Really struggling with NCL ethics and whether I should switch cruise lines

[DCGuy64]

20 minutes ago, kitkat343 said:

If you google the website cruise timetables you can see how crowded ports you are scheduled to visit will be.  The site helpfully lists all of the ships scheduled to dock each day.  The cruise lines also have access to the official port schedules, so they are unlikely to use that site but its easier for passengers to access since we don't need to find each individual port's official schedule.

Thanks! I've used that site before, but it isn't always up to date. Sometimes I go directly to the individual ports' websites, but even those aren't always current. Last year, a friend of mine was on the Breakaway in July, and when they got to Santorini, it was a nightmare with the long lines. There were 6 ships there IIRC. We took the same cruise in November, and with only 1 other large ship there (3 ships in total, one was small), it was the same thing! Long lines for hours. You'd think with fewer ships, the lines would be shorter, but nope.

[Firstin87]

@DorothyB, I've seen your posts (and that of a couple other of your fellow passengers) on the Roll Call for the Getaway's Oct. 20, which we are on.  No excursions have been listed for your sialing for some time and that is very odd and I've wondered if there is something strange going on with your sailing.  Getting such a variety of answers when you've called NCL's Customer Service line is a definite problem - either that staff is not told the truth, or they are making up an excuse when on the phone with you, or something else - lack of consistency is a problem.

 

We have cruised NCL ~20 times, most of them in the last 2.5 yrs. (DH retired 2.5 yrs. ago), mostly in suites, and are Diamond.  We, too, have been unhappy with NCL changing the itinerary just after final payment is made.  We can certainly understand when changes are made for weather, maintenance, or local issues (i.e., French port being skipped due to strikes), but when we have received these notices the reason is the phony "for environmental reasons".  Those environmental reasons are known well before passengers are notified.  NCL knows it and we know they know it.  The only reason to delay notifying passengers is to eliminate passengers having the opportunity to cancel their cruise with no penalty.  It's one of our biggest gripes with NCL and has also caused us to begin cruising other lines, despite being Diamond on NCL and loving their suites.  You are not alone with this complaint and their have been a number of threads and posts about this here on CC for some time.

 

As we are learning about other cruise lines, here is some info about little differences that you might find helpful.

 

Royal - no ability to do laundry on your own; irons not available to use in your room (they claim 'safety issue", but other cruise lines at least have the ability to have an iron brought to your room for you to us and return); no free internet minutes.

 

Princess - they sell a Princess Plus and Princess Permiere add on packages that cover gratuities, casual dining, specialty dining, etc. that you can compare and see if either one is an addition that you'd like; they have self-serve laundry rooms onboard for a 'minimal charge' (their words, don't know the price).

 

I agree with you that it is time consuming and can be frustrating to research and compare different cruise lines.  It's so easy to just keep booking NCL when you know what you're getting, how to navigate their website, etc.  We are trying Royal for the first time in a couple weeks for a 7 day cruise and are looking forward to it.  We've got some other NCL trips booked since we have some CruiseNext certs to use, and have also got some Princess cruises booked, so expanding our horizons.

 

 

[Panhandle Couple]

On 7/31/2024 at 8:16 AM, DorothyB said:

My history:  I sailed on Carnival 3 times before my first NCL cruise.  I did do one Carnival cruise after 2 NCL cruises because I was cruising with friends.  I am now Platinum with NCL.  I have sailed NCL 8 times with three of those in suites (haven on the two vessels that had a haven).  I currently have three more cruises booked in the next 7 months - two in solo balconies and one in a Prima haven suite.

 

So . . . I have been reading about all of the itinerary changes, but since being loyal is one of my big strengths and weaknesses, I wasn't too concerned.  However . . . then comes my next cruise.

 

I am booked on the Getaway October 27th sailing.  We have been wondering why NO excursions for a LONG time - and have been given many different stories ranging from one person saying itinerary not final; multiple people saying they were still negotiating with vendors; multiple people saying that the excursions were all sold out; multiple people saying that it was an issue with uploading them.

 

For most cabins, the penalty for canceling goes up to 50% starting 90 days out.  So 89 days out, after regular cabins have a 50% penalty and suites, etc have 75% penalty, they send out the email saying that the itinerary has changed. 

 

Honestly, I'm not really that concerned with the changes to the port (other than wishing I hadn't spent an hour booking excursions with outside companies that I now have to cancel or change).  I would have liked to see Harvest Caye, but not that big of a deal.

 

What I am struggling a LOT with is that they lied to us and are acting unethically to make more money.  I am not sure if I should just recognize that all companies are just out to make profit even if it means lying to us . . . 

 

But I think I'm ready to seriously consider changing cruise lines.  I asked last week and was told that I could wear jeans to dinner every day on Carnival, Royal Caribbean, Princess and MSC - is this true??  and is MSC the only one of those that will match lattitudes level?  All of those sail from the nearest port.  How do prices compare?

 

Am I crazy to expect a company to treat me ethically??

Princess added a new ship to their fleet this year, the Sun Princess.

It's recreation area on deck 19 was not finished at first sailing.

Now 5 or 6 months later, it is still not finished, and Princess has announced that they do know when, if at all it will be finished.

People and families have been taking cruises based on the promotion of that area, only to find it a construction zone.

Princess has not provided any OBC or future cruise credit for any of these sailings. I'm not certain if they have changed their promotions on the Sun.

 

Check it out on the Princess board, where people seem nonchalant about it compared to NCL board.

 

A missed port can happen for numerous reasons, an incomplete ship months later is a different matter.

[kitkat343]

1 hour ago, Panhandle Couple said:

Princess added a new ship to their fleet this year, the Sun Princess.

It's recreation area on deck 19 was not finished at first sailing.

Now 5 or 6 months later, it is still not finished, and Princess has announced that they do know when, if at all it will be finished.

People and families have been taking cruises based on the promotion of that area, only to find it a construction zone.

Princess has not provided any OBC or future cruise credit for any of these sailings. I'm not certain if they have changed their promotions on the Sun.

 

Check it out on the Princess board, where people seem nonchalant about it compared to NCL board.

 

A missed port can happen for numerous reasons, an incomplete ship months later is a different matter.

The broken items are :

 

The RollGlider was to have been a first of its kind glider-style zipline experience, while the Coastal Climb included an open-air 360-degree observation deck.  Also broken is the ropes course.

 

Princess has announced that none of these amenities will open. https://www.travelgossip.co.uk/latestnews/key-top-deck-attractions-on-sun-princess-to-remain-permanently-closed/#:~:text=Princess Cruises has confirmed that,area%2C will remain permanently closed..  

 

Thankfully, the splash zone is open, which as a parent would have been my priority out of all of the Park 19 amenities.  

 

I'm sailing a different Princess ship but wouldn't have felt too upset if I was on the Sun.  I book primarily for itinerary, but travelers who book primarily for the ship might be more upset.    

 

[Panhandle Couple]

4 minutes ago, kitkat343 said:

The broken items are :

 

The RollGlider was to have been a first of its kind glider-style zipline experience, while the Coastal Climb included an open-air 360-degree observation deck.  Also broken is the ropes course.

 

Princess has announced that none of these amenities will open. https://www.travelgossip.co.uk/latestnews/key-top-deck-attractions-on-sun-princess-to-remain-permanently-closed/#:~:text=Princess Cruises has confirmed that,area%2C will remain permanently closed..  

 

Thankfully, the splash zone is open, which as a parent would have been my priority out of all of the Park 19 amenities.  

 

I'm sailing a different Princess ship but wouldn't have felt too upset if I was on the Sun.  I book primarily for itinerary, but travelers who book primarily for the ship might be more upset.    

 

It's not whether you will be happy with "just a pool", I am pointing out that Princess has an ethics question on advertising and selling an amenity on a portion of their ship that was not ready, and seemingly will never be completed.

As a comparison, NCL (and other cruise lines) seems to be able to install a ropes course and rock climbing wall without issues. 

The Princess Sun is also a new class of ship, and that leaves the question open for what the next 2 ships will have, or not have installed when completed.  I assume Princess is marketing them as having all amenities.

 

[rj59]

After 80 cruises, I learned that it's not worth being exclusively loyal to any line, especially if pursuing meager loyalty benefits or higher levels. I'm a frugal solo passenger, so they are already usually treating me worse by charging me double for a cabin, and over time I've seen cutbacks, added fees, degradations of service, and other things that are more designed to reduce their Covid debt and prop up their stock price instead of to improve the experience for me. The worst with NCL was last year, when they wouldn't even let people into their rooms until 5 pm, and on no day of the cruise was my room cleaned before then. Then it happened to be when they were the only line bringing back in-person muster, which was just completely unacceptable and a thoroughly miserable experience. I was also ripped off by a deceitful person selling Cruise Next deposits, making a false statement to get me to buy $1000, instead of the $250 I asked for. And then there was the supreme irritation and cheapness of not giving me a full can of Coke Zero, and only the remnants of a flat can or half a new one. There's also the abhorrent time when at the start of Covid their salespeople were instructed to tell prospective cruisers that they were safe to cruise, because Covid can't survive in the warm climates they sail to (just before the Diamond Princess and other death cruises). 

 

Unfortunately, every line has such things that will irritated and infuriate you--sometimes it's circumstances, sometimes it's other passengers, sometimes it's a breakdown in customer service. I've had meltdowns and "I'm never sailing with them again" moments on every line, but I usually come back and give them another chance, especially if I find a good bargain (as NCL used to do regularly, with great last-minute fares). The boards on here are full of people swearing off lines they've been loyal to, often for ridiculous reasons, like Princess no longer leaving pillow chocolates. While it can be satisfying to vent on here, if you really love cruising, I wouldn't close off certain options, even on NCL, since I've had some amazing experiences in it, great shows, I love Oceanwalk promenades and freestyle dining and a sort-of free included drinks package and beautiful hull designs and ships and the only really good brew pub I've seen at sea, and the variety and quality of the Indian section of their buffets. So, despite the above NCL harangue, I still just booked a last-minute Encore trip to Alaska this weekend :). 

[luv2kroooz]

8 hours ago, Panhandle Couple said:

It's not whether you will be happy with "just a pool", I am pointing out that Princess has an ethics question on advertising and selling an amenity on a portion of their ship that was not ready, and seemingly will never be completed.

As a comparison, NCL (and other cruise lines) seems to be able to install a ropes course and rock climbing wall without issues. 

The Princess Sun is also a new class of ship, and that leaves the question open for what the next 2 ships will have, or not have installed when completed.  I assume Princess is marketing them as having all amenities.

 

Are you justifying NCL bad behavior by pointing to Princess bad behavior?

Edited August 3 by luv2kroooz

[Panhandle Couple]

1 hour ago, luv2kroooz said:

Are you justifying NCL bad behavior by pointing to Princess bad behavior?

That is for you to decide.

[luv2kroooz]

21 minutes ago, Panhandle Couple said:

That is for you to decide.

Of course it is. Thank you. Never justify NCL bad behavior by pointing to Princess bad behavior. It can discredit and weaken your positions posted on here. And we will just leave it at that very concise, short and sweet for others to decide, too. All the best.

Edited August 3 by luv2kroooz

[Panhandle Couple]

3 minutes ago, luv2kroooz said:

Of course it is. Thank you. Never justify NCL bad behavior by pointing to Princess bad behavior. It can discredit your positions posted on here. And we will just leave it at that for others to decide, too. All the best.

Never lecture other posters, that could discredit your other positions posted here.

 

[schmoopie17]

With all of the negative NCL backwash on this thread (and others), I assume we can look forward to not waiting in line for drinks, having a zillion open pool loungers and having empty elevators on our upcoming NCL cruises.

 

Cool!

[luv2kroooz]

2 hours ago, schmoopie17 said:

With all of the negative NCL backwash on this thread (and others), I assume we can look forward to not waiting in line for drinks, having a zillion open pool loungers and having empty elevators on our upcoming NCL cruises.

 

Cool!

Not so quick with that theory. Think that through. You are incorrectly assuming that all cruisers are following NCLs antics prior to their cruise. Many cruisers, especially 1st timers, may be wholly uninformed.

 

Plus, when demand decreases, NCL could just reduce staff, so the lines you reportedly have to wait in would still exist.

Edited August 3 by luv2kroooz

[PartyPlannerLady]

35 minutes ago, luv2kroooz said:

Not so quick with that theory. Think that through. You are incorrectly assuming that all cruisers are following NCLs antics prior to their cruise. Many cruisers, especially 1st timers, may be wholly uninformed.

 

Plus, when demand decreases, NCL could just reduce staff, so the lines you reportedly have to wait in would still exist.

 

 

Or perhaps they are not wholly gullible.

[luv2kroooz]

Just now, PartyPlannerLady said:

 

 

Or perhaps they are not wholly gullible.

Of course....in which case, demand is unaffected and the long lines and chair hogging reported a few posts above will crack on.

[david_sobe]

When I read the title of this thread about ethics I really was interested in hearing about the OP's experience.  You have no idea how disappointed I was to learn the "ethics" part was pretty much a conspiracy theory suggesting that NCL announced an itinerary with the secret plot to not tell anyone they would change itineraries 89 days out.  Am I correct in this?  I just woke up from a nap and my energy drink has not kicked in yet.

Is this not the cruising norm on every cruise line?  Ports get dropped and added all the time.   This is a great advertisement for NCL's "cancel for any reason" insurance.  This fits perfectly.  Imagine if the itinerary changed only 2 days before the cruise and you hated the change. You could call NCL and cancel the cruise and get almost full cruise credit to book another cruise that you liked.

If you know me, I am the last one to defend NCL if there is something shady.  But to support this claim in a lapse of ethics is to go down a rabbit hole of conspiracy theories.   I read too many cruise reviews that people miss Great Stirrup Cay because of weather ands safety and people rant it was done on purpose so people spend more money on the ship.

I am not buying it.    If I dont have the story correct, I am sorry it would not be the first time at misunderstanding someone's post. 

[complawyer]

i would have absolutely no problem missing grand stirrup caye. not only would i rather stay on board, id rather have a root canal. been there, done that, MEH!

[luv2kroooz]

5 hours ago, david_sobe said:

Am I correct in this?  I just woke up from a nap and my energy drink has not kicked in yet.

Is this not the cruising norm on every cruise line?  Ports get dropped and added all the time.

No and no.

This thread is focusing in a very particular way about port changes which seem to be for matters of corporate convenience and routinely and repeatedly announced a day or two after final payment.....far different from necessary, understandable changes for weather, passenger safety, or medical emergencies.

 

Your questions are too general. I would reread the thread to gain a better understanding of the deeply routed problems that ard being discussed. All the best.

Edited August 3 by luv2kroooz

[david_sobe]

21 minutes ago, luv2kroooz said:

No and no.

This thread is focusing in a very particular way about port changes which seem to be for matters of corporate convenience and routinely and repeatedly announced a day or two after final payment.....far different from necessary, understandable changes for weather, passenger safety, or medical emergencies.

 

Your questions are too general. I would reread the thread to gain a better understanding of the deeply routed problems that ard being discussed. All the best.

What you say does not make sense.  The ship has thousands of passengers.  Some were paid in full months before any port changes.  But they would be in the same situation as the OP which was days after final payment.  You and the OP suggest that NCL purposely conspired to lure passengers to a specific port to secretly remove from the itinerary once final payment was made?  One major issue missing from the discussion is why NCL changed or removed the port.  I have seen ships ditch ports because the port mistakenly booked too many ships which is no fault of the cruise line.  There could be a mechanical issue with the ship and to shorten the trip ports are removed.  This happens every day and with every cruise line.  I am totally sympathetic if someone's dream port is removed.  But please provide your motive.  You expressed an allegation but don't supply a motive why NCL would do this.  What is your theory or guess?  The reasons ports are removed would be too long to list.  I think its fairly known that cruise contracts allow port changes.  They only guarantee nights or days of the cruise.  If it is shortened they will pro-rate and refund the days missed.  But there is clearly a solution to this issue if you book a cruise and refuse to accept port changes (if they happen).  Buy NCL "Cancel for any reason" insurance.  You can cancel the cruise and get future credit on a future cruise that goes to the port of your dreams.   The OP never provides information with what the cruise line told her in the original post.  The OP alleges the change of port was to make more money.   How is that so? 

[DorothyB]

33 minutes ago, david_sobe said:

  The OP never provides information with what the cruise line told her in the original post.  The OP alleges the change of port was to make more money.   How is that so? 

 

The reason for the changes was "we continue to optimize itineraries for enhanced port and shore excursion availability, as well as fuel efficiency, as a part of our commitment to the environment and sustainability efforts"

 

As I have stated several times that my issue isn't really with the order of the ports changing (Costa Maya and Cozumel).  I'm a bit disappointed about missing Harvest Caye, but that is NOT the biggest issue.

Several people have posted here and other places that they have tried to find out why our cruise had ZERO shore excursions so if having "shore excursion availability" was the issue, . . . Well . . . I booked this cruise on MARCH 3rd so it was well over FOUR MONTHS that we were all looking for our shore excursions.  I just find it suspicious that it took them FOUR MONTHS to figure out and they figured it out the day that the cancellation penalty increased and were able to start making shore excursions available the very next day even though we had been told the day before that they were still having issues uploading the excursions.

[luv2kroooz]

38 minutes ago, david_sobe said:

You and the OP suggest that NCL purposely conspired to lure passengers to a specific port to secretly remove from the itinerary once final payment was made?  One major issue missing from the discussion is why NCL changed or removed the port.

I can only speak to my experience when we had 4 port changes immediately after final payment. I don't believe they happened randomly on the same day, and NCLs reasoning was cryptic citing "operational considerations and itinerary optimization". In my world, that is smoke in mirrors. I don't need to spend extra on cancel for any reason insurance. I have voted with my wallet and I appreciate the suggestion.

[luv2kroooz]

42 minutes ago, david_sobe said:

think its fairly known that cruise contracts allow port changes. 

....for unforeseen things such as medical emergencies, civil unrest, and hurricanes. The contract was not intended to allow cruise lines to make haphazard, reckless changes after final payment for corporate convenience. No matter how many times you post that, it will not be true. It will take a group of disgruntled passengers to challenge it, but the courts would interpret the contract.

[Firstin87]

I think we can all agree that not having shore excursions posted for booking four months before a cruise is not the norm.  Perfectly logical to wonder if something was off about their Oct. sailing and that is what caused @DorothyB and others on her sailing to look into what might be going on.  Personally, I thought maybe their sailing would be cancelled and the ship had been booked by a private group.  I'm glad that was not the case for those passengers.

 

I have no experience with NCL's travel insurance, but if it does allow cancellations for any reason, that is a nice feature.  For those who are getting frustrated with NCL's changing of ports post-final payment, they should not have to incur the added expense of buying NCL's  travel insurance policies so they can cancel if NCL does make a port change that causes them to want to cancel the trip entirely.  NCL wins financially either way, don't they?

 

On a Panama Canal cruise we took in Feb. of 2023, Nicaragua was listed as a port of call and was not cancelled by NCL until the cruise was embarking or just after departure (I don't remember which).  Nicaragua had not (and I believe has still not) opened their port to cruise ships since the pandemic and NCL and those of us who looked into the port knew it well in advance of departure.  We asked an officer (don't remember which one) onboard and were told that they kept it on the itinerary in case Nicaragua opened up before our listed arrival date.  That makes absolutely no sense.  If and when that country does return to hosting cruise ships, they will no do so on a few days notice, but will announce it weeks, of not months, in advance so cruise lines can prepare their itineraries, etc.  While Nicaragua was not a 'key' port on that trip for us or anyone we spoke to onboard, their continuing to leave a known skipped port on the itinerary aligns with their more-often-than-makes-sense times of changing ports post-final payment.  It's a planning problem.  It's a communication problem.

 

 

Edited August 4 by Firstin87

[ontheweb]

11 hours ago, Firstin87 said:

I think we can all agree that not having shore excursions posted for booking four months before a cruise is not the norm.  Perfectly logical to wonder if something was off about their Oct. sailing and that is what caused @DorothyB and others on her sailing to look into what might be going on.  Personally, I thought maybe their sailing would be cancelled and the ship had been booked by a private group.  I'm glad that was not the case for those passengers.

 

I have no experience with NCL's travel insurance, but if it does allow cancellations for any reason, that is a nice feature.  For those who are getting frustrated with NCL's changing of ports post-final payment, they should not have to incur the added expense of buying NCL's  travel insurance policies so they can cancel if NCL does make a port change that causes them to want to cancel the trip entirely.  NCL wins financially either way, don't they?

 

On a Panama Canal cruise we took in Feb. of 2023, Nicaragua was listed as a port of call and was not cancelled by NCL until the cruise was embarking or just after departure (I don't remember which).  Nicaragua had not (and I believe has still not) opened their port to cruise ships since the pandemic and NCL and those of us who looked into the port knew it well in advance of departure.  We asked an officer (don't remember which one) onboard and were told that they kept it on the itinerary in case Nicaragua opened up before our listed arrival date.  That makes absolutely no sense.  If and when that country does return to hosting cruise ships, they will no do so on a few days notice, but will announce it weeks, of not months, in advance so cruise lines can prepare their itineraries, etc.  While Nicaragua was not a 'key' port on that trip for us or anyone we spoke to onboard, their continuing to leave a known skipped port on the itinerary aligns with their more-often-than-makes-sense times of changing ports post-final payment.  It's a planning problem.  It's a communication problem.

 

 

In a similar vein to your Nicaragua example, we were on the Prima last summer. It never went to Isafjordur due to a combination of the dock was not ready and the Prima's lifeboats were not certified to use as tenders. And each and every week they would keep it listed and had excursions available on the website until cancelled very near to the cruise date.

[PugM0m]

Not to down play the OPs issue, but it can always be worse. I just read yesterday, Carnival has two cruises that they changed due to the storm right now, the cruise from last week was changed from 4 to 3 nights and they contacted the next set of passengers on Friday, to tell them that instead of embarkation on Monday 8/5 they were now expected to embark today! So they gave their guest a 2 day notice to arrange to get to the port a full 24 hours earlier. 

[Firstin87]

6 hours ago, ontheweb said:

In a similar vein to your Nicaragua example, we were on the Prima last summer. It never went to Isafjordur due to a combination of the dock was not ready and the Prima's lifeboats were not certified to use as tenders. And each and every week they would keep it listed and had excursions available on the website until cancelled very near to the cruise date.

NCL sold shorex for Nicaragua until the last minute, too.

 

We were on the Prima's TA from NY to Southampton last April-May.  Lovely ship, but I don't recommend it for cold weather itineraries.  Losing the ability for passengers to enjoy all that outdoor space caused a lot of issues inside - dinner wait could be up to :30 min., even if you arrived when the MDR opened, small venues were packed up to :45 before an activity, just not designed for everyone to be inside all the time.