a bit modest but he has earned his place. He has worked his way from Provisions to AMD, his newest role, in a mere 12 years.

 

Well done, Mr L.

 

Happy and healthy sailing!

I'm the chief food taster for new TK offerings.

Seriously after our visit to the MDR on the second day we wanted to give it a wide berth.

It's a dreadful room,tables too close together and a feeling of chaos where service should be slick and unobtrusive.

Colonnade not an option for us at dinner and E&O good hot food but not much choice.

TK has been our only option for good food,good service and a nice place to dine in.

Pursuit on Sunday then a Nova cruise beckons.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Mr Luxury

[texanaust]

56 minutes ago, Mr Luxury said:

Steaks at TK were absolutely perfect and delicious.

Dover Sole good,roast chicken good,

Daily specials also excellent.

Michael Sandoval ex TK in Napa was on board for the first week and cooked off menu for us which was a delight,other diners also experienced his talents.

We always have a drink at the TK bar then choose wine with the sommelier.

We dine at 20.30-45

The restaurant is half full by then as early diners have left.

 

Did Chef Mike serve you the 'French Toast' appetizer?  That was the best part of our off menu TK experience with him on Ovation a few weeks ago.  

[Isklaar]

31 minutes ago, Mr Luxury said:

I'm the chief food taster for new TK offerings.

Seriously after our visit to the MDR on the second day we wanted to give it a wide berth.

It's a dreadful room,tables too close together and a feeling of chaos where service should be slick and unobtrusive.

Colonnade not an option for us at dinner and E&O good hot food but not much choice.

TK has been our only option for good food,good service and a nice place to dine in.

Pursuit on Sunday then a Nova cruise beckons.

 

Mr L, just for sake of clarity, is it specifically MDR on Encore/Ovation that you find dreadful? I found it awful too on Ovation but on O class ships I like it much better. 

 

Very much looking forward to reading your thoughts about Pursuit, as an aside, I have in my head that you are also trying Explora. Or have I made that up?