Magic Transatlantic?

[Cuizer2]

If I could I would retract my post, as it was in error, to a point! Someone had posted that a repo could not be done from NYC to the Magic's new homeport, without going to South America, or some 'foreign' port.. :eek: And NO, the Magic won't be going to the West Coast..

 

My point was that they can, with a stop in Bermuda...:) Or am I wrong again!!?? :o

 

After John Heald post his thoughts in a week or two, this thread will all be for naught! ;) Lets not argue; it's almost Valentine's Day.. XXXX

 

You were never wrong. All I said was I didn't see the point you were trying to make. I never said you were wrong.

 

Any cruise between two US ports must stop at a distant foreign port. Any round trip cruise that stops at any port must include at least one foreign port. For the purposes of the PVSA, US territories are treated as foreign ports.

 

So, to move a ship from NYC to Miami, with passengers, would require a stop at a distant foreign port. I believe Aruba is the closest port that qualifies as a distant foreign port. However, the ship could go from NYC to San Juan, as San Juan is treated as a foreign port by the PVSA.

 

Of course the ship is coming from Europe, so if the passengers do not disembark in NYC, but continue on to Miami, then that would be okay, just as long as no new passengers (crew excepted) board in NYC. The other choice is to sail the ship without any passengers from NYC to Miami.

 

AND all of this is just an example. I have no knowledge of where the Magic will be home ported.

 

Also, now I see the point you were trying to make.

 

Also, the ship could stop in NYC. Disembark passengers, pick up new passengers and continue to San Juan. Then disembark any passengers that boarded in NYC and then go from San Juan to Miami. This would be possible because the PVSA treats San Juan as a foreign port.

[stlrboo]

I'm in 'way over my head' here... :eek: From what I've seen and heard (and we all know that gets us in trouble), I was under the impression that a repo could happen from NYC to say MIA, if a stop in Bermuda occurred.. Apparently San Juan is OK, but then that makes no sense to me either.. :o

 

I'm sorry I got involved..!! :( I'll be following along just to try to understand it all! Thanx..:D

 

ps: I'd still like to do the Fall 2011 TA on the Magic, and hopefully the repo (if its available)..

[jimbo5544]

I'm in 'way over my head' here... :eek: From what I've seen and heard (and we all know that gets us in trouble), I was under the impression that a repo could happen from NYC to say MIA, if a stop in Bermuda occurred.. Apparently San Juan is OK, but then that makes no sense to me either.. :o

 

I'm sorry I got involved..!! :( I'll be following along just to try to understand it all! Thanx..:D

 

ps: I'd still like to do the Fall 2011 TA on the Magic, and hopefully the repo (if its available)..

I can relate.....the rules are confusing at best. A trip to Hawaii starts in Ensenada, while not a stop (it's a start it certainly is not far). Same for Spirit out of Seattle next year, it stops in British Columbia, not far. SO I am with you. That being said, I am trying to remember whether the Dream when it went from nyc to Canaveral had people on it.

[jimbo5544]

Irregardless, it's a stupid outdated law.:confused:

[stlrboo]

That being said, I am trying to remember whether the Dream when it went from nyc to Canaveral had people on it.

Would seem like a wasted trip, if not! :eek: Usually the repo's can be had for a lot less $$$ than a 'normal' sailing, so I have been watching for an interesting one in 2011... :)

 

It would be absolutely wonderful, if I could combine it with a TA, which is usually quite inexpensive itself, considering the number of 'days at sea'..! :) Sea Days are my absolute favorite.. :D

[firefly333]

John Heald just wrote this as a reply to someones question regarding a TA and US Homeport for the Magic:

 

In the coming weeks we will be announcing the trans-Atlantic cruise information which will coincide with details on her North American home port.

 

of course didnt John say it would be weeks ... back last August or some time really long ago?

[yst347]

So, to move a ship from NYC to Miami, with passengers, would require a stop at a distant foreign port. I believe Aruba is the closest port that qualifies as a distant foreign port. However, the ship could go from NYC to San Juan, as San Juan is treated as a foreign port by the PVSA.

 

Also, now I see the point you were trying to make.

 

Also, the ship could stop in NYC. Disembark passengers, pick up new passengers and continue to San Juan. Then disembark any passengers that boarded in NYC and then go from San Juan to Miami. This would be possible because the PVSA treats San Juan as a foreign port.

 

A foreign flagged vessel can carry passengers between mainland USA ports and Puerto Rico as long as no American flagged vessels are offering the service. Ports in Puerto Rico are not treated like foreign ports nor distant foreign ports, they are in a category unto themselves.

 

A foreign flagged vessel wanting to reposition from home porting in New York to home porting in Florida can sail empty directly to the new port or carry passengers compliant with the PVSA. This can only be done in one itinerary by stopping at a distant foreign port. The nearest distant foreign ports on the Atlantic side of the North/South American land masses are ports in South America including the islands off the Venezuelan coast that are part of that nation or Aruba, Bonaire and Curacao.

 

If the cruise line wanted to do two itineraries it could sail a ship from New York to San Juan stopping anywhere along the way or making no other stops at all but I suspect that no stops would be a difficult itinerary to sell. All passengers would have to disembark in San Juan and a new set of passengers embark for the next itinerary to Florida as booking a b2b would be considered a violation of the PVSA as it would be considered passage from New York to Florida without a stop at a distant foreign port.

 

Of course the second leg could call on Aruba, Bonaire, Curacao, Margarita, Cartagena etc. enroute to Florida. That would allow b2b cruises and sounds like an exciting itinerary but why bother with the first leg from New York to San Juan? It is the distant foreign port that m akes the one way between mainland ports ok, not Puerto Rico. (or the USVI)

[Sargent_Schultz]

It would seem less expensive to add the fine to the cost of the cruise from NYC to the homeport of New Orleans.

 

or just bribe congress for a one time exemption. It has been done before.

 

For that matter, cruise lines violated the act a number of times when Mexico was closed to cruise ships and nobody was fined.

 

Carnival Dream did a 2 day repo, sailing empty.

 

Personally, I don't see the TA going to NYC - too much hassle. Surely the naming ceremony will take place in Europe this time. Delaying it for a few sailings was one thing for Carnival Dream - postponing it for a season is another.

[yst347]

It would seem less expensive to add the fine to the cost of the cruise from NYC to the homeport of New Orleans.

 

or just bribe congress for a one time exemption. It has been done before.

 

For that matter, cruise lines violated the act a number of times when Mexico was closed to cruise ships and nobody was fined.

 

Carnival Dream did a 2 day repo, sailing empty.

 

Personally, I don't see the TA going to NYC - too much hassle. Surely the naming ceremony will take place in Europe this time. Delaying it for a few sailings was one thing for Carnival Dream - postponing it for a season is another.

 

I'd be interested in reading the link to where Congress admits to taking bribes. :D

 

The cruise lines were granted exemptions for a number of good reasons. Firefly's Conquest cruise during Ike is one example. The swine flu cruises are another.

 

The TA could go to New York but I doubt it will. the reason is obvious, it will go to its new home port or it will go to an intermediate home port where it will sail a series of cruises. New York in winter doesn't fit the criteria.

[Sargent_Schultz]

Actually they would have to pay off the union, too, and then everything would be golden.

 

Not sure there was any exemption granted for the swine flu fiasco - the cruise lines just did it - didn't have much of a choice. If Congress did anything, it would have been retroactive.

[yst347]

The feds could have assessed the fine but they didn't. It is in their discretion to do so.

[Cuizer2]

I'm in 'way over my head' here... :eek: From what I've seen and heard (and we all know that gets us in trouble), I was under the impression that a repo could happen from NYC to say MIA, if a stop in Bermuda occurred.. Apparently San Juan is OK, but then that makes no sense to me either.. :o

 

I'm sorry I got involved..!! :( I'll be following along just to try to understand it all! Thanx..:D

 

ps: I'd still like to do the Fall 2011 TA on the Magic, and hopefully the repo (if its available)..

 

The PVSA basically says that a foreign flagged ship may not transport passengers between two US cities (a repo cruise). There are some exceptions.

 

1) Since San Juan is considered a foreign port under the PVSA, a ship can transport passengers between NYC and San Juan, because under the PVSA San Juan is treated as a foreign port. The exception to this is if there is a US flagged ship providing this service. Well there isn't, so that is not a problem.

 

2) A foreign flagged ship can transport passengers between two US cities if the ship stops at a DISTANT foreign port. There are no distant foreign ports in North or Central America. Most of the Caribbean islands are also not considered DISTANT foreign ports. However, the ABC islands; Aruba, Bonaire and Curaçao, are considered distant foreign ports.

 

This is why all cruises between Florida and the west coast stop in either one of the ABC islands or in South American (Cartagena).

 

So, a ship sailing from NYC to Miami has to go to a distant foreign port before it disembarks passengers from NYC in Miami. Or, the ship could go to San Juan and disembark all of the passengers from NYC. Then pick up new passengers in San Juan and go to Miami. This would be okay because San Juan is treated as a foreign port under the PVSA. If any of the NYC passengers stayed on the ship and disembarked in Miami, the ship would be fined $300 per person because while San Juan is treated as a foreign port, it is not treated as a distant foreign port.

 

A ship could also go from NYC to Bermuda and discharge all of its NYC passengers. Then take on new passengers and proceed to Miami.

 

However, a ship could not go from NYC to Bermuda and then Miami with the NYC passengers because that would be transporting passengers between two US ports (NYC and Miami) without a stop in a distant foreign port (Bermuda is a foreign port, but it is not a distant foreign port).

[yst347]

1) Since San Juan is considered a foreign port under the PVSA, a ship can transport passengers between NYC and San Juan, because under the PVSA San Juan is treated as a foreign port. The exception to this is if there is a US flagged ship providing this service. Well there isn't, so that is not a problem.

 

This is nonsense. Puerto Rican ports are in their own category. It matters.

 

© An exception to the prohibition in

this section is the transportation of passengers

between ports in Puerto Rico and other ports in

the U.S. on passenger vessels not qualified to

engage in the coastwise trade. Such transportation

is permitted until there is a finding under 46 U.S.C. 289c

that a qualified U.S.-flag passenger vessel is available

for such service.

 

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2005/aprqtr/pdf/19cfr4.80a.pdf

 

Puerto Rican ports are not and never have been treated as foreign ports, near foreign ports or distant foreign ports under the PVSA. I can see why so many here are confused by the PVSA though, crap like the above post.

[Cuizer2]

It would seem less expensive to add the fine to the cost of the cruise from NYC to the homeport of New Orleans.

 

Such an act would be a major crime and could result in the ship being banned from ANY US port.

 

or just bribe congress for a one time exemption. It has been done before.

 

Name one time that it was done before. You are just making this up.

 

For that matter, cruise lines violated the act a number of times when Mexico was closed to cruise ships and nobody was fined.

 

The ships went to Canada. Canada is a foreign port. Since it was a round trip cruise, all that was needed was one stop in a foreign port.

 

Carnival Dream did a 2 day repo, sailing empty.

 

If no passengers are being transported, then there is no violation of the PVSA.

[Cuizer2]

Actually they would have to pay off the union, too, and then everything would be golden.

 

Not sure there was any exemption granted for the swine flu fiasco - the cruise lines just did it - didn't have much of a choice. If Congress did anything, it would have been retroactive.

 

The feds could have assessed the fine but they didn't. It is in their discretion to do so.

 

There was no violation, and thus no fine to assess. The ships made a stop in Canada (either Vancouver or Victoria). Since it was a closed loop cruise (leaving and returning to Los Angeles) all that was needed was a stop in a foreign port.

[yst347]

How long will you continue this disinformation campaign? Cruises to nowhere do not stop in foreign ports yet they do not violate the law? What are you saying?

 

Cuizer...."cruises must stop in foreign ports, unless they don't" :rolleyes:

[yst347]

There was no violation, and thus no fine to assess. The ships made a stop in Canada (either Vancouver or Victoria). Since it was a closed loop cruise (leaving and returning to Los Angeles) all that was needed was a stop in a foreign port.

 

The Splendor didn't. When did Canada annex San Francisco?

[Cuizer2]

Any foreign ship on any cruise involving a US port, whether it be the embarkation port, the debarkation port, an in-transit port, any combination of the two, or all three, MUST stop at at least one foreign port. The only exception would be a CTN (cruise to nowhere). Now that foreign port might be the origination port (for example a cruise from Vancouver to Seattle). But all the foreign ships have to stop at at least one foreign port (again, except for a CTN).

 

How long will you continue this disinformation campaign? Cruises to nowhere do not stop in foreign ports yet they do not violate the law? What are you saying?

 

Cuizer...."cruises must stop in foreign ports, unless they don't" :rolleyes:

 

I said that a CTN did not require a stop in a foreign port.

[yst347]

I said that a CTN did not require a stop in a foreign port.

 

Like I said above.....Cuizer "cruises must stop in foreign ports, unless they don't"

[Cuizer2]

The Splendor didn't. When did Canada annex San Francisco?

 

The Splendor made at least one stop in Canada each cruise ...

 

Ports: Our first port was Astoria Oregon. The itinerary was cut by three hours and I can’t say that I was disappointed. It was a quaint little town but it is a port that I would say that “I have been there done that”. It is beautiful but not much to do. The weather while we were there was a bit overcast but no rain. We pretty much just walked around for a bit and then went back on the ship. Our second port was Victoria. I really enjoyed Victoria. We were in port with Pacific Princess and the Mariner of the Seas. We took the shuttle to the main part of the town and spent the day. The line to get onto the shuttle was a bit long. We went to the IMAX and did the tour at the government building. We did a lot of walking. We even went back on the ship for dinner and went back out after dinner. We had a great time. I found it very beautiful but my DBF found it old. Our last port was Vancouver, we had a great time there but did not feel we had a lot of time to do all that we wanted to do. We did the hop on hop off with Sightline. We did the aquarium and Stanley Park. While we were at the aquarium we saw the beluga whale that was born just four days prior to our arrival. We also went to Granville Island. The weather was absolutely beautiful. We could have gotten away with wearing shorts.

http://www.cruisecritic.com/memberreviews/memberreview.cfm?EntryID=55990

 

Ports of Call

 

The first port was Astoria, and Disembarkation was a mess. There were really only a few hours to enjoy this port…and an hour was spent waiting in cramped hallways of the ship, just trying to get off! It was a nice little town…but there was precious little time to enjoy it.

 

The second port of call was Victoria. There was no line to get off the ship, and all day to visit. We used the public transit system which was very easy to use. The bus drivers were all very friendly, and more than happy to help us out. In fact…on one transfer (at the terminal) The bus driver actually got off the bus, and led a group of us across a busy intersection, to show us where to get on the next bus. We had Canadian Currency, but American Currency was accepted on the busses, and paper currency was not an issue. We visited Butchart Gardens (a bit pricey, but a must if you have never visited!) and the Castle (really, just an old mansion). We also enjoyed a nice walk in downtown.

 

Vancouver was also an easy port to visit. We exited the terminal and took the Sea Bus to North Vancouver. From that terminal there was a bus straight up to Grouse Mountain, and Capilano Suspension Bridge. We enjoyed our excursions there, and then made it back to town in time to visit China Town, and Gas Town.

http://www.cruisecritic.com/memberreviews/memberreview.cfm?EntryID=55847

 

This will be a short review. Needless to say, we were bummed that we weren't going to Mexico and contemplated cancelling, but we just wanted to get on the ship so badly. Boy, are we glad that we did.

...

I could have done without Astoria, but Vancouver and Victoria were breath-taking. I'd go on that itinerary again, although I would rather see either SF or Seattle as stops instead of Astoria.

http://www.cruisecritic.com/memberreviews/memberreview.cfm?EntryID=60370

 

Victoria and Vancouver were great ports, and we did our own thing… in Vancouver we got a city transit pass $9 and went to the suspension bridge for a very scenic retreat to the Tempered Rain Forest and crossed a 300 ft gorge (something not offered as a shore excursion). Victoria was a great city to walk, toured the government building (free), walked along the bay and viewed local artist works, went to China Town and even stopped in a local pub. Astoria… well we walked off the ship, looked around for 15 minutes and got back on, the weather was WET, and didn’t see anything to our liking.

http://www.cruisecritic.com/memberreviews/memberreview.cfm?EntryID=55791

 

Our first call to port was in Astoria Oregon. When we first got off the ship it was cold and windy with light rain, however it

did clear up and become nice. We went to the Maritime Museum, which was the best museum of that nature I've ever visited, and I highly recommend. Astoria is a nice old (small) town rich in history, with very friendly locals.

 

Victoria was beautiful! While in Victoria we enjoyed visiting Miniature World, the Royal Tour in our private horse drawn carriage with Victoria carriage Tours (Tom is a great guy), Butchart Gardens and the IMAX Theater. Downtown Victoria has a lot of options for tourists. Everything we did with exception to Butchart Gardens was located in the downtown grid.

To visit Butchart Gardens at our own pace we rented a car. Driving in Canada seemed easy. The drive to the gardens was scenic. Locals were friendly and helpful.

 

Vancouver was also nice, but not as nice to drive in, too much traffic.

http://www.cruisecritic.com/memberreviews/memberreview.cfm?EntryID=55488

[yst347]

We were discussing the cruises at sea when the flu hit...the ones that technically violated the PVSA. You really need to follow the conversation or see your eye doctor.

 

Our cruise was supposed to visit the Mexican Riviera. Our scheduled ports of call were, Puerto Vallarta, Mazatlan, and Cabo San Lucas. On our 2nd day of the cruise the Swine Flu outbreak hit. As a result our scheduled ports of call were canceled. We had to stop over in Cabo for a medical emergency. So we were teased with the beautiful scenery and other vacationers enjoying themselves. Carnival was unable to secure another warm weather port for the remainder of cruise. The decision was made to head for San Francisco. This upset a vast number of the passengers. Many were from Northern California and had no desire to spend their vacation so close to home. They were allowed to disemark the ship early at a stop in Long Beach before we continued north. This caused us to be late getting into San Francisco. To make matters worse it was pouring down rain for the entire day. No one was prepared for this kind of weather and lacked the proper clothing. Being from Oregon my group made the best of it and visited an aquarium, fisherman's warf and took a trolley ride to the other side of the city and back. The ship was beautiful but some of the decorations felt like they were a bit much. There was not much access to get to the outside decks. The staff as always was wonderful. Carnival at first did not offer any compensation for the cancelation of our ports. But a few weeks after we were home we received a voucher for 50% of our next cruise. So there was a silver lining to this storm cloud of a cruise.

 

http://www.cruisecritic.com/memberreviews/memberreview.cfm?EntryID=59743

[Cuizer2]

We were discussing the cruises at sea when the flu hit...the ones that technically violated the PVSA. You really need to follow the conversation or see your eye doctor.

 

 

 

http://www.cruisecritic.com/memberreviews/memberreview.cfm?EntryID=59743

 

That cruise made a stop in Mexico ...

 

Our cruise was supposed to visit the Mexican Riviera. Our scheduled ports of call were, Puerto Vallarta, Mazatlan, and Cabo San Lucas. On our 2nd day of the cruise the Swine Flu outbreak hit. As a result our scheduled ports of call were canceled. We had to stop over in Cabo for a medical emergency. So we were teased with the beautiful scenery and other vacationers enjoying themselves. Carnival was unable to secure another warm weather port for the remainder of cruise. The decision was made to head for San Francisco. This upset a vast number of the passengers. Many were from Northern California and had no desire to spend their vacation so close to home. They were allowed to disemark the ship early at a stop in Long Beach before we continued north. This caused us to be late getting into San Francisco. To make matters worse it was pouring down rain for the entire day. No one was prepared for this kind of weather and lacked the proper clothing. Being from Oregon my group made the best of it and visited an aquarium, fisherman's warf and took a trolley ride to the other side of the city and back. The ship was beautiful but some of the decorations felt like they were a bit much. There was not much access to get to the outside decks. The staff as always was wonderful. Carnival at first did not offer any compensation for the cancelation of our ports. But a few weeks after we were home we received a voucher for 50% of our next cruise. So there was a silver lining to this storm cloud of a cruise.

 

Why don't you read what you are posting before you stick your foot in your mouth.

[yst347]

That cruise made a stop in Mexico ...

 

Our cruise was supposed to visit the Mexican Riviera. Our scheduled ports of call were, Puerto Vallarta, Mazatlan, and Cabo San Lucas. On our 2nd day of the cruise the Swine Flu outbreak hit. As a result our scheduled ports of call were canceled. We had to stop over in Cabo for a medical emergency. So we were teased with the beautiful scenery and other vacationers enjoying themselves. Carnival was unable to secure another warm weather port for the remainder of cruise. The decision was made to head for San Francisco. This upset a vast number of the passengers. Many were from Northern California and had no desire to spend their vacation so close to home. They were allowed to disemark the ship early at a stop in Long Beach before we continued north. This caused us to be late getting into San Francisco. To make matters worse it was pouring down rain for the entire day. No one was prepared for this kind of weather and lacked the proper clothing. Being from Oregon my group made the best of it and visited an aquarium, fisherman's warf and took a trolley ride to the other side of the city and back. The ship was beautiful but some of the decorations felt like they were a bit much. There was not much access to get to the outside decks. The staff as always was wonderful. Carnival at first did not offer any compensation for the cancelation of our ports. But a few weeks after we were home we received a voucher for 50% of our next cruise. So there was a silver lining to this storm cloud of a cruise.

 

Why don't you read what you are posting before you stick your foot in your mouth.

 

Please......the ship anchored off Cabo; no passengers were allowed off. Since my foot is so far down my throat please give me a link to the law that exempts cruises to nowhere.

[Cuizer2]

Please......the ship anchored off Cabo; no passengers were allowed off. Since my foot is so far down my throat please give me a link to the law that exempts cruises to nowhere.

 

The stop in Cabo satisfied the requirement of the PVSA. Many of the cruises that went round trip to Hawaii used to make a service stop in Ensenada. No one was allowed off the ship. That was enough to satisfy the requirement of the PVSA.

 

The requirements of the PVSA is that if the ship stops at any port, at least one must be a foreign port. CNT does not stop at any port, thus it does not violate the PVSA.

[Cuizer2]

Please......the ship anchored off Cabo; no passengers were allowed off. Since my foot is so far down my throat please give me a link to the law that exempts cruises to nowhere.

 

Indeed, in a 10-page document supporting the CBP, NCL America referenced in particular its issue with ships that stopped in a foreign port like Ensenada en route to Hawaii just long enough to get a proverbial passport stamp -- "as little as an hour, late at night, under circumstances where passengers are not permitted to get off the ship" -- for all intents and purposes, providing cruisers with an all-U.S. itinerary, putting NCL America's ships at a disadvantage because they are subject to U.S. taxes and labor laws.

 

http://www.cruisecritic.com/news/news.cfm?ID=2397

 

NCL tried to get the above changed. The change that NCL wanted to make was not made. All that is needed to satisfy the PVSA is stop. There is no requirement that passengers be allowed off. If you knew as much about the PVSA as you think you do, you would have know this.