Just off Prima- Not the best cruise...

[UKstages]

2 hours ago, david_sobe said:

What about installing a $5.95 cover charge

 

i like this idea. well, i don't actually like the idea; i don't like the idea of paying for indulge at all! (although, i probably would. i certainly would if i was on land.)

 

but let me take you down a slightly different road. building on your idea of limiting access...  what if every passenger on a seven day cruise got three "passes" to indulge? lunch or dinner. or it could be four passes, with two being for lunch and two being for dinner? (breakfast would still be open admission.) conceivably, you'd get five or six passes for a ten day cruise. and so on.

 

it could be coded on your card, much like specialty dining is now coded on your card. you could also purchase additional passes for a nominal fee, perhaps $5.95, perhaps $9.95. 

 

i think this would similarly cut down on crowding, although not entirely. sea days would still be crowded and peak times would no doubt still be crowded... but probably not so much. it could habe the reverse effect, of course... it could build demand because folks would not want to waste their valuable passes... perhaps people who never visited would feel like they would have to.

 

as for margaritaville... it will be interesting to see what happens with american diner now becoming a contemporary, er, i mean, complimentary restaurant. will the crowds return? or was the jimmy buffet connection part of the appeal?

 

2 hours ago, luv2kroooz said:

There are card readers in the iPads.

 

the card readers are there because the device manufacturer put them there... it's the same device used in many pay for play restaurants on land. they are indeed used to verify drink purchases in indulge or for beverage overages above $15 (if you don't have the plus drink package).

 

NCL could use the technology to start charging for indulge access, but it would be billed to your folio, as with all onboard charges. you certainly wouldn't need a card reader in a traditional sense... for credit cards. besides, everybody knows... contemporary cruisers don't need no stinkin' credit cards!

 

5 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

From what I've read, it's a good food venue/option.

 

some of the finest food at sea. on NCL or any other line. particularly if you like indian food, as many contemporary cruisers do. i would have preferred that american diner be converted to an indulge food hall or at least "indulge light," as most american diners aren't big enough to support this dining concept.

 

 

[graphicguy]

4 minutes ago, UKstages said:

 

i like this idea. well, i don't actually like the idea; i don't like the idea of paying for indulge at all! (although, i probably would. i certainly would if i was on land.)

 

but let me take you down a slightly different road. building on your idea of limiting access...  what if every passenger on a seven day cruise got three "passes" to indulge? lunch or dinner. or it could be four passes, with two being for lunch and two being for dinner? (breakfast would still be open admission.) conceivably, you'd get five or six passes for a ten day cruise. and so on.

 

it could be coded on your card, much like specialty dining is now coded on your card. you could also purchase additional passes for a nominal fee, perhaps $5.95, perhaps $9.95. 

 

i think this would similarly cut down on crowding, although not entirely. sea days would still be crowded and peak times would no doubt still be crowded... but probably not so much. it could habe the reverse effect, of course... it could build demand because folks would not want to waste their valuable passes... perhaps people who never visited would feel like they would have to.

 

as for margaritaville... it will be interesting to see what happens with american diner now becoming a contemporary, er, i mean, complimentary restaurant. will the crowds return? or was the jimmy buffet connection part of the appeal?

 

 

the card readers are there because the device manufacturer put them there... it's the same device used in many pay for play restaurants on land. they are indeed used to verify drink purchases in indulge or for beverage overages above $15 (if you don't have the plus drink package).

 

NCL could use the technology to start charging for indulge access, but it would be billed to your folio, as with all onboard charges. you certainly wouldn't need a card reader in a traditional sense... for credit cards. besides, everybody knows... contemporary cruisers don't need no stinkin' credit cards!

 

 

some of the finest food at sea. on NCL or any other line. particularly if you like indian food, as many contemporary cruisers do. i would have preferred that american diner be converted to an indulge food hall or at least "indulge light," as most american diners aren't big enough to support this dining concept.

 

 

American Diner is and always has been an outlier.  They really are/were mediocre as a diner.  And, even whey they were a free venue (I remember eating breakfast there for "no charge" at one point), it still wasn't anything I'd make a special trip to go to.  Even the Margaritaville Restaurant was fair.  But, even their land based restaurants were never all that good for what they charge.

 

It just seems like a place in a poor location that no matter what they try, it just doesn't work.  Make it a Fuddruckers.  Maybe even try a SmashBurger or Jimmy Johns.  See if those would work.  At least they'd be way better than some anonymous "Diner" concept.

[cruiseny4life]

3 minutes ago, UKstages said:

i think this would similarly cut down on crowding, although not entirely. sea days would still be crowded and peak times would no doubt still be crowded... but probably not so much. it could habe the reverse effect, of course... it could build demand because folks would not want to waste their valuable passes... perhaps people who never visited would feel like they would have to.

I don't recall, hence the question:

 

Was Indulge crowded for dinner on your cruise? We went to Indulge three different evenings on our cruise and never had an issue finding a table. I don't mean we only circled once. I mean we walked in, found a table, and started ordering instantly. 

 

Lunch...well that was a little bit more tricky, but not as bad as others have experienced. We definitely circled a couple of times before finding a seat, except when we entered five minutes before opening time. That time we found a seat immediately. 

[luv2kroooz]

38 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

Ummmm...I am calm.  I don't know if I'm "contemporary".  My birth certificate says maybe not.  

Haha, no worries. To date, "Contemporary" is an abstract, undefined term, so no one really knows. It can be whatever you want it to be.  I suppose you could be "contemporary" today and old fashioned tomorrow. It's a beautiful thing.

 

I have seen it used on these boards to explain away flaws in ship design. It is also regularly trotted out to disguise cutbacks in the customer experience onboard ships.

[UKstages]

33 minutes ago, cruiseny4life said:

Was Indulge crowded for dinner on your cruise? We went to Indulge three different evenings on our cruise and never had an issue finding a table. I don't mean we only circled once. I mean we walked in, found a table, and started ordering instantly. 

 

you and your husband lead charmed lives.

 

yes, always crowded at dinner.  i circled, too, like a plane waiting to land at la guardia during a storm.

 

7 minutes ago, luv2kroooz said:

"Contemporary" is an abstract, undefined term, so no one really knows. It can be whatever you want it to be.  I suppose you could be "contemporary" today and old fashioned tomorrow. It's a beautiful thing.

 

the contemporary cruiser eschews labels and looks upon societal conventions with disdain. the contemporary cruiser is a free spirit with limitless potential and untapped capacity for joy, benevolence and understanding. 

 

all kidding aside... the odd thing about what the "contemporary cruiser" is said to enjoy and prefer is that the contemporary cruiser is too young to know about anything else. when it is said that the contemporary cruiser doesn't like buffets... it must be acknowledged that, if true, in many cases, the contemporary cruiser onboard the prima only has the prima buffet on which to base a decision. the fact is that all types of cruisers don't like the prima buffet... it's  a lousy buffet. it has nothing to do with the cruiser's age and everything to do with the buffet's size, design and quality.

[PATRLR]

45 minutes ago, cruiseny4life said:

Was Indulge crowded for dinner on your cruise? We went to Indulge three different evenings on our cruise and never had an issue finding a table. I don't mean we only circled once. I mean we walked in, found a table, and started ordering instantly. 

 

Lunch...well that was a little bit more tricky, but not as bad as others have experienced. We definitely circled a couple of times before finding a seat, except when we entered five minutes before opening time. That time we found a seat immediately. 

Viva in December, we ate dinner at Indulge once and walked right in.  Walked through there another time at dinner and not that crowded.  Lunch however was a different story - always crowded but not as crowded as the buffet.  Breakfast one time we went we found a table easily, but it was kinda busy.

[PATRLR]

4 minutes ago, UKstages said:

all kidding aside... the odd thing about what the "contemporary cruiser" is said to enjoy and prefer is that the contemporary cruiser is too young to know about anything else. when it is said that the contemporary cruiser doesn't like buffets... it must be acknowledged that, if true, in many cases, the contemporary cruiser onboard the prima only has the prima buffet on which to base a decision. the fact is that all types of cruisers don't like the prima buffet... it's  a lousy buffet. it has nothing to do with the cruiser's age and everything to do with the buffet's size, design and quality.

I think you are giving the "contemporary cruiser" term way too much credit, as if it was actually intended to represent something real.  It's a marketing term intended to deflect from the real issue of cost cutting.   Just like "for your convenience" was meaningless (no one at NCL was doing anything for our convenience), so is "contemporary cruiser" meaningless.  

[UKstages]

16 minutes ago, PATRLR said:

I think you are giving the "contemporary cruiser" term way too much credit, as if it was actually intended to represent something real. 

 

no, i think you may have missed the subtext... and the context.

 

the term "contemporary cruiser" was picked up from a frequent poster on this board. that poster has repeatedly used the term to explain and dismiss a number of unpopular changes enacted by NCL. many here, including me, disagree with that analysis (that the "contemporary cruiser" prefers this or that) and we now use the epithet in a playful way to point out the ridiculousness of any statement which purports to know what the "contemporary cruiser" prefers.

 

but then i went on to make a serious point... if one were to assume that a contemporary cruiser was somebody on the younger side... they only know what they know. one can't say that "contemporary cruisers" don't like buffets if the only buffet they know is the prima buffet, or even a larger buffet on a ship like the getaway or the joy,.. at which cutbacks have made the buffets choice and quality a shadow of its former incarnation.

Edited January 18 by UKstages

[schmoopie17]

I heard a rumor that FDR's grandkids didn't like the evening turn down service or Broadway-style shows...or hash browns. 

 

Those are some powerful grandkids. 

 

Oops...I may have just triggered the hash brown thread haters. Oh, well...

[UKstages]

you have been misled. 

 

they don't like turn down service or hash browns.

 

they like turn down service with hash browns.

 

there is no finer feeling at sea than to return to your stateroom to discover a hockey puck on your pillow at bedtime.

[graphicguy]

LOL!  Now, we're debating semantics.  Only on Cruise Critic!!!!!!

[ysolde]

We are booked on Viva in November/December (Lisbon-San Juan).  It will be interesting to see how this ship handles a late season Mediterranean/North African cruise that then crosses the Atlantic and finally heads to a few Caribbean ports.  I am not sure how many fellow passengers to expect (these TA/repositioning cruises are usually far less full than others because they are off-season and long-ish).  We are booked in a (non-Haven) suite, which means we will have access to breakfast and lunch in one of the specialty restaurants (I can't remember which one).  Given what we have read about crowds, we will probably go to our assigned dining room for breakfast and lunch, for the most part, venturing out to Indulge when the mood strikes (I do love tapas, and frankly, we both find the concept intriguing, and, pardon the pun, appetizing).  We have become huge fans of Regent, and the way they do buffet is sort of like the way Indulge is set up.  Not exactly (no tablets).  But the concept of finding a table and having a waiter come to you is not that far off from the way Regent does buffet (at Regent, you go to the buffet, pick your food, return to your table, and a waiter brings the plated food to your table).  So Indulge does seem to be a way to make buffet a more upscale experience, I think.

 

I am also curious how it will be on a series of probably chilly sea days when people will be more or less forced by the weather to gather indoors.  It will take a smart cruise director and staff to disperse the crowds and make the best possible use of the indoor space.  We shall see.

[PATRLR]

15 minutes ago, UKstages said:

 

no, i think you may have missed the subtext... and the context.

 

the term "contemporary cruiser" was picked up from a frequent poster on this board. that poster has repeatedly used the term to explain and dismiss a number of unpopular changes enacted by NCL. many here, including me, disagree with that analysis (that the "contemporary cruiser" prefers this or that) and we now use the epithet in a playful way to point out the ridiculousness of any statement which purports to know what the "contemporary cruiser" prefers.

 

I get all that and I agree 100%

 

 

15 minutes ago, UKstages said:

but then i went on to make a serious point...

Exactly.  And that's what I was commenting on.  Trying to make a serious point about an otherwise inane phrase gives that phrase too much credence.

 

 

[Sugar Magnolia]

17 minutes ago, ysolde said:

We are booked on Viva in November/December (Lisbon-San Juan).  It will be interesting to see how this ship handles a late season Mediterranean/North African cruise that then crosses the Atlantic and finally heads to a few Caribbean ports.

 

I am also curious how it will be on a series of probably chilly sea days when people will be more or less forced by the weather to gather indoors.  It will take a smart cruise director and staff to disperse the crowds and make the best possible use of the indoor space.  We shall see.

 

I was on the Viva TA from Lisbon to Miami in November/December and did not feel that the ship was overcrowded on sea days like it was during my Prima TA from Southampton to New York in 2022, mainly because the Viva crossing was in warmer climate. Also, I don't think we were at capacity on the Viva.

 

I am considering the Viva TA in April from San Juan to Lisbon if the prices come down a wee bit.

 

[UKstages]

37 minutes ago, PATRLR said:

Trying to make a serious point about an otherwise inane phrase gives that phrase too much credence.

 

oh, geez.

 

i was no longer commenting on the inane phrase. i was waxing poetic and making a pithy point about the concept of relatively new cruisers having no reference points. they can't say with certainty that they like the new buffet because they have no idea what the old buffet was like. rinse. lather and repeat throughout the ship. this point exists in a universe independent of the phrase  "contemporary cruiser."

[PATRLR]

1 hour ago, UKstages said:

 

oh, geez.

 

i was no longer commenting on the inane phrase. i was waxing poetic and making a pithy point about the concept of relatively new cruisers having no reference points. they can't say with certainty that they like the new buffet because they have no idea what the old buffet was like. rinse. lather and repeat throughout the ship. this point exists in a universe independent of the phrase  "contemporary cruiser."

I'm not sure why it's OK for you to make pithy comments, but not me.  Whatever.  You win.

Edited January 18 by PATRLR

[Laszlo]

On 1/17/2024 at 12:17 PM, RocketMan275 said:

NCL doesn't ignore 'experienced cruisers'.  Designing a cruise ship is far more complicated than 'experienced cruisers' imagine.   The fact that some 'experienced cruisers' have found the design of Prima not to their liking says more about those 'experienced cruisers' than it does about the professionals that designed Prima.

😅

 

I've seen plenty of stuff designed by "Professionals" to end up being a real cluster puck. I work with a lot of designers and engineers. Engineers in the automotive trade should be made to work as a mechanic for a year. 

[RocketMan275]

13 minutes ago, Laszlo said:

😅

 

I've seen plenty of stuff designed by "Professionals" to end up being a real cluster puck. I work with a lot of designers and engineers. Engineers in the automotive trade should be made to work as a mechanic for a year. 

Certainly agree.  My father worked in the oil fields as a roustabout.  His company insisted that all new engineers and geologists work as a part of a work gang for two years.  My dad was a 'gang pusher'.  He had several engineers work for him.

The fact that "plenty of stuff designed by "Professionals" to ends up being a real cluster puck" only reinforces the fact that designing a complex piece of equipment is not a job best left to amateurs.  Im fairly certain that 'experience cruisers' designing a cruise ship would produce a far bigger cluster puck than a group of professional maritime engineers.

Edited January 18 by RocketMan275

[UKstages]

well, once again, no cruise line is asking a bunch of experienced cruisers to design a cruise ship. what enlightened and progressive cruise lines do is solicit guest feedback to gain insight, test ideas and see if what they thought was so is in fact so. then their team of professionals will set about to design the ship, perhaps incorporating some of those ideas, perhaps not.

 

professional maritime engineers don't really enter into the equation. if you let "professional maritime engineers" design a ship, you'd get a ship that would probably run efficiently but would not get very good reviews for its restaurants, public spaces or amenities.

 

this idea that professionals somehow know better has limits. professionals know how to get the ship built; they don't necessarily know everything the ship should have. 

 

professional architects, chiefly men,  have designed broadway theatres for more than a hundred and twenty years.  and that's all well and good... until you have to go to the bathroom. the theatres were built with small bathrooms and the bathrooms for both men and women were the same size. anybody who has actually gone to the theatre in new york knows why that was a really bad idea, thought up, as it happens, by the professionals. it's only in the last twenty years or so that theatre owners responded to customer feedback and changed the design of modern theatres to include more restrooms and double or more the number for women.

 

those same theatres.. the ones built by architects, without input from actors or producers or directors or scenic designers or playwrights... they also have inadequate backstage facilities, dressing rooms, fly space and places to store scenery when not in use. that's what happens when professionals do something without asking for advice from the intended end user of their product.

 

there's a hotel in las vegas built by professionals that was designed in such a way that it created a "death ray" caused by the sun bouncing off its curved structure.  guests trying to sunbathe by the pool got severe burns, with the temperature hovering at a balmy 108 degrees, 20 to 25 degrees higher than the actual temperature. the same architect, a professional, made this mistake twice... he built another building in london with the very same defect.

 

that's what happens when professionals are allowed to do what they do in a vaccum.

 

[SeaShark]

11 minutes ago, UKstages said:

well, once again, no cruise line is asking a bunch of experienced cruisers to design a cruise ship. what enlightened and progressive cruise lines do is solicit guest feedback to gain insight, test ideas and see if what they thought was so is in fact so. then their team of professionals will set about to design the ship, perhaps incorporating some of those ideas, perhaps not.

 

professional maritime engineers don't really enter into the equation. if you let "professional maritime engineers" design a ship, you'd get a ship that would probably run efficiently but would not get very good reviews for its restaurants, public spaces or amenities.

 

this idea that professionals somehow know better has limits. professionals know how to get the ship built; they don't necessarily know everything the ship should have. 

 

professional architects, chiefly men,  have designed broadway theatres for more than a hundred and twenty years.  and that's all well and good... until you have to go to the bathroom. the theatres were built with small bathrooms and the bathrooms for both men and women were the same size. anybody who has actually gone to the theatre in new york knows why that was a really bad idea, thought up, as it happens, by the professionals. it's only in the last twenty years or so that theatre owners responded to customer feedback and changed the design of modern theatres to include more restrooms and double or more the number for women.

 

those same theatres.. the ones built by architects, without input from actors or producers or directors or scenic designers or playwrights... they also have inadequate backstage facilities, dressing rooms, fly space and places to store scenery when not in use. that's what happens when professionals do something without asking for advice from the intended end user of their product.

 

there's a hotel in las vegas built by professionals that was designed in such a way that it created a "death ray" caused by the sun bouncing off its curved structure.  guests trying to sunbathe by the pool got severe burns, with the temperature hovering at a balmy 108 degrees, 20 to 25 degrees higher than the actual temperature. the same architect, a professional, made this mistake twice... he built another building in london with the very same defect.

 

that's what happens when professionals are allowed to do what they do in a vaccum.

 

 

Problem is that your position depends on there being no intersection in the Venn Diagram of "experienced cruisers" and "marine architects". Which is, IMHO, a shaky position that is likely to be totally false. How can you even allege that the design occurs in a vaccum?

[RocketMan275]

30 minutes ago, UKstages said:

well, once again, no cruise line is asking a bunch of experienced cruisers to design a cruise ship. what enlightened and progressive cruise lines do is solicit guest feedback to gain insight, test ideas and see if what they thought was so is in fact so. then their team of professionals will set about to design the ship, perhaps incorporating some of those ideas, perhaps not.

 

Yet we have a thread entitled

 

Experienced cruisers to design next NCL Ship"

 

where the premise is "experienced cruisers" can do a better job of designing a cruise ship.  The point is those "experienced cruisers" have not the slightest idea of the trade-offs involved in designing a ship.  It's easy to say that something was a dumb idea when in fact there were reasons that it had to be done that way.

 

Edited January 18 by RocketMan275

[Laszlo]

1 hour ago, RocketMan275 said:

Certainly agree.  My father worked in the oil fields as a roustabout.  His company insisted that all new engineers and geologists work as a part of a work gang for two years.  My dad was a 'gang pusher'.  He had several engineers work for him.

The fact that "plenty of stuff designed by "Professionals" to ends up being a real cluster puck" only reinforces the fact that designing a complex piece of equipment is not a job best left to amateurs.  Im fairly certain that 'experience cruisers' designing a cruise ship would produce a far bigger cluster puck than a group of professional maritime engineers.

 

Engineers have a tendency to over engineer even the simplest thing. I buddy of mine is a big wig designer / mechanic for Ford. He's had to redesign a number of things, including an oil filter that fit great in the engine department but was dam near impossible to get at from under the car

[RocketMan275]

7 minutes ago, Laszlo said:

 

Engineers have a tendency to over engineer even the simplest thing. I buddy of mine is a big wig designer / mechanic for Ford. He's had to redesign a number of things, including an oil filter that fit great in the engine department but was dam near impossible to get at from under the car

Not always the engineers fault.  In the 1970s, the Dodge Challenger had a 427 cubic inch option  where the engine had to be removed to access the spark plugs.  Some customers wanted the big block engine and that was the only way it could be done.  In reality, the engineers were solving a problem, how to fit that huge engine in that small vehicle.  A block and tackle was the only solution. 

Edited January 18 by RocketMan275

[graphicguy]

2 hours ago, Laszlo said:

😅

 

I've seen plenty of stuff designed by "Professionals" to end up being a real cluster puck. I work with a lot of designers and engineers. Engineers in the automotive trade should be made to work as a mechanic for a year. 

From your lips (fingers?) to God's ears!  

 

Before retiring, I can still clearly remember being in design meetings with EEs and accountants in the same room.  It's a wonder we didn't produce a PCB made of Kleenex and no testing that cost more than 98¢.  

 

We had a symposium once of our top 6 customers.  They all gave us their input.  At the end, we considered maybe 1/10th of their suggestions viable.  And only 1/10th of that number something we could actually do in reality.

 

Same with us trying to give design "advice" for something as complex as a cruise ship.

Edited January 18 by graphicguy

[Laszlo]

1 hour ago, RocketMan275 said:

Not always the engineers fault.  In the 1970s, the Dodge Challenger had a 427 cubic inch option  where the engine had to be removed to access the spark plugs.  Some customers wanted the big block engine and that was the only way it could be done.  In reality, the engineers were solving a problem, how to fit that huge engine in that small vehicle.  A block and tackle was the only solution. 

I had a Triumph TR-8. The engine compartment was so tight the battery was in the trunk Lol