passenger missing the ship

[Cruise Junky]

PVSA stands for Passenger Vessel Service Act.

 

for more info go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_Vessel_Services_Act_of_1886

 

Total typo on my part, way to early in the morning to be typing. Point was it's not the Jones Act.

[elena7seas]

Just back off the millennium, one of our table mates was late getting back to the ship in San Fran, and was not allowed to board, she was late but the ship was still in dock, she traveled down to Montray, to pick the ship up at its next port, but was not allowed to board again and in fact the ship pack all of her belongings from her cabin and delivered them to her ashore and ended her cruise.

My QUESTION IS IS THIS THE WAY A AMERICAN COMPANY TREATS A USA FEMALE, TRAVELING ALONE, THAT MISSES THE SHIP IN A USA CITY AND CAN NOT GET BACK ON THE SHIP IN A USA TOWN, WHEN THEY COULD HAVE GOT HER BACK ON THE SHIP IN SAN FRAN, SOMETHING IS WRONG SOME WHERE.

 

I was also on this cruise, and the evening of the SF sailaway, I heard from a very experienced Celebrity cruiser who had spoken with the Captain about this issue, that there are several very inflexible rules that governed this particular situation, and Celebrity had no choice but to leave the passenger on shore, due to her very late arrival. I too was told that her belongings would be packed up and shipped to her on shore.

 

The ship waited as long as possible, but with the passenger nowhere in sight, the staff had to remove the gangway in preparation for getting underway. The passenger was significantly late, not just a few minutes late, and the gangway had been stowed by the time she finally arrived. Apparently there is a massive fine to the Cruise Line if a ship stays in port beyond the time stated in her berthing agreement, and the Captain's hands were tied.

 

To be sure about the time the ship left, I just checked the time stamp on the first picture I took as as we started to pull away from the pier in San Francisco, and the time was 5:23 pm. The "All Aboard" deadline was 4:45 pm.

 

However, it is interesting that the note underneath the "All Aboard" posting in Celebrity Today for October 6th (the day we left San Francisco) reads:

 

"Important Note: If you do not return before the departure time, it is your responsibility to make arrangements to rejoin the ship."

 

This same note is posted under the "All Aboard" time for every US port from Seattle on, which would lead one to believe that reboarding the ship after you have missed a sailaway is, in fact, possible. I have no specific information about why this was not an option for the woman in question.

 

According to the information I was given, it is the PVSA that prevents Celebrity from allowing the passenger to debark in one US port and re-embark in another US port.

 

This same cruise had another issue with late arrivals for the sailaway from Astoria, Oregon, but the particular circumstances in that case permitted the ship to wait 45 minutes for the return of an excursion of 38 people who had been held up for over an hour by an overturned truck. In the meantime, another couple who were over 30 minutes late for departure sauntered in, grinning and waving as if they did not have a care in the world. It was lucky they were not late in San Francisco.

 

The staff on the Millennium was marvelous. I don't doubt for an instant that they did everything possible for the woman, under the particular circumstances, but sometimes one's options are limited by stringent rules and regulations.

[misterbuds]

However, it is interesting that the note underneath the "All Aboard" posting in Celebrity Today for October 6th (the day we left San Francisco) reads:

 

"Important Note: If you do not return before the departure time, it is your responsibility to make arrangements to rejoin the ship."

 

This same note is posted under the "All Aboard" time for every US port from Seattle on, which would lead one to believe that reboarding the ship after you have missed a sailaway is, in fact, possible. I have no specific information about why this was not an option for the woman in question.

 

According to the information I was given, it is the PVSA that prevents Celebrity from allowing the passenger to debark in one US port and re-embark in another US port.

 

 

We also noticed this note stated clearly every day in the daily as well. It was very misleading if you in fact wouldn't have been able to get back on if you had missed the ship. My husband and I mentioned this after we had heard about the woman missing the ship.

[Germancruiser]

They couldn´t wait- thats what I get from the story, that is, so fare, to agree. What I don´t get, is the fact that she was not able rejoin the ship in the next port!? Therefore must have been something else in the story. Something they ( X- cruises) ddidn´t want to discuss in public.

Male or female- well whats the difference for the ship to wait or not??? Why thread a female different??? Well we are in the first decade of the 21th. Century. LOL!

Michael

[Moeve]

I don't think the law is "antiquated." This same law is what prohibits foreign airlines from conducting flights from one U.S. city to another (this protects the U.S. airlines from foreign competition). A foreign airline can fly from say London to New York, but it cannot sell tickets for a New York to Miami flight. While its application to cruise lines is debatable (Royal Caribbean and Carnival Corp. sure would like people to see it as an antiquated law), the law in and of itself still serves a useful, viable purpose in other areas. Even within the cruise industry it would be important if a U.S. company were to become a big player in the cruise industry (though currently labor laws, liability issue and tax laws make this unfeasible).

 

Excuse me Gonzo but you missed open skies - US Airline are afforded this privilage in Europe a whole TWO years before the US even has to think about allowing EU airline the same!!

 

That is protectionissm something if the US is guilty of it not a big deal but if another country does it to the US then it is a HUGE drama!!

[readytocruise2009]

Didn't someone say the exception is when you start at a US Port and the next port is also US ?

[smeyer418]

Didn't someone say the exception is when you start at a US Port and the next port is also US ?

 

I am not sure but NCL did many cruises from NY to Florida before going anywhere foreign(like the Bahamas) No one could meet the ship in Florida(except crew) if they missed the boat in NY. and anyone permanently getting off in Florida had to pay the $300 fine fee to the cruise line. It never went to a distant foreign port only the Bahamas which are a nearby foreign port.

 

This is not about to change. Its not a big deal for the cruise lines. They really don't see themselves as transportation between different ports but as a cruise that brings you back and forth. The exceptions would be in Alaska where they can get around this merely by starting in Canada or Hawaii where it is an issue with only one US flagged(although not US built) ship cruising.

 

Remember this rule also keeps local tug boats and barges etc American flagged and built...and I don't think either buisness(the shipyards) or the US union want it to change.

[CaribbeanBound]

I've seen late arrivals board at sea, after leaving the dock but while still in the harbor. The passengers took a water taxi (ferry) to the ship and boarded down below. This was in Tortola.

[If only]

When we went to Hawaii & back out of LA on the way back we had to stop in Ensenda, Mexico not to let anyone off only for the Jones Act.

It is only about that act & the fine the cruise ship would have to pay if disobeyed.

[Cruise Junky]

Isn't this the wine cruise? Vancouver to LA? she got off in San Fran. If she got back on in Monteray, she'd be doing a Monteray to LA cruise...Against the rules of the PVSA.

[Degreasy]

I would like to hear from the person this happened to not the table mate. If the person it happened to isn't worried about it why is the table mate?:eek:

[c-legs]

Didn't someone say the exception is when you start at a US Port and the next port is also US ?

Hi,

 

This particular cruise started in VANCOUVER, Canada. So, it;s beyond the grasp of the PVSA's restrictions.

The reason why passenger was offloaded in such an unequivocal manner has to do with conditions and behaviours relating to her and this specific voyage.

Without knowledge of THOSE criteriae, there isn't a thing we can say with authority about THIS particular incident.

Cheers

[The ships cat]

as posted on another thread,

 

would it not be an idea if on the celebrity newsletter they printed how many passengers had missed the ship from the previous port, this may make people realise that "time and tide....." etc.

[smeyer418]

Hi,

 

This particular cruise started in VANCOUVER, Canada. So, it;s beyond the grasp of the PVSA's restrictions.

The reason why passenger was offloaded in such an unequivocal manner has to do with conditions and behaviours relating to her and this specific voyage.

Without knowledge of THOSE criteriae, there isn't a thing we can say with authority about THIS particular incident.

Cheers

there would be no fine for getting off in SF but if she got back on at the next port which was a US port and the final port was a US port that would be subject to the fine(as the person was transported between two different US ports)

[claridge]

There is one other thing that puzzles me is , last year on our Alaska cruise, again one of our table mates missed the ship in Ketchikan, but was allowed to rejoin the ship two days later in Astoria, is it one rule for one one rule for all .

 

Claridge

[6502programmer]

Without being there, it's very difficult to say what exactly happened. A captain is well within his rights to leave a passenger behind who is late getting to the ship for any reason, especially considering the fees for not leaving the dock (think what your parking ticket looks like when the meter runs out--now multiply that by how much bigger a ship is than your car!) by the stated time. There is no obligation to catch the passenger up to the ship (in a smaller boat), especially because SOMEBODY has to pay for that.

 

Under the PVSA, passengers must be back on the ship before it leaves port, or the ship's owner has to pay a fine per passenger. If a person gets on at another US port, the law has been violated. If you are polite, admit your mistake, and pay up (if asked--I suspect if a cruise-sponsored shore excursion went amuck, they would probably eat the cost), the captain MAY allow you to reboard their vessel, but is by no means required to. If you do not play nice, do not pay up, or do not behave as one would in a situation where one has ZERO bargaining power at all and is at the mercy of others, you take your chances.

 

That being said, there ARE exemptions for the PVSA. Specifically, if the violation was not willfully committed, was the result of an act of nature, the vessel was in distress, or other safety or humanitarian concerns, the fine can be mitigated. This would require the ship's owner to take it up with CBP, who is responsible for enforcement and can grant the relief. There is NO WAY they will go to bat for one person's $300 fine.

[smeyer418]

 

Under the PVSA, passengers must be back on the ship before it leaves port, or the ship's owner has to pay a fine per passenger. If a person gets on at another US port, the law has been violated. ....

That being said, there ARE exemptions for the PVSA. Specifically, if the violation was not willfully committed, was the result of an act of nature, the vessel was in distress, or other safety or humanitarian concerns, the fine can be mitigated. This would require the ship's owner to take it up with CBP, who is responsible for enforcement and can grant the relief. There is NO WAY they will go to bat for one person's $300 fine.

 

1. this ship started in Canada there is no PVSA fine for getting off in SF.

2. CBP or the Coast Guard who hears these cases are very hard on the companies and individuals. Not willful is not normally enough it has to be a dire emergency. NCL missed going to Kiribati about half the time. Mostly because of medical emergencies(mostly) or engine problems. they were still fined over a $1,000,000.

[6502programmer]

1. this ship started in Canada there is no PVSA fine for getting off in SF.

2. CBP or the Coast Guard who hears these cases are very hard on the companies and individuals. Not willful is not normally enough it has to be a dire emergency. NCL missed going to Kiribati about half the time. Mostly because of medical emergencies(mostly) or engine problems. they were still fined over a $1,000,000.

Willful is subject to interpretation. Unless you cut the motor and let the sea take you into port, anything you do can be construed as willful, and even then, by cutting the motor, you're intending to allow chance to take its course, so even that is willful.

 

There is a violation, according to interpretation. Carnival escaped fines in 2004 from cruises that started in one us port (new orleans) and ended in a different one (gulfport and mobile) when a barge collision caused the river opening (and the port at new orleans) to be closed. CBP mitigated those fines, but CCL had to file an appeal to have the fines overturned on the cruises that departed from gulfport and mobile and returned to new orleans after the port was opened. CBP changed their procedures to mitigate fines when the Coast Guard forces the closure of a port. It would be like having to sue the city for ticketing your car being at an expired meter when they had closed the street and not allowed you access to put money into the meter before it expired.

 

What it means for this story is that by getting on in Monterey, going to Catalina, and getting off in LA, she would have been transported between US ports, regardless of where her stuff or the ship came from or went to. That and CBP does not take kindly to any shenanigans when it comes to PVSA, and even in cases where any rational person would provide relief without being asked, it takes a lot of time and effort (and by extension, money) to get it set right.

[c-legs]

there would be no fine for getting off in SF but if she got back on at the next port which was a US port and the final port was a US port that would be subject to the fine(as the person was transported between two different US ports)

 

Which is probably and likely why she didnot object to get off at SFO and call it a day.:rolleyes:...rather than pay a justified fine to catch-up at the next port of call ( which I beleive was Monterey....)

Cheers

[hcat]

Did not get through the entire thread-- sorry for that but we are obsessive about arriving back to the ship on time..have often seen people running to get on in time!

 

I did did want to note that poeple are being denied boarding by airlines if they do not show up during the requisite pre-boarding period. met smeone in Rome airport who arrived too late due to traffic . Even though the plane was late & departed several hrs later they could not board..spent the night in the airport--bags & all... & cost alot to re-book for the next day...

[Nickycar]

Two points -

 

1) She was late - end of statement.

 

2) Should she be treated differently because she was female? If women want to be treated as equals, they should be expected to be treated as equals.

 

Go ahead - flame me.

 

DON

 

Hey Don - I agree wholeheartedly!! Whilst being a female and enjoy being treated as a lady I agree that there is one policy which should be adhered to no matter the age, colour, gender or creed! So I will not be 'flaming' you.

[land lover]

I am all to familiar with the PVSA and the $300. penalty...as my friend who I was sailing with last year became sea sick and decided to leave the ship in San Diego.

 

We were on a 4 day out of San Pedro..she paid the fine before leaving the ship.

[hajekfam]

There is one other thing that puzzles me is , last year on our Alaska cruise, again one of our table mates missed the ship in Ketchikan, but was allowed to rejoin the ship two days later in Astoria, is it one rule for one one rule for all .

 

Claridge

What was the point of embarkation and debarkation for the cruise? Was it in the US or Canada?