Passport Clarification Needed..

[TPKeller]

DHS has today updated some of their travel pages and lists of WHTI compliant documents. Nothing huge in most of it, but I do note the following clarifications. Or at least this is what strikes me as new.

1. Children sixteen and under may use BC to cross at contiguous land or sea borders. (They added the contiguous part, which means Canada and Mexico.)

 

2. They reworded the cruise exception to say this:

"Closed Loop" Cruises: U.S. citizens who board a cruise ship at a port within the United States, travel only within the Western Hemisphere, and return to the same U.S. port on the same ship may present a government issued photo identification, along with proof of citizenship (an original or copy of his or her birth certificate, a Consular report of Birth Abroad, or a Certificate of Naturalization). Please be aware that you may still be required to present a passport to enter the foreign countries your cruise ship is visiting. Check with your cruise line to ensure you have the appropriate documents

 

I think, but am not positive, that the 'travel only within the Western Hemisphere' wording is new. I am still leaning towards the inclusion of Belize, Honduras, Costa Rica, etc. in the Western Hemisphere. The CBP page still (to me at least) seems to apply only to US-VISIT and VWP modified processing.

I think they are still committing the same error that they have been for a while now, it should read "travel only within the Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative Area". The countries for which these rules do not apply are obviously still in the Western Hemisphere. I guess the author of the rule text didn't do too well in 9th grade World Geography!

 

Theron

[cherylandtk]

Theron,

I must have missed it - can you point me to where they define the "Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative Area"? I can only find Western Hemisphere on the DHS site. Thanks.

[TPKeller]

Theron,

I must have missed it - can you point me to where they define the "Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative Area"? I can only find Western Hemisphere on the DHS site. Thanks.

Nothing is particularly easy to find on a government web site!

 

This link lists the areas, which include the "Caribbean region", which is the list of nations that leaves out the Central American countries so often noted here.

 

I just noticed that for Jamaica, their inclusion only applies if you are not on business travel! Even more confusing.

 

Theron

[cherylandtk]

Theron,

Thanks - I had seen that page before, but since it came from State, with its often over-broad statements about needing passports - I was wondering if DHS had the same definition. This now, however, appears to be a moot point, as both RCL and Carnival, the two lines with current round trips that include Belize and/or Honduras have now updated their passport pages to include this statement:

 

Recent guidance received from the Department of Homeland Security indicates the documentary requirements under WHTI for “closed loop” cruises are not limited to cruises that travel only to contiguous territories or adjacent islands. This means U.S. citizens calling on ports in Honduras, Panama, Costa Rica and Belize will also be exempt from the passport requirement.

 

I also see that the CBP page on this question http://help.cbp.gov/cgi-bin/customs.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1139&p_created=1238714641&p_sid=fBXu2rzj&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_lva=572&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX3Jvd19jbnQ9MTcsMTcmcF9wcm9kcz0wJnBfY2F0cz0wJnBfcHY9JnBfY3Y9JnBfcGFnZT0xJnBfc2VhcmNoX3RleHQ9Y2xvc2VkIGxvb3A*&p_li=&p_topview=1 has the phrasing about 'contiguous territories and adjacent islands' applying only to visitors to the US on I-94s and on VWP.

 

I suspect the many queries on this board, as well as the subsequent inquiries to CBP and the cruiselines may have had something to do with that clarification. Now if we could just get the State page to match....

 

:D Cheryl

[smeyer418]

Nothing is particularly easy to find on a government web site!

 

This link lists the areas, which include the "Caribbean region", which is the list of nations that leaves out the Central American countries so often noted here.

 

I just noticed that for Jamaica, their inclusion only applies if you are not on business travel! Even more confusing.

 

Theron

How many people on a cruise ship will be on business travel? Many countries require a visa when on a business trip which don't for a tourist visa....its different than being a tourist

[TPKeller]

Theron,

Thanks - I had seen that page before, but since it came from State, with its often over-broad statements about needing passports - I was wondering if DHS had the same definition. This now, however, appears to be a moot point, as both RCL and Carnival, the two lines with current round trips that include Belize and/or Honduras have now updated their passport pages to include this statement:

 

 

 

I also see that the CBP page on this question http://help.cbp.gov/cgi-bin/customs.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1139&p_created=1238714641&p_sid=fBXu2rzj&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_lva=572&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX3Jvd19jbnQ9MTcsMTcmcF9wcm9kcz0wJnBfY2F0cz0wJnBfcHY9JnBfY3Y9JnBfcGFnZT0xJnBfc2VhcmNoX3RleHQ9Y2xvc2VkIGxvb3A*&p_li=&p_topview=1 has the phrasing about 'contiguous territories and adjacent islands' applying only to visitors to the US on I-94s and on VWP.

 

I suspect the many queries on this board, as well as the subsequent inquiries to CBP and the cruiselines may have had something to do with that clarification. Now if we could just get the State page to match....

 

:D Cheryl

Wow, I hadn't heard that yet! Crazy...

 

I'm just off Grandeur to Bermuda (sailed 5/30) and one of the folks in my group who was using a BC/DL told me that the check-in clerk told her that she was lucky, as this was "the last sailing that would be allowed to use that" for ID! :eek: If they don't do some serious edumacatin' down there in Norfolk, they're going to be in for a lot of very irritated passengers!

 

The next sailing was a 9 day that sailed on Thursday (6/4) it will be interesting to see if anyone there reports any trouble.

 

Theron

[rottiemom]

Are you kidding? Just get a passport. Join the rest of the world. It's really ok. Imagine you may want to actually go to Europe, Asia, Africa, etc. etc. I love having a passport and looking at all the places I've been....and anticipating where I will go next time.

[TPKeller]

Are you kidding? Just get a passport. Join the rest of the world. It's really ok. Imagine you may want to actually go to Europe, Asia, Africa, etc. etc. I love having a passport and looking at all the places I've been....and anticipating where I will go next time.

Nobody is kidding. This is not a thread discussing whether it is better to have a passport, this is a thread discussing whether or not a passport is required.

 

There is little debate that having a passport is better than not having a passport. But at the same time, there are many cruises for which a passport is not required. That's the beautiful thing about a free society, when presented with the facts, we can each weigh our own cost/benefit/risk ratio, and make up our own minds.

 

Theron

[TPKeller]

I also see that the CBP page on this question http://help.cbp.gov/cgi-bin/customs.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1139&p_created=1238714641&p_sid=fBXu2rzj&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_lva=572&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX3Jvd19jbnQ9MTcsMTcmcF9wcm9kcz0wJnBfY2F0cz0wJnBfcHY9JnBfY3Y9JnBfcGFnZT0xJnBfc2VhcmNoX3RleHQ9Y2xvc2VkIGxvb3A*&p_li=&p_topview=1 has the phrasing about 'contiguous territories and adjacent islands' applying only to visitors to the US on I-94s and on VWP.

That's a very good page... I posted it on another thread where the question came up "what is a closed loop cruise?"

 

Did you notice that they have also dropped the "certified" qualifier when describing the copy of the Birth Certificate? We noticed quite a while ago that the final WHTI rules dropped it, and now this informational page carries that language without it as well.

 

The link above says: "an original or copy of your birth certificate." Not "an original or certified copy of your birth certificate!" And of course we all know that nobody travels with their "original"... those all stay safely locked up in each state's vital records department. The fact that they use "original or copy" would seem to imply that you may use either a certified copy (which is the only "original" that you could have in your possession) or a non-certified copy, which you could make from that certified copy that you have. I wish they had been more clear on their intent here.

 

I wouldn't want to be the first to try boarding a ship without that seal on the copy of my BC, but it will be interesting to watch for reports of folks who do.

 

Theron

[Terpnut]

Nobody is kidding. This is not a thread discussing whether it is better to have a passport, this is a thread discussing whether or not a passport is required.

 

There is little debate that having a passport is better than not having a passport. But at the same time, there are many cruises for which a passport is not required. That's the beautiful thing about a free society, when presented with the facts, we can each weigh our own cost/benefit/risk ratio, and make up our own minds.

 

Theron

Hi Theron--After all this time, and June 1st has passed, this exception still remains as clear as mud. In fact, I think you'd agree that it only gets more confusing. While I fully respect your desire to understand how this "no passport" exception will work for certain cruise passengers, I think even you might agree that, at this point, the existence of this exception is more theoretical than real, and that everyone would be better off ignoring the existence of the WHTI exception and getting their passport. :p Edited June 11, 2009 by Terpnut

[TPKeller]

Hi Theron--After all this time, this issue still remains as clear as mud. In fact, I think you'd agree that it only gets more confusing. While I fully respect your desire to understand how this "no passport" exception will work for certain cruise passengers, I think even you might agree that, at this point, the existence of this exception is more theoretical than real, and that everyone would be better off pretending there is no WHTI exception and just get their passport. :p

Well as a matter of fact, I really don't feel that way at all. I know you feel very strongly on the matter, but I am seeing more and more evidence that the closed loop exception is becoming better and better known, even beyond this message thread (:)), and that it is starting to be accepted as an option for passengers on the vast majority of sailings from US ports. As I always have, I will continue to opine that obtaining a passport is the best way to go, and I will tell people that when I am asked, and sometimes even when I am not. But I think the BC/DL exception for closed loops is going to stick, and it's going to work out just fine.

 

I just did a Google search on the terms: ["closed loop" cruise exception], and that popped up hundreds of pages on the issue. The word is getting out.

 

The jury is still out, it has just not been long enough to make any calls on how things will eventually settle out, but I'm more encouraged than ever before that it's going to smooth out to be just what Congress intended, a system that keeps us secure, without crippling the cruise industry.

 

I'm still watching, as many of us will be for several more months, especially for "post-June 1" first-hand reports of needing to return home by air. That will be the critical information that determines whether the closed loop exception lives or dies.

 

Theron

[cherylandtk]

If I may, I would interject here that since the international air travel passport requirement has been in place since Jan 2007, and many folks have been using just BC/ID to board their cruise ships between then and now, and the only newsworthy got-left-behind story was that of the Cortes family....I am going to predict that there will not be any big flurry of emergency stories post-June 1, either.

 

Yes, people get left behind on many sailings, probably most. Yes, it seems every sailing has one or two emergency departures, as well. It's just that we rarely saw news items or posts here on CC about those events. I don't expect to see any change in that.

[annpharm]

I have a passport and agree it is easier/safer etc to get one. I would like to provide a reason as to why someone may not feel the need to get one. My sister is cruising with me on a "closed loop" cruise in November. She has no intention of ever leaving the country again. This is a one time deal for her, so why fork out the money if she doesn't have to? We are making one stop in Cozumel and the chances of an emergency are quite slim. Her finances are tight so why buy a passport when she could use that money to pay her bar bill?

 

I am trying to decide whether to talk her into it or let her take her chances...while I agree it would give me peace of mind, would you agree that her situation may justify NOT getting the passport?

 

And where is the best place to find out which countries require a passport to enter? Thankyou for your opinions.

[cherylandtk]

I have a passport and agree it is easier/safer etc to get one. I would like to provide a reason as to why someone may not feel the need to get one. My sister is cruising with me on a "closed loop" cruise in November. She has no intention of ever leaving the country again. This is a one time deal for her, so why fork out the money if she doesn't have to? We are making one stop in Cozumel and the chances of an emergency are quite slim. Her finances are tight so why buy a passport when she could use that money to pay her bar bill?

 

I am trying to decide whether to talk her into it or let her take her chances...while I agree it would give me peace of mind, would you agree that her situation may justify NOT getting the passport?

 

And where is the best place to find out which countries require a passport to enter? Thankyou for your opinions.

I would not try to talk her into anything one way or the other; lay out the facts and the risks of the choices available to her and let her decide for herself. Nobody else's opinion should be relevant.

 

As for countries requiring a passport on a cruise. None of the typical "caribbean" round-trip week long cruises go to any ports that require passports, that includes Honduras, Belize and Costa Rica. Some of the longer cruises that go to Brazil or transit the Panama Canal do, but those are longer trips and are usually listed under the 'exotics' not 'Caribbean'. One of the luxury lines requires passports of all passengers, regardless of destination.

[Joopman]

I have a passport, but I am taking a new girlfriend to the seas in September. She does not have passport. We are going to go for one today.

 

How long are they taking now?

[Ontario Cruiser]

Another issue besides needing a passport is to my understanding that they need to have a no less than a 6 months expiry for some countries as well as some cruise lines. We are Canadian and I just phoned our passport office and they confirmed this and said that you can do an early renewal within a year of the passport renewal date. Our passport expires May 1010 and we are cruising to Australia & New Zealand in early December as well as South America starting in Brazil in March so we need to get all our ducks in order soon. It could take longer than usual for passport renewals due to the volume that it been received.

Ontario Cruiser

[cherylandtk]

DHS (and CBP and State) have cleaned up their site so that most, if not all, 'WHTI document' references now link directly to the http://www.getyouhome.gov listings.

[FLACRUISER99]

What every single person on this thread is forgetting is that the world can change at a moments notice and various government agency's can change the rules at any time. Better to be prepared with a Passport in case the rules do change.

[cherylandtk]

jtutak - Not at all, most of the regular posters on this thread actually have passports. :)

 

The reason for this particular thread, and the reason it was made a sticky, is to keep abreast of those specific changes you mention. Whether from the US or from destination countries. To that end, several of us suscribe and monitor pending legislative changes in order to post them here.

[TPKeller]

And don't forget... arguably the greatest "change" this world has ever seen was 9/11, and it still took them eight years to get these new laws and rules in place.

 

No matter what happens, people still have to live, have to get home, have to do business. Rules can't change so much that will prevent people from living their lives, the consequences of that are too great.

 

Theron

Edited July 18, 2009 by TPKeller

[cledwards2]

I am from Michigan, and just applied for an "enhanced drivers licence" which is good for traveling to and from Canada and the Caribbean. Not sure if this is just for michigan or other states. Does anyone else know about this.

 

Carol

[pms4104]

I am from Michigan, and just applied for an "enhanced drivers licence" which is good for traveling to and from Canada and the Caribbean. Not sure if this is just for michigan or other states. Does anyone else know about this.

 

Carol

The EDL is good only for land and sea travelers. A couple of states, literally only a handful, has gotten onboard with this program. There has been quite a lot of negative feelings for the EDL, as it smells too much like a national ID card, and many citizens are adverse to that. In Illinois, our former governor (now impeached and awaiting prosecution for, among other things, allegedly selling Obama's senate seat) refused to get with this program even tho the Feds threatened to deprive Illinois of a wad of federal money.

 

While the EDL is practical for land and sea border crossings, it is not helpful if one is on a cruise and faces an emergency requiring a flight home.

[chefpammy]

okay, so it's been a while since the new rules went into effect. Anyone had any problems with boarding with just their BC/DL? Also, what about going ashore with just those docs? Any problems?

[cherylandtk]

Many people have reported no delays or problems using the BC/ID as cruise travel docs. There have been two posts about people needing to fly home, one group missed the ship and had to get passports (~two weeks on Cozumel, $$$$) and the other was a medical emergency back home (Consul issued a travel authorization letter, ~2 days to get home).

[chefpammy]

so are people able to get off the ship at the ports (Caribbean) without passports?