Missing school, your thoughts

[kitty9]

One thing to consider, beyond whether it's "right " or not because it's ultimately YOUR decision only and the opinions of others shouldn't matter one iota. BUT, you need to know the rules of your state/school system. Some don't allow vacations as excused absences and if that's the case, no make up work is allowed and F's will be given. That could severely impact students, especially older kids when grades are terribly important.

 

But, now school systems may move to fine for truancy, and unexcused absences could be considered truant. One system has announced that they will level $500 fines per day. If this works, you can bet you'll see other systems will follow suit. The reason for this is, because of drastic funding cuts, schools need every kid in school to get their money. Less kids means less money.

[chrisc71]

Saving a few hundred bucks on a vacation or heck, even a thousand or two, is not worth missing school. Dealing with lower crowds is not worth missing school (travel lots before they're school age and then once they're in college when the academic year is shorter.) .[/quote)

 

When you are where you are in life a couple of thousand may not be a lot to you but to some it is a big chuck of change.

 

As most posters have written if the children are doing well missing a few days is not going to hurt. And waiting until college? A lot happens in 15 or 20 years from when children can travel on ships and go to college.

[FrancescaH]

I was quite concerned about this issue when my son was approaching K. In our case, it became a non-issue as our son was determined ADHD and Asperger's during pre-K and I refused to medicate him for problems 5% of the time for the sake of a teacher. Instead we have homeschooled so we do 180 official days of book learning and my hardest decision is if I want to bring any of his work with us to give him some quiet time, or just do a project and not consider it official school days. In your case, I think the big concern has to be the local school policy and consequences for truancy if they don't excuse it.

[bus man]

I was quite concerned about this issue when my son was approaching K. In our case, it became a non-issue as our son was determined ADHD and Asperger's during pre-K and I refused to medicate him for problems 5% of the time for the sake of a teacher. Instead we have homeschooled so we do 180 official days of book learning and my hardest decision is if I want to bring any of his work with us to give him some quiet time, or just do a project and not consider it official school days. In your case, I think the big concern has to be the local school policy and consequences for truancy if they don't excuse it.

 

We don't homeschool, but I can certainly see some benefits to it . . . and one of them is the flexibility to arrange your schooling and social schedules according to your own needs, not that of the state educational system.

[98Charlie]

I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree. My husband has a PhD. I have an MD. We have known each other since middle school and so are well aware of how our families have grown up and how we were each raised. Education was always always always the priority. I do not believe we would be where we are without that attitude instilled in us by our parents. There are only 180 school days a year in the US. That leaves half of the year to spend doing whatever else you want as a family.

 

Saving a few hundred bucks on a vacation or heck, even a thousand or two, is not worth missing school. Dealing with lower crowds is not worth missing school (travel lots before they're school age and then once they're in college when the academic year is shorter.) It's not even always an issue of if they can make the work up or not fall behind. I believe it just sends the wrong message. I strongly believe this is type of attitude why the average American student is falling further and further behind their international counterparts in many other countries.

 

We do have children though not of school age yet. We have already agreed that we will not be pulling them out of school for vacations.

 

And when your kids get to school age you will discover that those 180 days of mandatory school days goes by very quickly and so does the rest of the year when the kids are on break. blink twice between the day the kids get out of school and the day they go back to school and the summer is over.

 

Somewhere between the end of school and the beginning of the new school year you have to pack in family time, kids baseball, soccer and softball season; have the kids home in August to start football practice and marching band. That's after the kids have played their baseball season that often lasts through July or later.

 

Then there's the school activity jaunts like French Club, Spanish Club, or whatever club that plans week-long trips to wherever and the fund raising meetings a parent has to attend to ensure their child can experience the ``educational experience'' of each project, program, etc. that their involved in. Not much of summer vacation is left for quality family time.

 

What part of the non-school vacation time I've just mentioned should we cut out in our children's lives? Cut out the sports? Their school oriented trips? Music camp? Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts, 4-H Club work?

 

It's commendable that you have agreed not to pull your children out of school for vacations even though you say your children are not yet of school age.

 

Would be interesting to hear your thoughts when your children get to middle-, high-school and beyond.

 

Somewhere along the rout of raising children and seeing them grow up and fly from the nest comes an awakening that there is never enough days in a year to spend with the kids, teach them everything we want them to know and let them experience the real world outside their own home.

 

Not everyone can take a summer vacation due to work schedules, costs, etc. But every parent can afford to spend quality time with their children, whether that time is on a cruise ship, a camp ground or in their back yard toasting marshmallows.

 

DH is not a PHD and I have no degree at all, but as parents we learned how to make every outing an educational experience, vacations during school time and weekend jaunts in the summer. Our 3 children always tested out at the top of their classes even though they missed some school days for vacations.

 

They tested out at the top because they knew more geography and history information then others in their classes, mainly because they had been there, learned it and came back to their school knowing what they had learned.

 

That's something your're really not going to remember for life by reading a book. But when you experience it, it kind of sticks with you.:D

 

Dianne

[Northerncheapo]

I am a teacher. If I can give you one piece of advice? Please tell the teacher in September that you plan on taking X week off. And, if at all possible, if you can plan your trip around the time when report cards are issued instead of just prior to report cards issued this is helpfull.

 

Why?

 

For all the planning in the world, stuff happens in the classroom that results in getting behind in some areas of the curriculum. A million reasons why, no teacher is immune to it. IF a teacher knows well in advance that a child is going to be missing two weeks in November, for example, and it appears that the class is getting behind in October, the teacher can make adjustments to the schedule. One year I was dropped the bomb that little Sally was not going to be in class for the next two weeks. I was told the Friday prior. Well, I hadn't gotten to teaching a specific strand in math and that entire strand was being covered in those two weeks she was gone. AND it was right before report cards when ALL teachers are frantically cramming as much curriculum possible in a day. I was unable to teach her or assess her and had to write that on her report card, "Due to absences assessments were not made".

 

Regarding making reports for the class about the trip and all that. Great idea and I also had kids do that and the rest of the class enjoyed it. However, remember, this is work that cannot be assessed because it was done outside of the classroom (and cannot be verified who did it). You can assess the presentation to a degree, but nothing else is valid. I'm speaking from an elementary level view point.

 

Also, expecting the teacher to prepare a week or two weeks worth of assignments ahead of time is not fair to the teacher and s/he will likely just give 'busy work' like a journal, depending on grade.

 

With that said, I pulled both my teenagers out of school for a week (tacked onto the end of March Break) to go to Australia. Principal refused to give us permission, we went anyway. Son failed a course because he could never catch up from 1 week away in the semester system. Ooops.

 

Short answer: Elementary grades 1-5, go. Highschool, I'd think twice.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Anita

[98Charlie]

With that said, I pulled both my teenagers out of school for a week (tacked onto the end of March Break) to go to Australia. Principal refused to give us permission, we went anyway. Son failed a course because he could never catch up from 1 week away in the semester system. Ooops.

 

Short answer: Elementary grades 1-5, go. Highschool, I'd think twice.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Anita

 

Anita, did your son who ``failed'' a course in high school due to the vacation learn anything outside of what he would have learned in the classroom while you were on vacation?

 

Dianne

[peacebeach]

My parents used to pull me out of class for family trips, and I remember one teacher telling my parents that I would learn a lot more out on the road then in the classroom. True as ever.

 

:)

[Northerncheapo]

Dianne, Yes I think he did learn from the trip...he is a certified SCUBA diver and got to dive the reef, he got to see the rainforest first hand, and he got to experience Ayers Rock. The first thing he did when we got to the hotel was fill the sink with water and tear little flower peddles into the water. Then he pulled the plug to watch the drain 'backwards' LOL.

 

This is exactly why we went against the principals request that we did not pull him out. And, let's be clear here...my son failed because he is a lazy unmotivated dumb a$$. Flame away, my friends.

 

Anita

[khm1]

Your question about a cruise being educational makes me recall an experience while cruising with my kids.

 

My two DSs were about 7 and 9 years old. It was their 2nd cruise. We were on an excursion called "Land and sea" or something of that nature. We stopped for a stroll through a fishing village in St. Lucia. The houses were all made of wood and very small. Most were only one room. Many did not have electricity or running water. Most had out-houses behind them. All of the houses were scrupulously clean and well maintained. All had the front doors open to the ocean breezes. The local kids were playing in the street (dirt road) with a soccer ball, having a great time.

 

When we got back on the bus, my younger DS turned to me and said "Mom, where are their TVs?" I explained to him that many people on the island did not have TVs. He thought about this and said "But Mom, What do they DO?" I explained that you do not need a television or hand-held games to be entertained or to be happy. This prompted a barrage of questions about how people in other parts of the world live. Later, there was a discussion at the dinner table that night about how lucky my boys felt to be lucky enough to have the life that they have.

 

Educational? You bet! I don't know any other way that they would have understood this concept, at such a young age, other than travel. They still talk about that moment almost ten years later.

 

I don't regret for a minute taking them out of school for family vacations. I have only done it a handful of times and it was worth it every time. My boys are both going to be in high school this fall and we plan on a summer cruise next year. It is just too hard now between athletics and school. I do plan, however to take DD-4 out of school for vacations a few times as long as it is feasible. It is a choice that is right for our family.

 

Do what you feel is right for your family. The fact that you are asking the question shows me that you are a responsible parent.

[croozymooner]

 

It's commendable that you have agreed not to pull your children out of school for vacations even though you say your children are not yet of school age.

 

Would be interesting to hear your thoughts when your children get to middle-, high-school and beyond.

 

Somewhere along the rout of raising children and seeing them grow up and fly from the nest comes an awakening that there is never enough days in a year to spend with the kids, teach them everything we want them to know and let them experience the real world outside their own home.

 

 

Dianne

 

My husband and I were never pulled out of school for vacations. I don't think it will be hard doing the same with our children, but yes, I do understand I don't have school age kids yet, so we will see.

 

Yes, I understand what you mean by they basically grow up fast. I had children during residency when I was working 80 hours a week and it was very hard feeling like I was missing out on their growing up sometimes. But that is the level of sacrifice and commitment and work ethic I have, that my patients deserve, and that we want to instill in our children. That's just how we live life. Thankfully, my husband's research is very flexible and he can often work from home and we have grandparents in town so we don't even need a nanny like most of my colleagues. That initial sacrifice has now allowed us to have enough money and a bit more vacation time so that we can vacation without having to search the off season for rock bottom prices like we used to.

 

There is something to be said for experiencing things first hand and not just reading about it in a book. I completely agree. I personally don't think cruising the caribbean really counts as an once in a lifetime educational opportunity not to be missed.

 

If a teacher told me that my child would learn more by taking a one week family cruise rather than being in their classroom, I would yank my kid out of that class so fast. That's why American schools, especially though by no means exclusively, public schools are so awful relative to their international counterparts. (No I was not born in the US but moved here in elementary school)

[chipmaster]

All the more reason to stand up to your values, saving for a couple years and not let your standards down is what values, hardwork and sacrfice are all about ;) Its all too easy to cave in. Isn't that why people ask here? They know what is right, what is along the slippery slope and come here to get support for where to stop on the slippery slope.

 

In the end everyone has to chose their values and make the compromises. Believe it or not I have my standards because my parents sacrficed everything to make education a priority, one of the reasons I'm luck enough to not have to make compromise and can suck it up and pay to go when I do is because of what they instilled in me. I work hard to insure my kids while soo much more fortunant than me will have the same values. I never look back and because I didn't do anything because of money or other excuse regret, I only look at how those sacrifices are so valuable and important in forming my and hopefully my childrens values, they are pretty smart and pick up on all these little cues!

 

I didn't get to Europe till I was 30, didn't take my first cruise till I was 36. My kids for better or worse been to places before they were even "in" formal school that I didn't get to till my 30s and 40s. I really hope to keep that value system so my grandchildren continue it no matter the financials. I would NEVER take them out of school for a vacation, but that is me. I got here because my parents NEVER did either not because it hampered my education, because school was so great, or the trip was less educational or that family time was better. Is family time on a vacation better than family time sitting around the table for dinner every day and game / movie time togather at home? It was because values and priorities are the priorityes, but again thats me.

 

Ducking and covering again :D

 

Saving a few hundred bucks on a vacation or heck, even a thousand or two, is not worth missing school. Dealing with lower crowds is not worth missing school (travel lots before they're school age and then once they're in college when the academic year is shorter.) .[/quote)

 

When you are where you are in life a couple of thousand may not be a lot to you but to some it is a big chuck of change.

 

As most posters have written if the children are doing well missing a few days is not going to hurt. And waiting until college? A lot happens in 15 or 20 years from when children can travel on ships and go to college.

[GatorMomInNC]

I'm very lucky that my kids are in a year round school, so we have 3 week vacations 4 times a year - in September, December, March and June. I love it because I can travel off season when it is cheaper, less crowded and not HOT (I hate the summer and the heat). I am taking them on their 3rd cruise in less than a year in September - a 14 night transatlantic.

 

But I would definitely pull them out of school if we were in a traditional school. In my opinion the value of school is highly overrated. I missed at least 30 days a year of school growing up - not to travel but because I was so bored I'd rather stay home and read a book. The first thing I found out in college and grad school was whether the teacher took attendance so that I could just show up on test days if they didn't. In my experience 75% of school time is repetitive, boring work. Then the teachers send homework home so that we parents can waste our time going over stuff with our kids that they already did in school. BTW, I come from a family with 2 teachers, and I respect teachers, but that is just the nature of an education system with 20-30 kids of different academic levels in one class. The kids probably spend about 2 hours actually learning, and the rest of the time is sitting and waiting or moving from class to class. If you yank your kids out they don't miss anything you can't teach them one-on-one in 30 minutes a day on your vacation.

[6rugrats]

This is exactly why we went against the principals request that we did not pull him out. And, let's be clear here...my son failed because he is a lazy unmotivated dumb a$$. Flame away, my friends.

 

Anita

 

Flame? I want to award you a metal! It is a pleasure not to read yet another tedious post from an uberparent about their "wonder" child/ren.

[Cuizer2]

I would very much like to hear your opinions on the appropriateness of taking children out of school to go on a cruise vacation. Is this OK? Educational? Important for family time? Good or bad role modeling? Does it matter where one is cruising or what you do with the time?

 

It is one of the many decisions a parent must make. If the parents are comfortable taking the kids out of school for a family vacation then it is fine. If the parents are not comfortable taking the kids out of school for a family vacation, then that is also fine.

[Sea and Me]

As I read through these posts I thought of when our children were younger (they range now from 46-36) and when we took them out of school in Sept. to a vacation at the beach. My husbands work schedule only permitted that time of the year. Their teachers didn't hesitate to give them permission. They were all in grade school at that time. They had work to do to keep up with the lessons for the week missed. They still remember that beach vacation.

We now schedule our family vacations as soon as the children are out of school for the summer. Why?? They have softball, baseball, and swimming meets. Would the parents consider taking their children out of school for a vacation?? I would have to ask and I'm sure with four families I would get different answers. An educator is among the mix.

Family time is important. Quality time spent with the family is more important. Children remember the time spent with them weather vacation or being at home. Children grow up in the blink of an eye and then you find yourself a grandparent!! This job is wonderful:)

Have a good day.

Carol

[chipmaster]

Well said, believe it or not times I most treasure with my kids are the daily dinners we have togather in summer, trips to the local pool, and when in school when I drove them every day in the morning.

 

...

 

Quality time spent with the family is more important. Children remember the time spent with them weather vacation or being at home. Children grow up in the blink of an eye and then you find yourself a grandparent!! This job is wonderful:)

 

Have a good day.

Carol

[chrisc71]

I have to ask those that are against. Did you do well because your parents were involved in your education and not so much whether they pulled you out of school for an activity?

 

I believe that children's success in school has more to do with the parent's involvement than the school or being in school for that matter (not condoning mass absences;)). I was fortunate enough to attend a private high school and there were plenty of kids there not learning and usually those were the same that had absent parents, whether they worked all the time or other issues.

 

Parental involvement gets ignored because your cannot question parents ever. My brother works in the schools and he hears all the time parents complaining to the teacher "Why did you fail my child?"; like it is the teacher's fault the child did not do the work. Hysterical.

 

Again it all comes down to what you think is right.

[blitznbobs]

I will be happy to take my children out of school for vacations (when they're old enough). I care enough about their education to pay for private education when, I am told, that state education is good... And I spent 2 hours (in short bursts) today (Sunday and raining) teaching my 2 1/2 year old to hold a pen and start his writing education - I have no doubt he will come out of school with every opportunity to pursue any career he wishes. BUT

 

I don't see why a week here and there makes any difference to a child's education. As a teenager I was sick more than I was well, and had at least one day off every week -- Often a month at a time when admitted to hospital -- I still came out of school with top grades in all my subjects and went on to do a medical degree... Kids that are bright cope whatever. Kids that aren't fail acedemically - whatever, it's only a few kids in the middle that it may or may not make a difference to... if my children are in that group then I won't take them out - if they're not then I'll take them out as I please - I'd rather have lots of happy memories of visiting the world than not have those memories...

 

For me school is about passing exams, parents are for life education.

[lddam]

I say go for it! Especially when they are young! As a teacher, I would never hold it against a student/parent/family for missing school to participate in any type of family-oriented trip.

 

As I parent, it is unlikely I'll ever do it only because I can't "pull" myself out of school!

 

And as a retired teacher, I disagree with the sentiments stated above. Children miss enough school due to legitimate reasons such as illness, Dr.'s appointments, bereavement, etc. In my former district, taking days off for family vacations were considered illegal absences, and in the secondary schools, when a certain number were reached, the child failed the course. And, in my opinion, rightly so. The school year is 186 +/- days long leaving 179 days for family bonding, informal "educational" travel, etc. If it can't be done during that time, then it shouldn't be done. In terms of societal responsibility, your child has one obligation...to attend school. Your responsibility as a parent is to ensure that your child fulfills that obligation to the greatest extent possible. It's one aspect character building. Imagine the message it sends a child when he/she extrapolates your attitude that formal educational responsibilities play second fiddle to a family vacation.

 

I was more than happy to provide students with work prior to, or an opportunity to make up work following, a legal absence. For longer illnesses, I would either home tutor or provide curricular materials to a home-school teacher. However, I refused to provide any materials for illegal absences, and made that policy known to parents at our first orientation meeting of the new school year. It was district policy that I was under no obligation to do so, and I exercised that option for each and every illegal absence without exception. If parents pulled their child out of my class, they did so knowing of the consequences.

[Cuizer2]

And as a retired teacher, I disagree with the sentiments stated above. Children miss enough school due to legitimate reasons such as illness, Dr.'s appointments, bereavement, etc. In my former district, taking days off for family vacations were considered illegal absences, and in the secondary schools, when a certain number were reached, the child failed the course. And, in my opinion, rightly so. The school year is 186 +/- days long leaving 179 days for family bonding, informal "educational" travel, etc. If it can't be done during that time, then it shouldn't be done. In terms of societal responsibility, your child has one obligation...to attend school.

 

Really - that is the child's only responsibility? I for one am happy someone with such a narrow view view of life is retired.

[Travelin'4]

I just booked our family cruise for the end of Jan. so, no, I do not have a problem taking my kids out of school. Our school district also does not have a strict abscense policy. Kids miss for vacation quite often in our school. My kids have great attendance and are excellent students. If these factors were different we would not take them out.

[lddam]

Really - that is the child's only responsibility? I for one am happy someone with such a narrow view view of life is retired.

 

Gee, I never thought of myself as having a narrow "view view" of life, and if my retirement has made you happy, then I am pleased that I brought some good into this world for at least one person.

 

Speaking of being narrow minded, if you go back and re-read my post, you will note that I said in terms of a responsibility to society, he/she has one "obligation" and that it is the responsibility of parents to ensure that the child fulfills that obligation. I did not think it necessary to state the obvious that children need opportunity to develop a sense of responsibility inherent in other circumstances such as household chores, promises made to others, etc. These types of responsibilities, however, are subordinate to the primary obligation of attending school while in session. "Obligation" here having the connotation of moral or ethical responsibility and expediency to a higher purpose.

 

A fundamental concept of any society is that if one is to reap the benefits of membership in a society, one must also be willing to accept the responsibilities as well. In effect, it's a give and take relationship, and an understanding of that relationship, for children, develops over time through repetition and reinforcement. For a parent to pull a child out of school for a vacation sabotages that concept and developmental process. Instead, it indicates to the child that fulfillment of an obligation is required only when it is convenient to do so.

 

Now, to my way of thinking...that's a narrow view of life.

[chrisc71]

Instead, it indicates to the child that fulfillment of an obligation is required only when it is convenient to do so.

 

Except the issue here is cost. If it is not viable when they are not in school that does not fit the definition of convenient. And I know the next response is usually "tough then do not go"; is hardly the realistic answer.

 

Isn't the greater obligation that the child actually do the school work and pass? Just being in the school building is not the only part of the obligation.

 

I do not see anyone who supports the idea saying the child does not have to do any work while away; quite the contrary. All seem to write that if the child does not miss work and is getting good grades where is the harm? At the end of the day the obligation of getting the work done is accomplished; the where is sort of secondary.

[Onessa]

There are only 180 school days a year in the US. That leaves half of the year to spend doing whatever else you want as a family.

 

Saving a few hundred bucks on a vacation or heck, even a thousand or two, is not worth missing school. Dealing with lower crowds is not worth missing school . . .

For many of us the money is not a concern or at least not the primary concern. You are fortunate that your DH's schedule is flexible and that you have extended family who can also help raise your children. DH and I really don't have flexibility as to when we can take off. We also have responsibility to care "for" some extended family.

. . . Yes, I understand what you mean by they basically grow up fast. I had children during residency when I was working 80 hours a week and it was very hard feeling like I was missing out on their growing up sometimes. But that is the level of sacrifice and commitment and work ethic I have, that my patients deserve, and that we want to instill in our children. That's just how we live life.

So what happened to the other "half" of the year that we should all have to spend with our families? Sounds like in your life, you too have issues that arise that make you make difficult decisions - what's more important career or family? Patients or husband? -- that's life, nothing wrong with that.

 

My point is everyone needs to make those decisions for themselves. What is wrong with the American educational system has little to do with any family's hard thought-through decision as to whether to take a vacation in July versus November. What ails the US educational system has much more to do with people who are not thinking about what the consequences of their actions are. Most of the parents on this thread are parents who are thinking out what will work best for their family.

 

There is something to be said for experiencing things first hand and not just reading about it in a book. I completely agree. I personally don't think cruising the caribbean really counts as an once in a lifetime educational opportunity not to be missed.

 

If a teacher told me that my child would learn more by taking a one week family cruise rather than being in their classroom, I would yank my kid out of that class so fast.

When my DD's sixth grade Social Studies teacher heard we'd be in Rome and Athens during the time period the class was studying ancient civilizations she did say exactly that she'd learn more by being there than by reading it in a text. DD's reading teacher re-arranged her entire class plan, having the class read The Thief Lord when we were IN Venice, rather than two weeks before. A well planned, thought out vacation can be educational. Time spent as a family is priceless. The lesson that if you hunker down, do some extra work, and plan ahead that all that hard work and planning can be rewarding is also good. If DD did not appreciate the travels and experiences they afforded her, if she did not complete her work for the time we are gone, if she did not plan this out -- she would not reap the rewards. We'd all be staying home!

 

Your responsibility as a parent is to ensure that your child fulfills that obligation to the greatest extent possible. It's one aspect character building. Imagine the message it sends a child when he/she extrapolates your attitude that formal educational responsibilities play second fiddle to a family vacation.

 

I was more than happy to provide students with work prior to, or an opportunity to make up work following, a legal absence. For longer illnesses, I would either home tutor or provide curricular materials to a home-school teacher. However, I refused to provide any materials for illegal absences, and made that policy known to parents at our first orientation meeting of the new school year. It was district policy that I was under no obligation to do so, and I exercised that option for each and every illegal absence without exception. If parents pulled their child out of my class, they did so knowing of the consequences.

 

. . . taking days off for family vacations were considered illegal absences . . .

They are not considered "illegal" absenses in our district nor in our state.

 

. . .leaving 179 days for family bonding, informal "educational" travel, etc. If it can't be done during that time, then it shouldn't be done. . . .

I'm hoping that you don't mean that! Family bonding "should" be done. I think most would agree that family bonding is important. If schooling was the "only" obligation our children have, we as a society would have no problem forcing everyone to just bundle up their kids when they hit a certain age and warehouse them in some institutional educational faciitlies. Anyone that suggests that formal educational responsibilities are the most important factor in the development of a child's character has a seriously skewed idea of what is important. I too am happy that this poster is no longer subjecting our children to such mean-spirited attitudes. The students cannot really control if their parents pull them out of school -- if a parent pulls their child out of school, should the teacher punish the student for his/her parents' actions? I thought the teacher's goal was to teach the student, not teach the student's parents a lesson?