Novovirus - Inevitable?

[CountessP]

I want to thank all for the info and statisics provided on this thread. They are all worth considering for anyone who cruises.

 

I think it''s worth noting that it is in the best interest of the crew to assure a clean ship. They live on these ships in quarters far more enclosed than ours. Imagine a massive outbreak in the crew quarters. It would be a disaster on so many levels. No doubt they have learned how to contain this type of outbreak by using all of the precautions stated on this thread, and have done a better job of it that the passengers!

 

I also think the fact that they are, by a large percentage, far younger than the passengers, is something to consider. You are at more risk of getting this virus if you are older, as older generally have a more compromised immune system than younger. We also tend to get sloppier as we get older, sometimes because everything is more difficult, and sometimes just out of sheer habit or oversight.

 

So the bottom line is enjoy your cruise. but limit use of public restrooms, carry a tissue in your pocket to use for elevator buttons, banisters, and serving utensils for food in buffet lines. And be considerate. Have another tissue that you use when coughing or sneezing.

It's a bit of a challenge and you have to be very self aware, but I think it's important enough that if we all keep the idea of universal precautions at the front of our minds, we can have a very enjoyable, safe, and healthy cruising experience.

[ldubs]

I have spent 1437 CRUISES - not DAYS - on cruise ships.

I have supervised clean-up of so many NLV outbreaks that I have lost count.

I always wash my hands - very frequently and very thoroughly.

I keep my hands out of my mouth, nose, and eyes.

I do not use hand sanitizing gels. They do not prevent viral contamination.

I never shake hands with anyone.

I never eat in buffets.

I never use public toilets.

I have visited many cabins where the occupants were very ill with NLV.

I have wheeled sick passengers down the gangway on countless occasions.

I have personally confronted many sick passengers who refused to be isolated.

I have visited many public areas to supervise clean-up where sick passengers have vomited.

 

I have never had Norwalk Virus.

 

The item in bold has me scratching my head here. If you, an expert with 1,400+ cruises, does not use the hand gel, then why are the dispensers there and why does cruise staff require that we use them before entering the dining areas?

[BruceMuzz]

The item in bold has me scratching my head here. If you, an expert with 1,400+ cruises, does not use the hand gel, then why are the dispensers there and why does cruise staff require that we use them before entering the dining areas?

 

The dispensers are there because:

1. The cruise lines believe that when dealing with many people raised by wolves (who do not wash anything, ever), it's better than nothing.

2. The dispensers are a visible reminder to at least try to be clean.

3. Our legal department and our PR people - who typically live in an alternate universe - believe that having the dispensers visible and actively promoted gives the impression that we are trying to force our passengers to be clean.

 

The reality is that the chemicals in the dispensers are very bad for your hands.

The chemicals do have some minor effect on viruses, but only when the "wet contact time" is extended over 2 or 3 minutes. How many passengers - or crew - squirt enough of the sanitizer on to keep it wet for 2 or 3 minutes? The answer is NONE.

My colleagues at CDC also claim that the sanitizers give people a false sense of security. After using the sanitizer only, they believe that their hands are clean (they are not), and it is safe to put those hands in places like mouths, noses, and eyes (it is not).

 

Those small chemical dispensers are even worse. Many people keep them in their pockets - one of the dirtiest places in the world. When they reach into their pockets to get the dispenser out, their hands get dirtier. Then they handle the dirty dispenser while sanitizing their hands, completely defeating the process. Finally they use their questionably clean hands to put the dirty dispenser back into their contaminated pockets, ensuring that their hands are once again contaminated.

 

1400 cruises does not make me an expert on anything. It just means I have more information than most people.

You forgot to bold one very important item. I have not used the hand sanitizers (for over 3 decades) AND HAVE NEVER HAD NLV, despite being directly exposed countless times.

Edited February 3, 2014 by BruceMuzz

[dkjretired]

The dispensers are there because:

1. The cruise lines believe that when dealing with many people raised by wolves (who do not wash anything, ever), it's better than nothing.

2. The dispensers are a visible reminder to at least try to be clean.

3. Our legal department and our PR people - who typically live in an alternate universe - believe that having the dispensers visible and actively promoted gives the impression that we are trying to force our passengers to be clean.

 

The reality is that the chemicals in the dispensers are very bad for your hands.

The chemicals do have some minor effect on viruses, but only when the "wet contact time" is extended over 2 or 3 minutes. How many passengers - or crew - squirt enough of the sanitizer on to keep it wet for 2 or 3 minutes? The answer is NONE.

My colleagues at CDC also claim that the sanitizers give people a false sense of security. After using the sanitizer only, they believe that their hands are clean (they are not), and it is safe to put those hands in places like mouths, noses, and eyes (it is not).

 

Those small chemical dispensers are even worse. Many people keep them in their pockets - one of the dirtiest places in the world. When they reach into their pockets to get the dispenser out, their hands get dirtier. Then they handle the dirty dispenser while sanitizing their hands, completely defeating the process. Finally they use their questionably clean hands to put the dirty dispenser back into their contaminated pockets, ensuring that their hands are once again contaminated.

 

1400 cruises does not make me an expert on anything. It just means I have more information than most people.

You forgot to bold one very important item. I have not used the hand sanitizers (for over 3 decades) AND HAVE NEVER HAD NLV, despite being directly exposed countless times.

 

Also,keep in mind that some of us have negative reactions to the sanitizers, I break out from them.

[sail7seas]

Many brands of those sanitizers are brutal on manicures. The wreck nail polish. :p

Edited February 3, 2014 by sail7seas

[SPacificbound]

The geriatric set on HAL needs to learn to wash their hands. Yuk. :p

 

That was a completely unnecessary comment!

[homeschoolmama]

How about the young parents who take their kids in the pool with diapers or swim diapers. Neither hold stuff in. Only benefit of swim diapers is they don't bloat up with water. THEY DO NOT STOP POOP FROM GETTING IN THE POOL . Before fingers are pointed at one group, like the elderly, all groups better take responsibility for their choices and actions. EVERYONE , young and old has that responsibility. And not just on ships, but planes, hotels, restaurants, schools and at home!

 

Sent from my SCH-I915 using Forums mobile app

[sail7seas]

The geriatric set on HAL needs to learn to wash their hands. Yuk. :p

 

 

Awful.

Certainly adds nothing productive to the conversation.

I'm sorry I had to read this.

[ldubs]

Awful.

Certainly adds nothing productive to the conversation.

I'm sorry I had to read this.

 

There are several comments in this thread that are way over the top, IMO.

[Sherlock43031]

The geriatric set on HAL needs to learn to wash their hands. Yuk. :p

 

I'm always amazed by folks who know how often other people wash their hands. If I'm in a public restroom and some fool is standing around watching to see if I wash my hands or not. I would report them to security,

[navybankerteacher]

Wash your hands frequently and well, avoid re contaminating by immediately touching faucets or rest rom door handles with bare hands, keep hands away from face.

 

Not guaranteed to secure you against infection, but absolutely certain to reduce the chances.

 

It has worked for me on over twenty cruises - even if I do get it some day, I will continue the practice.

[PennyAgain]

I recently attended a large business meeting in the USA that lasted 6 days from arrival to departure. Noro virus ran through the meeting like a bad dream.

 

The last day of the meeting I wasn't feeling well and felt very tired. I got very sick on the drive home.

 

I doesn't just happen on cruise ships!

[dsrdsrdsr]

I always wash my hands - very frequently and very thoroughly. So do I but only if there's a sink handy. I don't go out of my way.

I keep my hands out of my mouth, nose, and eyes. I don't.

I do not use hand sanitizing gels. I do. They do not prevent viral contamination.

I never shake hands with anyone. I do.

I never eat in buffets. I do.

I never use public toilets. I do.

I have visited many cabins where the occupants were very ill with NLV. I haven't.

I have wheeled sick passengers down the gangway on countless occasions. I haven't.

I have personally confronted many sick passengers who refused to be isolated. I haven't.

I have visited many public areas to supervise clean-up where sick passengers have vomited. I haven't.

 

I have never had Norwalk Virus.

Basically, everything you do, I do the opposite. And I haven't had the virus either. I suppose that each in our own way, we've built up an immunity. Clearly you haven't avoided the virus because you've been dealing with all those sick passengers, but it looks like your body has learned how to not be ill with it.

[BruceMuzz]

Basically, everything you do, I do the opposite. And I haven't had the virus either. I suppose that each in our own way, we've built up an immunity. Clearly you haven't avoided the virus because you've been dealing with all those sick passengers, but it looks like your body has learned how to not be ill with it.

 

There are still many things we do not know about viruses

But we do know that nobody has immunity - unless you have just suffered from that particular strain of a virus, and the immunity is only for that strain, and only for a very limited period of time.

 

The key to staying well is not so much what we do - but what we do not do.

Noroviruses have very limited ways to access our bodies.

If we don't open the door, they cannot get in.

 

You really do not need to wash your hands every other minute - so long as you do not use those hands to contaminate your food or drink, and do not put those hands in your ears, nose, eyes, or mouth.

 

Some people who get the illness were just unlucky; they happened to eat or drink something that was contaminated by another passenger or crewmember, or happened to breathe air that had been contaminated by someone with NLV vomiting and aspirating the spores.

 

Most people who get the illness do so because they are lazy, careless, unclean, or just plain stupid. I am very sorry to say so, but most people who get NLV could have avoided it just by being a bit more careful.

 

Using hand sanitizer instead of washing is not smart. It's lazy.

Using hand sanitizer from a bottle stored in a pocket or purse is really stupid. Pockets and purses are filthy places.

Using the buffet on the first 2 days of any cruise is really pushing your luck. All the sick people were there just before you.

Using public toilets on a ship is just begging to get it. That's where the sick passengers go when they cannot make it back to their cabins. It is also where the people who are too lazy to go back to their cabins - and too lazy to wash their hands - go.

 

Do you ever notice the crew picking up used kleenex tissues that passengers just drop on the floor? It happens hundreds of times every day.

Those crew throw away the contaminated tissues, then have to find a place to wash their contaminated hands. How many things do the crew touch on the way to a hand washing sink?

 

Do you ever notice all the dirty dishes and glasses left just about everywhere by lazy passengers? We find them on staircases, in bathrooms, on every desk and countertop around the ship. Hey, they are on vacation; why should they have to clean up after themselves?

No problem. The crew is quite happy to clean up the mess.

 

But how many of those lazy passengers were ill?

How many things are the cleanup crew going to touch after they have cleared the dirty items and go looking for some place to wash their contaminated hands?

Edited February 4, 2014 by BruceMuzz

[Underwatr]

Bruce, recently Gojo has introduced a new formula of Purell (VF481) which has antiviral properties and has been shown to be effective against Norovirus. On my last cruise I noticed that the Purell that was used onboard was the antiviral formula. Perhaps this wasn't available on your ship(s).

[navybankerteacher]

Bruce, recently Gojo has introduced a new formula of Purell (VF481) which has antiviral properties and has been shown to be effective against Norovirus. On my last cruise I noticed that the Purell that was used onboard was the antiviral formula. Perhaps this wasn't available on your ship(s).

 

VF481 has been shown to be MORE effective against NV than other formulations but - there is a big difference between "being more effective than others"and "being effective".

 

Washing hands remains the MOST effective protection.

[BruceMuzz]

Bruce, recently Gojo has introduced a new formula of Purell (VF481) which has antiviral properties and has been shown to be effective against Norovirus. On my last cruise I noticed that the Purell that was used onboard was the antiviral formula. Perhaps this wasn't available on your ship(s).

 

It is available on my ship - and still has most of the drawbacks of the previous gels.

1. It is very damaging to human skin.

2. Many people are allergic to it.

3. People still use it as a substitute for handwashing, which is far better.

4. The wet contact time for most people is still too short to allow it to be at all effective.

5. There are questions as to how effective it might be - even of used properly.

 

Why don't we all just wash our hands frequently and properly, and get over it?

 

Additionally this new product is incredibly expensive. Washing hands works far better and costs next to nothing.

There are also some claims that the new chemical is carcinogenic. That's why it is not yet approved for import into the USA.

Edited February 4, 2014 by BruceMuzz

[dsrdsrdsr]

There are still many things we do not know about viruses

But we do know that nobody has immunity - unless you have just suffered from that particular strain of a virus, and the immunity is only for that strain, and only for a very limited period of time.

Whether it's my immune system or some other internal function, I'm rarely sick. Maybe luck of the draw, maybe my body's just good at neutralising viruses one way or another.

 

The one thing I've always wondered, sonce I wear a belt. I visit the convenience, then fasten my belt, then wash my hands. My belt is presumably a loaded novo-weapon. Then I leave the room, and at some point hitch up my trousers, so my hands are now novo-full. Then I touch thibgs around the deck. Short of washing my belt several times a day, how can I get round this?

[papcx]

Whether it's my immune system or some other internal function, I'm rarely sick. Maybe luck of the draw, maybe my body's just good at neutralising viruses one way or another.

 

The one thing I've always wondered, sonce I wear a belt. I visit the convenience, then fasten my belt, then wash my hands. My belt is presumably a loaded novo-weapon. Then I leave the room, and at some point hitch up my trousers, so my hands are now novo-full. Then I touch thibgs around the deck. Short of washing my belt several times a day, how can I get round this?

 

 

Braces? :D

Edited February 4, 2014 by papcx

[sail7seas]

Whether it's my immune system or some other internal function, I'm rarely sick. Maybe luck of the draw, maybe my body's just good at neutralising viruses one way or another.

 

The one thing I've always wondered, sonce I wear a belt. I visit the convenience, then fasten my belt, then wash my hands. My belt is presumably a loaded novo-weapon. Then I leave the room, and at some point hitch up my trousers, so my hands are now novo-full. Then I touch thibgs around the deck. Short of washing my belt several times a day, how can I get round this?

 

 

It takes two steps to contract Noro like Virus.

 

You must touch something that is 'dirty'.

You then must use that hand to touch a 'portal' to your system and that usually is ears, nose, eyes or mouth.

 

Keep your hands away from your head/face and do not eat food with your fingers that could be 'dirty'.

 

Use clean utensils.

If you have Noro on your hands but no open wound you touch or other entry spot, you will not get sick.

 

 

[There is some disagreement but many people think Noro like virus can be spread by droplets. If someone with Noro vomits and you breath it in or a productive cough producing 'spray' can spread Noro according to some sources. If that is true and you breathe it in, that's plain bad luck.]

Edited February 4, 2014 by sail7seas

[navybankerteacher]

It takes two steps to contract Noro like Virus.

 

You must touch something that is 'dirty'.

You then must use that hand to touch a 'portal' to your system and that usually is ears, nose, eyes or mouth.

 

Keep your hands away from your head/face and do not eat food with your fingers that could be 'dirty'.

 

Use clean utensils.

If you have Noro on your hands but no open wound you touch or other entry spot, you will not get sick.

 

 

[There is some disagreement but many people think Noro like virus can be spread by droplets. If someone with Noro vomits and you breath it in or a productive cough producing 'spray' can spread Noro according to some sources. If that is true and you breathe it in, that's plain bad luck.]

 

Very good point. The one fortunate thing about Noro is that coughing or sneezing are not common symptoms (they are intestinal with diarrhea or vomiting most common presentations) - this means that there is not the great likelihood of cough-borne ( effectively aerosol) droplets that exists with other infections like the flu.

[dsrdsrdsr]

I'm afraid I'm one of those filthy, disgusting creatures that eats a hamburger in my fingers. Sorry. I know America's filled with people using a knife and fork to eat hamburgers at football matches etc., but I'll not be one of them.

 

And my mother - I don't wish to be critical, but it has to be said - uses her hands to adjust her hearing aids, which she then PUTS INTO HER EARS!!!!! :eek:

 

I really don't know how it is that neither of us have ever had norovirus. But it still doesn't solve my original problem, that my belt is full of norovirus, and so is everyone else's, and by extension everything anyone touches on board is covered in the stuff. Is there any way to prevent it, apart from the obviously horrible one of shuffling from the stall to the wash basin with your trousers still round your ankles (and then what happens about the floor)?

[Gloria Mundi]

I have spent 1437 CRUISES - not DAYS - on cruise ships.

<snip>I always wash my hands - very frequently and very thoroughly.

I keep my hands out of my mouth, nose, and eyes.

I do not use hand sanitizing gels. They do not prevent viral contamination.

I never shake hands with anyone.

I never eat in buffets.

I never use public toilets.

<snip>

I have never had Norwalk Virus.

 

Bruce, thanks for this. My husband and I don't like the idea of taking the big ships but this is good common-sense advice for everyone, everywhere. (Well, except there are times when you gotta go...) My nephew and members of his swim team came down with Norovirus the day before they had an NCAA swim championship. So many swimmers were affected (from different cities) that they delayed the competition for a day. This was the Midwest. No cruise ships involved. They think it was the air travel.

 

Fortunately his team still won since it was his last year of eligibility. :D

Edited February 5, 2014 by Gloria Mundi

[odragon]

I found a new article that Norovirus could happen anywhere, not just on ships...

 

http://www.wfaa.com/news/health/Norovirus-likely-to-blame-for-mass-absences-at-Richardson-High-School-243541021.html