Volendam 8 million dollar docking period October 2024

[TRLD]

1 hour ago, HappyInVan said:

 

I am aware that size is important in many ports. It makes the difference between docking and tendering (pain). I'm not suggesting that HAL replace the V with a Pinnacle ship for remote regions. The pax demand isn't there for a ship that large.

 

Is it possible for HAL to build the latest and greatest mid-size ship at the current cruise fare?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Nova

 

I am aware that by 2030, Oceania's Oceania Class ships will be 20 years old. Possibly HAL could make a good offer. Viking ocean Cruises will be adding 10 ships by 2030. Doubling its fleet. So, purchasing the Viking Star (2015) would replace the V and Zaandam with ship that have 10-15 years of useful life.

 

Why do first tier companies hand off their old ships to second tier companies with less discerning pax? As parts age, the likelihood of failure increases dramatically. That's why car manufacturers have recommended replacement intervals.

 

Would you drive a vintage car long distance every day, without rebuilding the engine and transmission? And, replacing the brake calipers. Adding seat-belts if the original had none.

 

HAL ships are hard working ocean-going vessels. They are not pleasure boats that you sail on the weekends in good weather. That's why HAL is spending a lot of money on x-rays on the hull. Even a 3-year ship can suffer a catastrophic episode because of heavy seas.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Viking_Sky

 

You don't want to have a catastrophic failure of the engines or hull in the Straits of Magellan.

 

At the moment, HAL is opting to keep the old ships sailing with routine maintenance and refits. This is not an upgrade. The plumbing will still be spotty and the ceilings creak. The engines will still be inefficient by today's standards. Emissions will not meet today's standards. At some time in the next few years, it will have to commit to replacement ships. Or, make a drastic change to its itineraries.

 

 

No wrong again. the reason why CCL lines have sold ships befor3 25 is not because of increased risk of failure. Ships are not like a car where you drive it until the engine fails. Ships undergo continuous preventive maintenance. Engimes are routinely serviced, stripped down and rebuilt. 

 

The reason why they are sold is because maintenance costs go up due to regulatory requirements.   The inspections require longer, more frequent dry docks. Over a 5 year period the length of total dry dock might increase by 50%. Meaning that the cruise line has to schedule and work around an extra of couple of weeks down time.

 

Such ships are still profitable, but may show up  in ways like a slightly lower net margin. The little things that analysts looks for when making stock recommendations. Also by the 25 year point the ships are also fully depreciated on the companies books.

 

  If one looks at cruise ship major failures most have been in ships less than 20 years old, rather than the smaller older ships out there. A lot of those faolure have been due to newer technology such as the azipod failures relatively early on that Celebrity and others went through as the technology matured. You have had similar issues in the early years of the Viking ships. Their first ship went through a period of a couple of canceled cruises as that ship design went through teething issues.

 

Keep working on your doomed to fail search.

 

 

[rj59]

I'm afraid they'll get rid of the last of the traditional libraries, with the outdated books, and just make it a carbon copy of the generic library on the newer ships, with multiple copies of a curated selection of books. I actually liked it on Eurodam and Westerdam, in a space which used to be a movie theater, and unlike the old locations in the Crow's Nest or Explorations Cafe on Zaandam/Volendam, it's enclosed and doesn't have a bar or coffee shop, so fairly quiet, with windows out across the promenade deck. It's a nice change, since they got rid of all their Crow's Nest libraries, having some books there for a while, and now evidently just board games, and all the other lines have slowly shrunk or eliminated libraries, except for a few older Princess ships, I think. It makes me excited for Volendam for 14 days in June 2025, since it's the only pre-Pinnacle ship I haven't been on yet. Zaandam was a perfect ship for Alaska, and I'm sure it will be for Canada/New England also, the only ship in a major line that goes all the way to Montreal. I think it or Zaandam is also doing some cruises up the Amazon, so hopefully HAL will buck the trend and keep some small ships around and continue to do thoughtful updates, instead of constantly building bigger and bigger ships. 

[*Miss G*]

4 hours ago, rj59 said:

and all the other lines have slowly shrunk or eliminated libraries, except for a few older Princess ships, I think.

 

Cunard has exceptional libraries, including the recently-launched Queen Anne. If you go to the following page, scroll down, you can page through each ship.

 

Welcome to the Cunard Libraries

 

[chengkp75]

9 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

Is it possible for HAL to build the latest and greatest mid-size ship at the current cruise fare?

So, you're comparing a 1400 pax ship to a 700 pax ship?  And, consider a 700 pax ship as "mid-size"?  What are the comparable fares between HAL and Silverseas?  I don't know, but I don't think they are similar.

 

9 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

Would you drive a vintage car long distance every day, without rebuilding the engine and transmission? And, replacing the brake calipers. Adding seat-belts if the original had none.

Every piece of machinery on a ship has to be completely overhauled every 5 years.  The engines are completely torn down, virtually to a bare block, and all parts renewed, every 12,000 hours (which equates to about every 2.5 years), which is more than your car gets.

 

9 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

So, purchasing the Viking Star (2015) would replace the V and Zaandam with ship that have 10-15 years of useful life.

Who says Viking will be looking to sell 15 year old tonnage?  Again, half the size of the Volendam.

 

9 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

That's why HAL is spending a lot of money on x-rays on the hull.

These are mandatory under class rules, for all ships, not just HAL.  And, this is the cost reason that many companies sell off older tonnage, the steel replacement cost in hull, internal structure, and piping, not machinery cost.

 

9 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

Even a 3-year ship can suffer a catastrophic episode because of heavy seas.

 

9 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

You don't want to have a catastrophic failure of the engines or hull in the Straits of Magellan.

The Viking Sky was a human error, and as you say, it can happen to a new ship or old, this case had nothing to do with the ship's age, you are arguing against yourself here.

 

9 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

Emissions will not meet today's standards.

Emissions do meet today's standards, as the emissions regulations for ships are not retroactive.  Older ships can meet the standards of when they were built.

 

9 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

This is not an upgrade.

Who says they need an upgrade?  As long as the current product produces a profit, why spend extra money?

[TRLD]

26 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

So, you're comparing a 1400 pax ship to a 700 pax ship?  And, consider a 700 pax ship as "mid-size"?  What are the comparable fares between HAL and Silverseas?  I don't know, but I don't think they are similar.

 

Every piece of machinery on a ship has to be completely overhauled every 5 years.  The engines are completely torn down, virtually to a bare block, and all parts renewed, every 12,000 hours (which equates to about every 2.5 years), which is more than your car gets.

 

Who says Viking will be looking to sell 15 year old tonnage?  Again, half the size of the Volendam.

 

These are mandatory under class rules, for all ships, not just HAL.  And, this is the cost reason that many companies sell off older tonnage, the steel replacement cost in hull, internal structure, and piping, not machinery cost.

 

 

The Viking Sky was a human error, and as you say, it can happen to a new ship or old, this case had nothing to do with the ship's age, you are arguing against yourself here.

 

Emissions do meet today's standards, as the emissions regulations for ships are not retroactive.  Older ships can meet the standards of when they were built.

 

Who says they need an upgrade?  As long as the current product produces a profit, why spend extra money?

I thought the issue with Viking Sky was due to the oil level sensors shutting the engines down to prevent damage due to incorrect low oil level indications caused by the rolling of the ship in the rough seas.

Edited Sunday at 10:22 AM by TRLD

[chengkp75]

55 minutes ago, TRLD said:

I thought the issue with Viking Sky was due to the oil level sensors shutting the engines down to prevent damage due to incorrect low oil level indications caused by the rolling of the ship in the rough seas.

The root cause was the engineers keeping the oil level near the low end of the acceptable level.  This exacerbated the problems that oil level sensors have with rough seas, and the sensors shut the engines down.  The design of the oil sump tanks did not accurately portray what levels were acceptable to keep the engines from starving for oil, so even within the acceptable oil level range, as built, some levels could lead to oil starvation.  The required oil levels have been updated.

[Dutchman48]

On 9/20/2024 at 9:32 AM, HappyInVan said:

 

For example, the Pole-Pole departing Jan 25, 2025 is facing FP on Sept 27. Vacancies still available from Inside to Neptune. Lots of vacancies for Inside from aft to midship to forward.

 

Vacancies may not be due to ship but scheduling of two world cruises at same time. 

Wife and I chose the 124 day voyage on Zuiderdam over Pole-Pole on Volendam because of Itinerary not ship. Have sailed on both ships and will probably do it again if they have an itinerary we want.

[TRLD]

On 9/20/2024 at 5:32 PM, HappyInVan said:

 

For operational survival. After all, smaller 25-year ships can't be as fuel efficient or attractive as new ships. Whilst, HAL may hope to sustain 2x (or 3x) the fares on long itineraries as on 7-day itineraries. The question is whether pax are willing to pay up.

 

For example, the Pole-Pole departing Jan 25, 2025 is facing FP on Sept 27. Vacancies still available from Inside to Neptune. Lots of vacancies for Inside from aft to midship to forward.

 

I doubt that HAL is willing to invest big in the V in 2026, if they're not willing to redo the ship when its just 25-years.

 

Here's some feedback from me to HAL. You've got to be kidding!!!

If i recall correctly this is the first pole to pole cruise. HAL has also developed some  other new itineraries recently. Nice to see them continuing to develop and be innovative in their major strong point, unique itineraries.

 

Some of these may work, some may not. Only way to know for sure is to try them. Unlike the more traditional world cruise routes there is not exactly a  group of people that have heard about these routes for years.

 

Not surprising if sales are a bit soft for something that has not been done before. Even on world cruises a lot of the passengers on board are doing segments. Thus one does not having word of mouth from friends that have done it, because it is new.

 

Trying new routes, even if sales are soft on the first run, i consider it to be better than only doing the same routes as most of the other lines do.

Edited Sunday at 02:52 PM by TRLD

[*Miss G*]

Would have loved to have done the P2P but the timing is not yet right. Hoping they do it again. 🤞

[*Miss G*]

CC at it again.

Edited Sunday at 02:55 PM by *Miss G*

[BobbiSox]

Glad to hear about the repairs. I was on Volendam in May and booked a lanai for the rather long journey up to Canada.  The lanai door wouldn't close tightly, due to an old and rotting seal. The cold Canadian wind blew through the cabin day and night, and nobody cared. We kept the curtain closed tightly, secured with my own safety pins, and pushed our bed pillows and decorative pillows up against the bottom of the closed curtains to try and keep the cold wind out of the cabin. There was no heat in our cabin either, because the thermostat was 'out'. Nobody cared.  They would not fix it. They would not move us. All we got were lame excuses as to why they couldn't help us, so we spent the entire long journey trying to stay out of our cold room. Upon our return home, we were given a token Future Cruise Credit after filing a complaint. Too little, too late. No more 'old' ships for us. BTW, we are both 5*-Mariners, with almost 700 sea days. 

[HappyInVan]

Here is a real investment in an old ship...

 

“In January 2020 Norwegian Spirit underwent a major renovation project in Marseille, France.[10] The ship received six new restaurants, seven new bars and lounges, enhanced public areas, new and modernized staterooms and new hull art. The drydock took 43 days and cost over $100 million.[6][11]”

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Spirit

 

The Spirit is same age as the V. Yet, at age 22, the Spirit (75k GT) was given a real upgrade/modernization costing $100m. That's because the company had calculated that they will make back the money. I would like to see a similar act of confidence by HAL. 😀

[Gail & Marty sailing away]

28 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

Here is a real investment in an old ship...

 

“In January 2020 Norwegian Spirit underwent a major renovation project in Marseille, France.[10] The ship received six new restaurants, seven new bars and lounges, enhanced public areas, new and modernized staterooms and new hull art. The drydock took 43 days and cost over $100 million.[6][11]”

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Spirit

 

The Spirit is same age as the V. Yet, at age 22, the Spirit (75k GT) was given a real upgrade/modernization costing $100m. That's because the company had calculated that they will make back the money. I would like to see a similar act of confidence by HAL. 😀

That's a few dollars.

[chengkp75]

59 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

Here is a real investment in an old ship...

 

“In January 2020 Norwegian Spirit underwent a major renovation project in Marseille, France.[10] The ship received six new restaurants, seven new bars and lounges, enhanced public areas, new and modernized staterooms and new hull art. The drydock took 43 days and cost over $100 million.[6][11]”

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Spirit

 

The Spirit is same age as the V. Yet, at age 22, the Spirit (75k GT) was given a real upgrade/modernization costing $100m. That's because the company had calculated that they will make back the money. I would like to see a similar act of confidence by HAL. 😀

Gee, let's see what happened to the global cruise market shortly after the Spirit drydock, that changed the entire industry financial situation and outlook, shall we?  Maybe the Covid pandemic changed some ideas, and now NCL regrets spending that money.

[jlawrence01]

On 9/17/2024 at 6:19 PM, shadow 123 said:

It's also going to the Mediterranean in 2025.I'm scheduled for that.

I am currently at Canada Place looking at the Celebrity Solstice, HAL Nieuw Amsterdam, and the RCCL Brilliance of the Sea.  What separates the NA from the other ships is the level of maintenance done on the ship.  At the end of the Alaskan season, the ship looks pristine inside and out.  HAL takes very good care of the ships.

 

BOTS looks really terrible with a great deal of rust at many joints and a significant amount of missing paint.  It looks shabby.

 

Personally, I think that it is prudent not to build ships until some of the environmental issues are worked out in the coming years.  

 

 

[howiefrommd]

1 hour ago, HappyInVan said:

Here is a real investment in an old ship...

 

“In January 2020 Norwegian Spirit underwent a major renovation project in Marseille, France.[10] The ship received six new restaurants, seven new bars and lounges, enhanced public areas, new and modernized staterooms and new hull art. The drydock took 43 days and cost over $100 million.[6][11]”

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Spirit

 

The Spirit is same age as the V. Yet, at age 22, the Spirit (75k GT) was given a real upgrade/modernization costing $100m. That's because the company had calculated that they will make back the money. I would like to see a similar act of confidence by HAL. 😀

The HA customer tends to be price conscious. HA itself is busy with $ 1.00 cruise deposits, $ 99.00 last minute stand by cruise deals, and other wacky deals.  The next few years will tell how and where they land.  

[HappyInVan]

2 minutes ago, jlawrence01 said:

Personally, I think that it is prudent not to build ships until some of the environmental issues are worked out in the coming years.  

 

 

 

What environmental issues?

 

In the meantime, other brands are building efficient mega fun ships. Pax will fill them. Those brands will discard their old ships. What happens to those brands still using outdated old ships.

 

The reality is that no organization is immortal. No institution is imperishable. History is littered with the failed companies that failed to adapt. They can coast for a while on 'loyal' customers. But, time moves on. 🙄

[*Miss G*]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

and now NCL regrets spending that money.

 

I would tend to think this is the case, given their price increases, cutbacks, and blatant nickel-and-dimeing I keep reading about on these boards.

[BermudaBound2014]

On 9/17/2024 at 6:54 PM, CruiserBruce said:

91k tons is not "slightly bigger" than 61K tons, its half again as much. That is a lot more space for more stuff, more pax, more cabins and other stuff to refurbish.

 

I am not sure you can just compare drydocks and refurbishments by cost and size of ship. Maybe Connie just needed more work...

Someone asked the question whether 8 Million was more than usual for a dry dock. 
 

With a quick search, all I could find was 50 Million being spent on Connie (91K G/T) and 100 Million for Allure (240K G/T). To keep the ratios of investment the same,  Volendam would need appx  $33Million compared to Connie and 25 Million compared to Allure. 

 

With that very limited comparative data set, 8 million appears to be a very low investment per ton. 
 

Maybe @TRLD can shed more light 😉 

[BermudaBound2014]

43 minutes ago, *Miss G* said:

 

I would tend to think this is the case, given their price increases, cutbacks, and blatant nickel-and-dimeing I keep reading about on these boards.

NCL invested in the spirit before they knew the entire industry would be shuttered for 18 months. 

 

The extra costs going on now are likely tied to debt from Covid more than a 100m dry dock. I consider NCL the weakest of the big three financially.

[*Miss G*]

15 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

The extra costs going on now are likely tied to debt from Covid more than a 100m dry dock

 

Kind of six of one; half dozen of the other when you think about it, though. They were probably relying on future revenue to recoup the investment.

[chengkp75]

47 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

Someone asked the question whether 8 Million was more than usual for a dry dock.

$8 million is a tad high for a simple technical dry docking, though prices have gone through the roof, just like everything since Covid.  But, with the stated changes mentioned by the OP, it fits in price wise.

 

As for your two examples, remember that they are within the under 15 year age group, so they actually dry dock every 5 years, while Volendam is docking every 2.5 years.

[TRLD]

25 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

Someone asked the question whether 8 Million was more than usual for a dry dock. 
 

With a quick search, all I could find was 50 Million being spent on Connie (91K G/T) and 100 Million for Allure (240K G/T). To keep the ratios of investment the same,  Volendam would need appx  $33Million compared to Connie and 25 Million compared to Allure. 

 

With that very limited comparative data set, 8 million appears to be a very low investment per ton. 
 

Maybe @TRLD can shed more light 😉 

Keep in mind that the NCL refit of the Spirit more in line with the type of refit that happens when a cruise ship gets purchased by another line. Even though it did not change owners almost everything on the ship was changed making it more adult focused, complete change of doning venues. It was an even more major of a change  then what Celebrity did with their ships a few years ago when they completely redid their older ships in their revolution program.

 

I assume by Connie you mean the Celebrity Constellation which was originally supposed to go through it Revolution refit in 2021, but got delayed due to Covid. The Celebrity Revolution program was intended,and mostly completed pre covid to bring its older ships in line with the Apex. 

 

HAL ships have similar look and feel with differences in size.  The venues are pretty much the same on all HAL ships, just the number determined by ship size.

 

Considerably different than both NCL and Constellation cases where they are totally changing the look and feel because their newer ships are vastly different then their older ships.

 

 

The Allure is a similar case as part of the Royal Amplified refit. As with the other 2 a massive change of venues and other changes to bring the Allure in line with more recent builds.

[TRLD]

4 hours ago, howiefrommd said:

The HA customer tends to be price conscious. HA itself is busy with $ 1.00 cruise deposits, $ 99.00 last minute stand by cruise deals, and other wacky deals.  The next few years will tell how and where they land.  

Funny thing is that when you look at the revenue per fleet capacity HALs numbers in revenue dollars per bunk (100% capacity) HALs is better than Princess and within a few dollars of Celebrity.  That would indicate that HAL making very good use of its capacity. With good revenue yield for each bunk.

 

 So really not more wacky deals than others.

 

Currently on P&O Iona so do not have my notes from when I ran the calculations a couple of months ago, but the exact numbers are were posted in a stream then 

[BermudaBound2014]

It seems to me that other lines are investing more to update their ships with a more modern feel. 
 

As mentioned, I sailed Connie in 2023 and she received many of the soft furnishings planned for 2021. The ship looked Great on the inside unlike current photos I’m seeing of the V which look quite dated. I’m astonished that Celebrity is investing ANOTHER 50 Million in renovation as that ship was crisp and modern already. 

 

I’d rather sail on a ship with new and modern decor (especially redoing the bathrooms on V which look quite long in the tooth).  But, at this time, I’m more concerned with itinerary than decor, so wouldn’t rule V out even though she appears to need much more than just carpeting.