Passport Clarification Needed..

[Terpnut]

so are people able to get off the ship at the ports (Caribbean) without passports?

Yes, but that really shouldn't be your principal concern regarding whether or not to have and carry a passport. Because your passport is the only US-government-recognized form of identification and proof of citizenship, it is required for you to fly back into the US. So in the event you miss the ship, have a medical emergency (WHTI exemption not withstanding) or experience any other unforeseen circumstance, are you okay with the huge problem you will have receiving help and getting home? Remember, once you are in a foreign country outside the laws and protections of the United States. Thus when any of us attempt to return "home", the burden of proof of citizenship is on you and a passport is the only official, authoritative document that will work all the time. So much recommendation is: get your passport and carry it with you whenever you step foot outside of the US--no exceptions. Edited September 11, 2009 by Terpnut

[chefpammy]

Yes, but that really shouldn't be your principal concern regarding whether or not to have and carry a passport. Because your passport is the only US-government-recognized form of identification and proof of citizenship, it is required for you to fly back into the US. So in the event you miss the ship, have a medical emergency (WHTI exemption not withstanding) or experience any other unforeseen circumstance, are you okay with the huge problem you will have receiving help and getting home? Remember, once you are in a foreign country outside the laws and protections of the United States. Thus when any of us attempt to return "home", the burden of proof of citizenship is on you and a passport is the only official, authoritative document that will work all the time. So much recommendation is: get your passport and carry it with you whenever you step foot outside of the US--no exceptions.

 

I understand all that and I personally already have a passport (note my signature...no way I could go to Jamaica/Mexico without one!) I'm inquiring on behalf of a friend who is going to be cruising without a passport. I've already explained all the dreadful consequences to him.

 

So, my only question was whether or not passengers are allowed to leave the ship without a passport. I believe you've answered that. Thank you.

[Ellanora]

Just got off Carnival Freedom this morning, (ports of Jamaica and Grand Cayman) with BC/DL for me and BC for my 12 year old. (Yes, I know, passports are best, and they are on the agenda for next year.) Anyway, I had no problems until returning to Port Everglades and going through customs. The agent gave me a lecture on not having a passport (which I expected so that was fine.) What I didn't expect was for him to ask for photo id for my 12 year old. He became quite irate - looked very closely at my birth certificate and driver's license (names match, never married, and it's obviously my picture.) Then looked at my son's birth certificate (which only has my name on it as parent.) He said something to the effect of "see, I can't even verify it's him without photo id" and pretty much threw the papers back at me and said we could go, at which point we hightailed it out of there before he could change his mind. :confused: Never had a problem like that before. According to the gov websites, kids under 16 don't require photo id with their birth certificate in this circumstance.

[milklady]

Just got off Carnival Freedom this morning, (ports of Jamaica and Grand Cayman) with BC/DL for me and BC for my 12 year old. (Yes, I know, passports are best, and they are on the agenda for next year.) Anyway, I had no problems until returning to Port Everglades and going through customs. The agent gave me a lecture on not having a passport (which I expected so that was fine.) What I didn't expect was for him to ask for photo id for my 12 year old. He became quite irate - looked very closely at my birth certificate and driver's license (names match, never married, and it's obviously my picture.) Then looked at my son's birth certificate (which only has my name on it as parent.) He said something to the effect of "see, I can't even verify it's him without photo id" and pretty much threw the papers back at me and said we could go, at which point we hightailed it out of there before he could change his mind. :confused: Never had a problem like that before. According to the gov websites, kids under 16 don't require photo id with their birth certificate in this circumstance.

 

So, having children accompanying us in our group, 10 at ages 15 down to 4, which the little ones especially, would have BC but would not have photo ID's??? What would we do? Where do you get something like that?

[Ellanora]

So, having children accompanying us in our group, 10 at ages 15 down to 4, which the little ones especially, would have BC but would not have photo ID's??? What would we do? Where do you get something like that?

My son actually has a photo id that he has to wear for school, that was made by the school, but I didn't have it with me. It isn't issued by the state or anything, but probably would have sufficed.

 

Really, I think I just ended up with the agent who got out of bed on the wrong side that morning.

[milklady]

My son actually has a photo id that he has to wear for school, that was made by the school, but I didn't have it with me. It isn't issued by the state or anything, but probably would have sufficed.

 

Really, I think I just ended up with the agent who got out of bed on the wrong side that morning.

 

OK, lets hope that's the case, as the younger kids 4 - 15 with us wouldn't have photo ID's, but HS has school ID, but then the 16 and up need PP anyway... so we'll just bring family photos, lol.

[cherylandtk]

Just as there are quite a few CC members that are vocal in their opinions that everyone should have a passport....so are there immigration agents with the same opinion. But it is just that, an opinion. Unfortunately, their job puts them in a position to exert undue pressure on travellers who are complying with the law. In the two cases reported here, both times the agent got all huffy and made comments about how inadequate the documentation was, but never did anything to actually detain, further question or pull aside the legally documented travellers. It is all bark, no bite.

 

Ideally, a traveller could simply ask the agent to call over a supervisor, have the supervisor explain the regulation to the opinionated agent and that would be the end of it. However, given the implied threat of being detained, I don't think any traveller would want to press the issue at that point and would just do what they could to get out of the building.

 

If you are worried about not having photo ID for your children, you could always take along a copy of the CFR (Code of Federal Regulation) or a printout of the page from DHS (http://www.getyouhome.gov). If you happen to get one of 'those' agents, having proof that you know the rules might tone down their histrionics.

[Terpnut]

Just as there are quite a few CC members that are vocal in their opinions that everyone should have a passport....so are there immigration agents with the same opinion. But it is just that, an opinion. Unfortunately, their job puts them in a position to exert undue pressure on travellers who are complying with the law. In the two cases reported here, both times the agent got all huffy and made comments about how inadequate the documentation was, but never did anything to actually detain, further question or pull aside the legally documented travellers. It is all bark, no bite.

 

Ideally, a traveller could simply ask the agent to call over a supervisor, have the supervisor explain the regulation to the opinionated agent and that would be the end of it. However, given the implied threat of being detained, I don't think any traveller would want to press the issue at that point and would just do what they could to get out of the building.

 

If you are worried about not having photo ID for your children, you could always take along a copy of the CFR (Code of Federal Regulation) or a printout of the page from DHS (www.getyouhome.gov). If you happen to get one of 'those' agents, having proof that you know the rules might tone down their histrionics.

At the risk of belaboring my point at nauseum again: the central issue is not one of various immigration officials or ordinary people issues having different opinions. It is not a matter of whether or not you are complying with the law, regulation or rule. The central issue or problem is that (and this is even if you feel you are complying with the law), there is only ONE official, authoritative form of identification for US or other citizens -- it is called a passport. Every other piece of paper on the planet are just "things" that are locally or school-issued or home-made, non-authoritative, non-verifiable forms of paper. Even a state-issued driver's license does not qualify! None of these things are identification for international border control, identification or citizenship purposes.

 

Think about it. Anyone can fake a school ID, driver's license, etc. Even states have few means to authenticate or corroborate each other's state-issued driver's licenses so even a driver's license is NOT a good form of identification within the US! Heck, I have a home-made photo ID I carry for each of my kids in the event of emergency but I wouldn't think to offer it up as "ID". This is why border agents need and ask for passports. While temporary exemptions to passport requirements exist, do you really want to play that game with border control officials to save a few bucks? So people, please stop rationalizing this and that as "photo ID" for children. You are playing with fire. There is only ONE that is official and works universally--a US passport. So please, for the sake of your kids, just go get one. :rolleyes:

Edited September 24, 2009 by Terpnut

[zuscruiserz]

At the risk of belaboring my point at nauseum again: the central issue is not one of various immigration officials or ordinary people issues having different opinions. It is not a matter of whether or not you are complying with the law, regulation or rule. The central issue or problem is that (and this is even if you feel you are complying with the law), there is only ONE official, authoritative form of identification for US or other citizens -- it is called a passport. Every other piece of paper on the planet are just "things" that are locally or school-issued or home-made, non-authoritative, non-verifiable forms of paper. Even a state-issued driver's license does not qualify! None of these things are identification for international border control, identification or citizenship purposes.

 

Think about it. Anyone can fake a school ID, driver's license, etc. Even states have few means to authenticate or corroborate each other's state-issued driver's licenses so even a driver's license is NOT a good form of identification within the US! Heck, I have a home-made photo ID I carry for each of my kids in the event of emergency but I wouldn't think to offer it up as "ID". This is why border agents need and ask for passports. While temporary exemptions to passport requirements exist, do you really want to play that game with border control officials to save a few bucks? So people, please stop rationalizing this and that as "photo ID" for children. You are playing with fire. There is only ONE that is official and works universally--a US passport. So please, for the sake of your kids, just go get one. :rolleyes:

 

I believe most people on these boards know all of this, ad nauseum. We have heard it many, MANY times before and really do realize the risks.

 

BUT, some are like me (who has had a passport for years) and are travelling with a friend who does not. This is her first, and most probably last cruise she will ever take. She has never been out of the country or on a cruise before in her 50+ years, and I am paying her way as she is very strapped for cash at the moment (just lost her job, has extra family living with her, etc.). I just cannot see telling her to get a passport for this one trip she is taking with her finances the way they are. How rude of me to do so when a Birth Certificate will suffice (and yes, I have checked, it is a certified copy with the raised seal, I used mine many times before getting my passport and know what they look like).

 

Can you justify the extra expense to her??? If you were in her shoes with no job and many (adult) mouths to feed at home, would you spend the $100 on a one-time only frivolous item? She actually asked me if she "needed" a passport and I told her no, correctly I believe.

 

So please, if people are asking if they really need a passport, tell them about the circumstances they may encounter, then let them choose whether this is acceptable to THEM or not. You are not in their shoes.

 

And BTW, my friend is so excited to go on this cruise that she can hardly stand it. Please don't tell me she shouldn't be going if she can't afford it, her great pleasure in this little vacation has been more than worth it to me for the relatively small price I am paying.

 

Food for thought...;)

[Terpnut]

I believe most people on these boards know all of this, ad nauseum. We have heard it many, MANY times before and really do realize the risks.

 

BUT, some are like me (who has had a passport for years) and are travelling with a friend who does not. This is her first, and most probably last cruise she will ever take. She has never been out of the country or on a cruise before in her 50+ years, and I am paying her way as she is very strapped for cash at the moment (just lost her job, has extra family living with her, etc.). I just cannot see telling her to get a passport for this one trip she is taking with her finances the way they are. How rude of me to do so when a Birth Certificate will suffice (and yes, I have checked, it is a certified copy with the raised seal, I used mine many times before getting my passport and know what they look like).

 

Can you justify the extra expense to her??? If you were in her shoes with no job and many (adult) mouths to feed at home, would you spend the $100 on a one-time only frivolous item? She actually asked me if she "needed" a passport and I told her no, correctly I believe.

 

So please, if people are asking if they really need a passport, tell them about the circumstances they may encounter, then let them choose whether this is acceptable to THEM or not. You are not in their shoes.

 

And BTW, my friend is so excited to go on this cruise that she can hardly stand it. Please don't tell me she shouldn't be going if she can't afford it, her great pleasure in this little vacation has been more than worth it to me for the relatively small price I am paying.

 

Food for thought...;)

I completely understand if someone understands the risks and doesn't want to get a passport. I completely agree that if your friend is comfortable with it, she doesn't need a passport for her one and only cruise. I'm not lecturing you or your friend on getting a passport.

 

What bothers me is when the thread digresses into various sub-discussions, e.g. ID for children, and the discussion veers (again) toward what is an "acceptable" form of ID. I just think these digressions are confusing and might lead certain people to think that, combined with a birth certificate, that these school IDs or driver's licenses are actually a substitute for a passport for identification purposes. They are not. For a short time only, they can be used in lieu of a passport for US border control and reentry purposes only. They are not a substitute form of official identification or citizenship. This distinction is important IMHO, however if others don't think so that's fine with me so long as everyone understands there is this distinction. :)

Edited September 24, 2009 by Terpnut

[zuscruiserz]

Terpnut - I totally agree with your assessment of the above. These threads often morph into "but my friend brought this and that and they were allowed on the ship", and we should be aware of the dangerous road that can lead where newbies can easily become confused (not only newbies, but me too :o).

 

I am glad we do still have a choice in the matter (BC's or passports), even though I immediately ran out to get passports for me and my family when questions started to be raised about whether they would ultimately be "required" for cruising. I don't want my cruise addiction curtailed for something like this :p.

 

Thanks for being so kind when I know many on this board would not be if they disagreed ;).

[Terpnut]

Terpnut - I totally agree with your assessment of the above. These threads often morph into "but my friend brought this and that and they were allowed on the ship", and we should be aware of the dangerous road that can lead where newbies can easily become confused (not only newbies, but me too :o).

 

I am glad we do still have a choice in the matter (BC's or passports), even though I immediately ran out to get passports for me and my family when questions started to be raised about whether they would ultimately be "required" for cruising. I don't want my cruise addiction curtailed for something like this :p.

 

Thanks for being so kind when I know many on this board would not be if they disagreed ;).

I can sometimes get a little carried away on this issue because I am so concerned about this WHTI exemption making so many people think they can casually disregard the "need" for a passport, so I appreciate your understanding and nice remarks! :) Anyhow, I sincerely hope you and your friend have a super cruise! :p

[milklady]

Thanks to all for the input.:rolleyes:

[zuscruiserz]

So, having children accompanying us in our group, 10 at ages 15 down to 4, which the little ones especially, would have BC but would not have photo ID's??? What would we do? Where do you get something like that?

 

You can get State picture ID's for minors at the DMV. That's what we did for our youngest daughter before she got her Driver's License in July. Never needed to show it, but I was much more comfortable once we had it :).

[olaydt]

We have relatives from Europe going on their first cruise next year with us. They will fly here and we will drive to the port to leave to go to a western Caribbean cruise. They will have their passports, no problem there. However, do they NEED a traveling visa also to get off at the various ports and reboard????

 

I don't really know who to ask this question. I asked Carnival Cruise Line and they said to contact their government. My questionn if we who live in the USA are so unsure about rules and regulations of whether BC and pic of children are allowed, what is the real answer for our relatives who will be coming here to take their first cruise.

 

With all the illegals who come into our country and are allowed to stay and nothing is done , it always amazes me that we are so strictly monitored ourselves. Sorry, but I finally had to say it!!!

[Terpnut]

We have relatives from Europe going on their first cruise next year with us. They will fly here and we will drive to the port to leave to go to a western Caribbean cruise. They will have their passports, no problem there. However, do they NEED a traveling visa also to get off at the various ports and reboard????

 

I don't really know who to ask this question. I asked Carnival Cruise Line and they said to contact their government. My questionn if we who live in the USA are so unsure about rules and regulations of whether BC and pic of children are allowed, what is the real answer for our relatives who will be coming here to take their first cruise.

 

With all the illegals who come into our country and are allowed to stay and nothing is done , it always amazes me that we are so strictly monitored ourselves. Sorry, but I finally had to say it!!!

It's not the responsibility of the cruise line or the country of departure to inform each traveller what they do or don't need to enter a particular country. Nor can anyone here on these boards possibly answer your very general question as you don't even say which country your relatives are from. The number of permutations are infinite so the responsibility belongs to the citizen of a country who wishes to enter another country. So your relatives need to inquire with their own Dept of State (or comparable government agency) to determine what documentation, if anything, is needed to enter/visit each country on your Caribbean itinerary. Your frustration is misplaced as none of this has anything to do with the US, our immigration policies, illegals or Carnival being "unsure" about rules and regulations. Carnival gave your relatives very good advice--check with your government. The problem is that neither you nor your relatives have bothered to do your own homework. Edited October 7, 2009 by Terpnut

[olaydt]

Terp, that is why I was writing for information on this site!!!!

 

I am trying to do the homework for our Dutch relatives plus for ourselves!!

 

Now I am reading about ESTA and I don't know if that is something we American citizens also have to have besides our passports. Or is this ONLY for people who are coming from Holland.

 

Thank you

[cherylandtk]

That would depend entirely on what country in Europe and which countries your cruise is visiting.

[jcl410]

 

I am trying to do the homework for our Dutch relatives plus for ourselves!!

 

Now I am reading about ESTA and I don't know if that is something we American citizens also have to have besides our passports. Or is this ONLY for people who are coming from Holland.

 

Thank you

 

The ESTA (Electronic System for Travel Authorization) is free online tool at http://www.cbp.gov.

 

It is ONLY used by citizens of countries in the Visa Waiver Program (like the Netherlands) to register with Homeland Security BEFORE they travel into the US.

 

When doing research on the Internet, I stick to the gov. web sites. I started at http://travel.state.gov, and in 10 min. I found the real (and free) ESTA link, and also, as an example, a link to the Jamaican Embassy. I don't know if you're going there, but here is what it said :

 

"Cruise passengers of any nationality who intend to remain in the island [Jamaica] only during the stay of the vessel by which they arrived and to depart on the same vessel are not required to hold passports."

 

 

You or your relatives need to check each country as to entry requirements. (Unfortunatly, not every country's web site is as definitive on cruise ship requirments as the one above. :-( )

 

Aloha,

 

John

[Terpnut]

Terp, that is why I was writing for information on this site!!!!

 

I am trying to do the homework for our Dutch relatives plus for ourselves!!

 

Now I am reading about ESTA and I don't know if that is something we American citizens also have to have besides our passports. Or is this ONLY for people who are coming from Holland.

 

Thank you

Yes, ESTA is for international citizens wishing to enter the U.S. It has not for U.S. citizens.

[olaydt]

Thank you JC, Cher and Terp for your quick replies. Now that I have some of my questions answered I can inform our relatives of their first steps. We will go to Grand Cayman, Montego Bay, Cozumel. I am sure there will be no problem getting on or off ship but just wondered if there were any more rules that I was unaware of.

 

We, having relatives in Europe, have always had passports. Would'nt be with out them!

[Jarell247]

that is true

[dooandherb]

In regards to the Dutch relatives.

They will have the green Visa waiver card attached in their passport, upon re-entry in the US, they will have to fill one out again and present it to immigration at the port of entry.

ESTA is not a matter of concern as they needed the approval prior to their flight to the U.S. and is valid for 2 years I believe.

The visa waiver countries as of now do not need a multiple entry visa, although the rules are changing again.

The cruise lines may take their passport upon embarkation and not yours or vice versa, either way do not be alarmed. On the last day of the cruise before debarkation, all "foreign" visitors will receive their passports back.

 

In doubt call the Dutch help line:1-877-DUTCHHELP (phone)

Dutch consulate in Miami website: http://www.cgmiami.org/homepage.asp

 

In regards to the original thread; You leave the country, have a passport, no matter what the circumstances (financial hardship etc.(budget for it)) it really is as simple as that.

All issues that may come into play because you do not have a passport, are taken care off because you have one. I believe that is called worry free cruising. You'll be glad you did when you need it.

[olaydt]

I certainly appreciate your clear and concise answer. I have copied and pasted it into an email going to our relatives in Holland.

 

If it weren't for forums like this what would I do??? There is tremendous information at my fingertips and I am forever grateful for the kind replies and general information that I glean from Cruise Critics.

 

 

O

[graycottag]

I learned from a difficult experience some years ago the hard way, and never, never , never leave home now without both my passport and an original birth certificate.

 

The passport I know will get me back INTO the country - if you don't have proof of US citizenship, you can't come home without a LOT of problems. US Immigration is very strict about that know matter how much you plead. I also carry the birth certificate - if you are in a situation where the host country becomes "difficult" in their attitude to Americans, or rules tighten up making it hard for Americans to travel, and there is a need for an emergency evacuation of some sort, it makes it eaier to get out via a Vatican Nuncio rather than the US Embassy... most times our embassies are not all that helpful. I may be overcautious, but after a scare in Europe during the post 9/11 days, I feel better travelling that way. We won't even mention the bribe cash I carry in my shoes... LOL