Panorama Refund - Possibly internal fraud?

[TravelE]

13 hours ago, Kevin135i said:

Update:

Finally got the cheque reissued and deposited without any issues.

So glad this is resolved!

With that being said, we do plan to keep crusing with Carnival in the future despite this negative experience.

How did you end up getting it resolved?

 

[StephPS79]

Yes, I am so curious what explanation Carnival provided for this.  Please let us know how you got this resolved.

[Kevin135i]

7 hours ago, TravelE said:

How did you end up getting it resolved?

 

We pretty much had to bombard them with phone calls and emails. The explanation they gave was definitely still lackluster. They claimed that they are still looking into how it happened, however they resent a new cheque to us. They said until further investigations, they will not be refunding us the bounced cheque fee as it's not part of their policy. (Which I think is absurd and BS since this was 100% fault on their end). At the ends we have decided to cut our loss in terms of time and call it a win now that we have the original refund.

 

A part of me still believe there were definitely some funny business going on internally and to avoid negative feedback or media catching wind of it, they are playing dumb but ultimately corrected the issue. I understand that disclosing that they had internal fraud from the inside would definitely not be something they want to leak out. How can they NOT know who requested the address change and etc without it going through an approval process and having their payable accounting department approve a huge cheque without noticing?

It just doesn't add up for me. 

 

Either way, I'm glad I can finally move on from this and plan my next cruise. Hopefully a nice Southern Caribbean one so I can destress LOL

[buckeyefrank]

I can tell you exactly what happened.  Both Carnival and you were scammed.  A scammer intercepted the email from Carnival, most likely from a virus on your phone or personal computer that was previously placed.  When you received the email from Carnival, the scammer was able to see the email and he had all the info he needed.  He then called Carnival and pretended to be you.  He had your booking # and name so Carnival CS wouldn't have thought anything was amiss.  He read from the letter that you would be receiving a refund, so he told the Carnival rep to send the check to a different address, where he could access it.  This is a type of scam called spear phishing.  Carnival was a victim of this scam as well, but they are not really to blame since the scammer had your info.

[mz-s]

55 minutes ago, buckeyefrank said:

I can tell you exactly what happened.  Both Carnival and you were scammed.  A scammer intercepted the email from Carnival, most likely from a virus on your phone or personal computer that was previously placed.  When you received the email from Carnival, the scammer was able to see the email and he had all the info he needed.  He then called Carnival and pretended to be you.  He had your booking # and name so Carnival CS wouldn't have thought anything was amiss.  He read from the letter that you would be receiving a refund, so he told the Carnival rep to send the check to a different address, where he could access it.  This is a type of scam called spear phishing.  Carnival was a victim of this scam as well, but they are not really to blame since the scammer had your info.

 

I feel like we would have more examples of this if there was someone internal stealing the checks (they wouldn't steal just one) so this sort of makes sense.

[nydney1]

Thanks for the update 

[buckeyefrank]

15 minutes ago, mz-s said:

 

I feel like we would have more examples of this if there was someone internal stealing the checks (they wouldn't steal just one) so this sort of makes sense.

They're doing this exact scam to businesses by sending letters saying their address has changed.  They get the check and they change the payer, hoping that the positive pay system doesn't have name matching.

[TRLD]

On 2/19/2024 at 11:51 AM, Kevin135i said:

This refund is for the flights. It was paid via Westjet and since Westjet isn't affiliated with Carnival, they will send us a cheque to cover the expense loss, which is where we provided the supporting documents of flights/bookings/names and etc. 

The weirdest part is that, they are extremely cooperative and helpful in terms of agreeing to pay for our flights reimbursement and such. It wasn't an argument at all, hence why we're taken back at how questionable the entire cheque process and the random "request for change of address" came about. It's almost like someone was like "Oh your claim is legitimate so we will go ahead and approve that and send the cheque... to ourselves MUHAHAHAH"

 

Are you sure you are actually communicating with Carnival and not a scammer using a look alike address. There have been numerous reports of people trying to change flights or get refunds where they end up connecting to scammers with similar addresses who then collect the information then redirecting the refund payments. Usually they want you to keep using the same method of contact to keep the scam going.

[notscb]

Glad OP figured this one out. Corporate bureaucracy is the worst and I can attest to the fact that at the customer service level, there often isn't a way to directly talk to someone in finance/accounting. At a job I worked, to get to that department I had to put an email in the customers chart and cross my fingers for a response.

 

Obligatory leaving helpful resources to others who might need to find a way to resolve their issues with Carnival (and other cruise lines):

-Elliott.org company contacts list- send a brief email with bullet point details (again, be brief, don't be emotional and don't over-explain) and exact resolution to one contact at a time. Wait one week between.

-Consumer Rescue has a "help" feature where their consumer advocates will reach out to these companies to try to resolve problems.

Edited April 14 by notscb
added hyperlinks

[jimbo5544]

Amazing all the experts we have here……. 😎

[Kevin135i]

On 4/13/2024 at 7:25 PM, TRLD said:

Are you sure you are actually communicating with Carnival and not a scammer using a look alike address. There have been numerous reports of people trying to change flights or get refunds where they end up connecting to scammers with similar addresses who then collect the information then redirecting the refund payments. Usually they want you to keep using the same method of contact to keep the scam going.

Like I've mentioned before, we've explored this possibility and confirmed that we had the correct email addresses. We were on the phone directly with Carnival and while speaking with an agent, they have confirmed the responding emails between us. So unless they hacked our multiple phone lines and email address and somehow intercepted the official phone number of Carnival, meanwhile having full live access to our email and was able to correspond with us and imposed as Carnival themselves... then yeah it could most definitely be a possibility. The fact that Carnival themselves got to the bottom of it and reissued the cheque that has now been successfully deposited, just like how our other companions whom successfully got their refunds (We had multiple families part take in this vacation plan and all paid separately). It's safe to say, the situation is resolved. I mean, if my family just happened to be the unlucky one who been communicating with scammers this entire time... I must say they are very nice scammers, since they felt enough guilt and return thousands of dollars to their victims. It's a win win I guess?

[Jeafl]

On 2/19/2024 at 3:56 PM, VentureMan_2000 said:

Just because you deal with them in court does not mean you cannot still enjoy their cruises.

I sued Chevrolet for a Lemmon, and still continue to buy Chevy.  I wouldn't had to if the Dealership did its job.  Same with Carnival... just because of one bad actor within Carnival should not mean dropping Carnival altogether.

I know of someone banned for life just for disputing a charge on their credit card.  I would be careful of taking them to court if you want to sail on them again.

 

[buckeyefrank]

23 hours ago, Kevin135i said:

Like I've mentioned before, we've explored this possibility and confirmed that we had the correct email addresses. We were on the phone directly with Carnival and while speaking with an agent, they have confirmed the responding emails between us. So unless they hacked our multiple phone lines and email address and somehow intercepted the official phone number of Carnival, meanwhile having full live access to our email and was able to correspond with us and imposed as Carnival themselves... then yeah it could most definitely be a possibility. The fact that Carnival themselves got to the bottom of it and reissued the cheque that has now been successfully deposited, just like how our other companions whom successfully got their refunds (We had multiple families part take in this vacation plan and all paid separately). It's safe to say, the situation is resolved. I mean, if my family just happened to be the unlucky one who been communicating with scammers this entire time... I must say they are very nice scammers, since they felt enough guilt and return thousands of dollars to their victims. It's a win win I guess?

You were not communicating to scammers... you were talking to Carnival the whole time.  There is likely a virus on your computer or phone that allowed a scammer to obtain your booking # and name.  That would be enough to allow them to call Carnival and change the address that the check was being mailed to.  The original check was most likely not deposited before Carnival was able to place a stop payment on it.  They will generally wipe out the name from the check and enter a new name (probably an unknowing mule) who can deposit it into their account and then forward those funds to the scammer.  If the check would have already been deposited, it would have taken a considerably longer amount of time to fix.

[Kevin135i]

4 hours ago, buckeyefrank said:

You were not communicating to scammers... you were talking to Carnival the whole time.  There is likely a virus on your computer or phone that allowed a scammer to obtain your booking # and name.  That would be enough to allow them to call Carnival and change the address that the check was being mailed to.  The original check was most likely not deposited before Carnival was able to place a stop payment on it.  They will generally wipe out the name from the check and enter a new name (probably an unknowing mule) who can deposit it into their account and then forward those funds to the scammer.  If the check would have already been deposited, it would have taken a considerably longer amount of time to fix.

What I don't understand is, when I inquire about who made the request and who approved it. Carnival themselves says it won't show on their system and they can't tell which agent made the changes. So even if a scammer imposed as me to make changes with my name and booking number, then wouldn't Carnival be like "Oh you called and made that request... didn't you?" but on their system they claimed that it's very odd and that it wouldn't show the details on their end as well. So are you saying Carnival also got a virus? Like I get what you're trying to say but the whole ordeal comes up more as a shady agent versus a scammer pretending to be me.

[Babyfin]

As someone who use to work as a CSR for Carnival, We all do not actually work for Carnival. We work for ourselves from home. Arise is the company that out sources the calls for Carnival to us. They also do Disney, Comcast, Turbo Tax, etc. I am getting off track but there is a point to all this. When ever we get a call we have to document everything that is said into the booking notes. The notes will pop up when we get a call and our CSR # is automatically generated into that document. It can not be erased. When we are type in a booking# all the info will pop up as well as that note spot. Everything from the first call on that booking to the last will be documented. For example. You can call and give me a booking # from 2004 and I can tell you everything that was talked about in that phone call and what the issue was. So for Carnival to tell you they can't find that information means 1 of 2 things. 1 that who ever took the initial call did not document what was going on and after the call changed the address them selves. If that's the case they would be able to see there was no info documented and which agent did it. Or 2. That the person answering the phones had muli booking documents opened from each call they took and did not finish them out like they where suppose to and after 6 minutes of that call being ended what ever they where typing in the current booking got auto saved into the wrong booking#.

 

Edited April 21 by Babyfin
Miss spelling

[Kevin135i]

28 minutes ago, Babyfin said:

As someone who use to work as a CSR for Carnival, We all do not actually work for Carnival. We work for ourselves from home. Arise is the company that out sources the calls for Carnival to us. They also do Disney, Comcast, Turbo Tax, etc. I am getting off track but there is a point to all this. When ever we get a call we have to document everything that is said into the booking notes. The notes will pop up when we get a call and our CSR # is automatically generated into that document. It can not be erased. When we are type in a booking# all the info will pop up as well as that note spot. Everything from the first call on that booking to the last will be documented. For example. You can call and give me a booking # from 2004 and I can tell you everything that was talked about in that phone call and what the issue was. So for Carnival to tell you they can't find that information means 1 of 2 things. 1 that who ever took the initial call did not document what was going on and after the call changed the address them selves. If that's the case they would be able to see there was no info documented and which agent did it. Or 2. That the person answering the phones had muli booking documents opened from each call they took and did not finish them out like they where suppose to and after 6 minutes of that call being ended what ever they where typing in the current booking got auto saved into the wrong booking#.

 

Thank you very much for the insight! Good to know how it actually works!