NCL agrees to buy Prestige (Oceana, Regent) for $3B

[njhorseman]

I read all the posts about how great Oceania cruise line is and that the prices are better than NCL etal, but when I GOOGLE Oceania cruise line, I see 2 for 1 sales and 75 percent off.

 

When some of the mainstream cruise lines put out this kind of sales, the boards went viral with comments about them not being able to fill the cabins and that they were going under.

 

Any comments ???

 

Good point.

 

The funniest thing I've read during this NCL/PCH debate is a thread on the Oceania board expressing horror over Oceania's having a contest to give away a free 7 night cruise and pointing to that as a sign of the disaster that is sure to follow under NCL's ownership. This when the PCH cruise lines have always had some of the phoniest "brochure" prices in the industry. A week doesn't go by that I don't get a brochure from them advertising phony 50% discounts on cruise fares, "free" airfare, etc. when not one person on an Oceania or Regent cruise has paid the "full" fare that is the basis for their phony discounts.

[buggins0402]

I read all the posts about how great Oceania cruise line is and that the prices are better than NCL etal, but when I GOOGLE Oceania cruise line, I see 2 for 1 sales and 75 percent off.

 

When some of the mainstream cruise lines put out this kind of sales, the boards went viral with comments about them not being able to fill the cabins and that they were going under.

 

Any comments ???

 

It is just a marketing/pricing thing that the high end cruise lines (including the River Cruise lines) do. Pricing isn't as fluid as the mass markets. Just like Viking River cruises, they are priced 2 for 1 from the get-go as an early booking bonus. I guess if a particular cruise sold like crazy they could remove the early booking bonus.

 

These cruise lines still produce huge brochures....with semiannual updates. In the case of Oceania, if a cruise isn't selling well, they will add more inclusions - OBC, gratuities, and sometimes excursions. Perhaps Travelcat knows how Regent makes their price adjustments....I haven't a clue how they would do it, since most everything is already included.

[Out to sea!]

Last cruised on NCL 18 years ago? Let's see...it wasn't the same ships, the ownership and management of the cruise line was completely different...there was no such thing as freestyle dining...oh and 18 years ago those paint jobs that horrify you didn't exist.

 

How anyone can draw a conclusion about a business or service today based on what it was like 18 years ago is beyond me.

 

Well truthfully, anyone can draw any conclusion they want on any info they want. Of course, using old info or second/third hand info will ensure you come to an incorrect conclusion but for many, that's not a big deal. ;)

[Hawaiidan]

Now this is a hoot! The paint job on an NCL ship was a turn off but Navy gray is okay????

 

BTW, a battle ready US Navy Carrier has over 5,000 sailors on them while at sea, not 3,000.

 

you forget that on the large 3500-4000 ships that there is a crew of some 2400! bringing 6-7000 the total on board... I was also figuring to the tonnage gross side of the ship a carrier is about 95 to 120,000 tons... some of the NCl fleet are close to 280,000 tons + Hence my size comparison

 

And yes id vastly prefer Navy grey to sailing on a floating billboard. ( personal taste..... hey you choose the air force, I choose the Navy)

 

As to making a decision on 18 yearold ; actually now that I think of it 9 year old in Hawaii.

I , using the very same values I described , saw no change in many of them. ., ship size, alone was deal breakers.

Despite changes in management. programs etc there were still enough things that I did not care for. I did not thus need to dig deeper even if the original decision were made 50 years ago. Again that's me not you. I am not you and you are not me.

Hey of you don't like purple cars and one company only makes them in purple, what the sense is looking inside at the interior !

 

Were NCl or anyone come out with a 600 to 700 ft 700 pax adult focused casual ship with a subtle understated design I would investigate. Floating resort spas with lawns and trees just don't do it for me....

[njhorseman]

Drawing a conclusion based on a 9 year old experience is hardly more current than 18 years. And 9 years ago NCL still was not under its current ownership and management. Is an opinion of a restaurant drawn 9 years ago valid if it has a new owner and chef ?

 

If you don't like ships carrying more than 600 or 700 passengers that's fine, but it really has nothing to do with NCL per se, the hull paint job, or what your experience might have been a decade or two ago. You also wouldn't want to cruise on Celebrity or Cunard or anything but a couple of cruise lines that feature the type cruising experience you prefer.

[Hawaiidan]

Drawing a conclusion based on a 9 year old experience is hardly more current than 18 years. And 9 years ago NCL still was not under its current ownership and management. Is an opinion of a restaurant drawn 9 years ago valid if it has a new owner and chef ?

 

If you don't like ships carrying more than 600 or 700 passengers that's fine, but it really has nothing to do with NCL per se, the hull paint job, or what your experience might have been a decade or two ago. You also wouldn't want to cruise on Celebrity or Cunard or anything but a couple of cruise lines that feature the type cruising experience you prefer.

 

 

And no you could not get me on a Cunard or Celebrity, RCCL, Princess or Holland and Crystal ship all because of size,... the NCL color scheme really bothers me..I guess some like it. I also don't like the nickel dime selling and the extra cost dining venues, and I wont get into kids ( hey I am not a child hater...I owned several, just not on ships

NONE of those things have changed in cold hard fact, not opinion in the past 20 years... they remain totally current and valid as of 2014

If they change , cool...but they haven't I frequently meet and talk with others who cruise other lines and they rave... but what they rave on is a turn off to me. Doesn't mean its bad..

Just like Liver...I don't like it doesn't matter how you slice it cook or present it its still liver.... whether I ate it 50 years ago or 12 hours ago..

 

Not liking ships over 1000 has everything to do with NCL as well as all other lines that are over that size monsters. THey just keep building the bigger and bigger with more and more revenue spaces and less and less deck space.( Holland America took the Royal Viking Queen ( once the finest ship afloat) with 750 passengers and slammed in cabins for another 600.)

 

The paint scheme and decor was just frosting on the cake.

[old nutter]

This is fun.

 

Why would NCL want to buy or build small ships of their own when they can buy the company that does but doesn't want to or can't carry on doing it themselves? As for the nickel and diming issue, I much prefer a realistic starting price for the trip and I then buy what I want when I want it rather than paying up front for something others might want but I still have to pay for them to have it. Those who want to sail Prestige should be grateful that a big company with the right credit lines is willing to continue funding the sort of ships they want to sail in.

 

By the way, when I was a kid I can remember having one monochrome TV in the family with one channel that was only on a few hours a day. Now I have several colour ones with hundreds of channels and lots of TV rubbish on them. Fortunately I can still watch some old films and Pathe News occasionally if I want to. Not saying the new TV is better, but it really is difficult to make decisions about what to watch if all I can remember is what it used to look like on huge 9-inch screen black-and-white TV and a little tinny speaker! :p

Edited September 7, 2014 by old nutter

[Travelcat2]

We were on the Oceania Riviera holiday cruise last year. There were 100 kids (and a program for them which many did not bother to attend) and many ladies were dressed to the hilt. Just sayin'.

 

Was this during Christmas vacation? The only time children are seen on Oceania or Regent is during Christmas (in particular), Spring break (2nd highest number of children) and summer. Ladies dressed to the hilt? Sounds like you were on a very unusual cruise. If anything, I think some Oceania passengers should dress up a bit more (I saw overall shorts at 9:30 at night -- looked like the guy belonged on a farm).

 

njhorseman: As I stated on the Oceania board, Oceania and Regent passengers need to get over the shock. The criticism of the colors of NCL, etc. is just our way of venting (although I personally have not commented on this.) In terms of special treatment, having Concierge suites on Oceania or Regent is completely different than having some of the amenities available in the Haven Suites, such as:

 

Poolside Valet- The private pool in The Haven will have a dedicated Valet to provide personalized service, whether it's taking guest's drink orders or providing an extra towel

 

Special Platinum-colored Keycards – To provide enhanced recognition throughout the ship, Haven guests will receive distinctive keycards

 

Exclusive access to The Haven Courtyard with private pool, sundeck, hot tub and fitness area

 

Regent does not have any of these things. Everyone on the ship is welcome everywhere and since keycards are not shown, no one knows what suite you are in which insures that everyone is treated the same (outside of their suite where they do have amenities not available to other passengers).

 

On Oceania, there are a couple of very small lounges available only to Concierge and above and their keycard special. IMO, any ship that is not all-inclusive, when you have to present a keycard, it lets people know what category of stateroom or suite you are in (at least to the servers and bar staff that take your card).

 

KeithJenner: The prices you are referring to (dining in the one expensive dining venue on Oceania that has premium wine pairings) is on Oceania as is the daily cost for the premium wine packages. Obviously this would not apply to Regent as it is all-inclusive.

 

We are looking at three levels of cruising on this thread. NCL - Oceania and Regent. They are not the same by design. I'm not even certain if you can purchase an alcohol package on NCL but if you can, does it include most top shelf alcohol? Not even Azamara, a premium cruise line, includes the quality of alcohol that you find on Oceania. All these are considerations.

 

I just saw the Undercover Boss episode with Kevin Sheehan (saw it originally but watched it again with a different perspective). The ship he was on was the newest at the time (I think it was the Epic). It was an amazing ship. It was hard to believe how many things were going on that ship. The white party (think it as called that) where the person running the party and Kevin Sheehan had to wear white angel wings looked like a lot of fun (for people younger than most Oceania and Regent cruisers). I wouldn't be surprised if NCL puts on some of the best activities at sea.

 

Here is the but.......... this isn't what premium and luxury cruise line passengers are looking for. Most of don't want announcements of the loudspeaker -- do not want to have people around trying to sell things, etc. We prefer quiet, serene calmness with excellent service, good size suites (on Regent) and great food*. It is so good that we will all have choices. And, whichever of the three cruise lines you choose, hopefully you will do research on their website and on Cruise Critic to insure that you have selected the cruise line with the amenities that suit you.

 

*This does not mean that we don't enjoy ourselves with trivia and other games. On itineraries with consecutive sea days, they hold a country fair with booths - crew members dressed up, etc. And, when the ship crosses the equator or sails into the Arctic Circle, there are ceremonies that are comical. However, I doubt if they could compare with the activities on NCL.

 

P.S. njhorseman: you thought that the reaction of the "free" cruise contest on Oceania was surprising....... you should have seen the reaction of Regent passengers when Regent painted one blue stripe on the ship. You would have thought that they dressed the ship up like a clown. For better or worse, some luxury passengers (not all) can be pretty picky:D

Edited September 7, 2014 by Travelcat2

[LHT28]

I read all the posts about how great Oceania cruise line is and that the prices are better than NCL etal, but when I GOOGLE Oceania cruise line, I see 2 for 1 sales and 75 percent off.

 

 

Any comments ???

 

creative marketing

Oceania have had 2 for 1 deals since I started sailing them in 2004

 

still in business & built 2 gorgeous ships IMO ;)

[KeithJenner]

KeithJenner: The prices you are referring to (dining in the one expensive dining venue on Oceania that has premium wine pairings) is on Oceania as is the daily cost for the premium wine packages. Obviously this would not apply to Regent as it is all-inclusive.

 

Wow, the extent to which you missed my point is really quite spectacular.

 

I quite obviously wasn't specifically referring to Oceania or Regent in particular. I was responding to another poster, who I quoted, who claimed that there was a value of $290 for speciality diners. Whether those charges were from Oceania or Regent is absolutely irrelevant. My point is that, as I have never had any inclination to spend anything like that on food on a cruise, the value to me and many others, is nothing like that amount.

 

I'm really not sure what you thought I was saying.

[Hawaiidan]

This is fun.

 

Why would NCL want to buy or build small ships of their own when they can buy the company that does but doesn't want to or can't carry on doing it themselves? Those who want to sail Prestige should be grateful that a big company with the right credit lines is willing to continue funding the sort of ships they want to sail in.

 

:p

 

Nutter... You might consider the Prestige lines are almost constantly booked , and very solvent. Apollo which owns a good Share on NCL realized for NCL to survive it needed a Luxury brand .

Carnival acquired Seabourn and Royal Viking for that reason. Other brands had their entry to luxury brands too. Leaving Crystal and Silver Seas on their own right now.

 

To survive, NCL needed to have the same top level marketing partners as its competitors and since Apollo also was partner in Prestige they really saw the necessity for NCL to reach out. Like it or not, Luxury cruising is the fastest growing/profitable sector going. NCl benefits the most from the deal....

[LHT28]

People find value in different things

some prefer suites while others are happy with an inside cabin

some need a butler some could care less

some prefer all inclusive deals others prefer pay as you go

some prefer larger ships some prefer more intimate ships

 

Only you can decide what works for you & spend your $$ where it gets you what is the best for your wants & needs

 

Some like vanilla ice cream some like rum & raisin

 

Some like Regent some like Oceania & some like NCL

do not try to compare they are all different

 

Pick what works best for you ;)

 

Enjoy

Lyn

Edited September 7, 2014 by LHT28

[KeithJenner]

As to making a decision on 18 yearold ; actually now that I think of it 9 year old in Hawaii.

I , using the very same values I described , saw no change in many of them. ., ship size, alone was deal breakers.

Despite changes in management. programs etc there were still enough things that I did not care for. I did not thus need to dig deeper even if the original decision were made 50 years ago. Again that's me not you. I am not you and you are not me.

Hey of you don't like purple cars and one company only makes them in purple, what the sense is looking inside at the interior !

 

The cruise line that anyone chooses is totally their decision. If someone is happy with their decision then they have made the right decision. I agree with you totally that the fact that your decision may be based on 18 or 9 year old experience is irrelevant. You know what is best for you.

 

It would be a shame though, for someone who has such an outdated experience of NCL to post on these boards, giving their opinion on the line, especially if they have NCL listed in their signature without any indication as to how long ago their experience was.

 

Food is a given. You can part take in the how full can I fill my tray.

Service will be basic...Cabins too basic..

un like Pacheco and others I have seen the Family hideaways and or gardens cabins and they are great...... but on a ship....they are obscene and tasteless on a ship; designed for people who what a Vegas villa and would rather not be on a ship

But that is what NCL designers are famous for garish paint schemes by a decorator experienced in decoration of Tijuana " cat "houses ( my apology to pussy cat owners). Every where outside the cabin you are assaulted relentlessly by bar stewards, and sales pitches and the cheesy cheap decore

 

Inside your cabin your safe... after wading through the reams of the special flyers that show up every day ( did you know that Alaska is the best place to buy pearls?)

I like Don tried Le bistro... and I grade Cracker Barrel and Denny's higher

 

Le bistro.... is nothing to write home about... but it impresses if all you dine out is Appleby's.... and a bottle of 2 buck chuck......but the market demographics they sell to is impressed. Crafting a reward for a different demographic will be much harder to impress

My biggest gripe on NCL is the 24-7 every 4-5 min sales pitch's , that and the hideous paint jobs the paint their ships.....that and 3000 packed people

 

On one hand the ugliest and now the sleekest but as NCL passengers grow and start figuring things out and develop more specific and refined things The new ships will be there to introduce them to the next level

 

Maybe you could get your hair corn-rowed, A tattoo parlor, with piercings and a giant sports bar ...

 

If NCL is anything it is the lowest common demoniator in the industry...Carnival in comparison is like Crystal

 

That sort of thing. :)

Edited September 7, 2014 by KeithJenner

[njhorseman]

People find value in different things

some prefer suites while others are happy with an inside cabin

some need a butler some could care less

some prefer all inclusive deals others prefer pay as you go

some prefer larger ships some prefer more intimate ships

 

Only you can decide what works for you & spend your $$ where it gets you what is the best for your wants & needs

 

Some like vanilla ice cream some like rum & raisin

 

Some like Regent some like Oceania & some like NCL

do not try to compare they are all different

 

Pick what works best for you ;)

 

Enjoy

Lyn

 

I agree 100%.

[Travelcat2]

Wow, the extent to which you missed my point is really quite spectacular.

 

I quite obviously wasn't specifically referring to Oceania or Regent in particular. I was responding to another poster, who I quoted, who claimed that there was a value of $290 for speciality diners. Whether those charges were from Oceania or Regent is absolutely irrelevant. My point is that, as I have never had any inclination to spend anything like that on food on a cruise, the value to me and many others, is nothing like that amount.

 

I'm really not sure what you thought I was saying.

 

Sorry, the amounts you posted were really close to Oceania prices. Oceania gets $60/person per day for their prestige alcohol package. Although their four specialty restaurants are included, there is a special one where the cost for the highest wine pairing dinner is $280. I agree with you in terms of spending a lot of money on food. However, we love using on board credits for things like this dinner. Think I am a bit sensitive to Oceania and Regent and overreacted a bit:o

[buggins0402]

People find value in different things

some prefer suites while others are happy with an inside cabin

some need a butler some could care less

some prefer all inclusive deals others prefer pay as you go

some prefer larger ships some prefer more intimate ships

 

Only you can decide what works for you & spend your $$ where it gets you what is the best for your wants & needs

 

Some like vanilla ice cream some like rum & raisin

 

Some like Regent some like Oceania & some like NCL

do not try to compare they are all different

 

Pick what works best for you ;)

 

Enjoy

Lyn

 

Yes, it's why Marriott and other hotel companies have so many brands.

 

Funny thing, Oceania had always been on my radar after our first cruise (an NCL) because I saw it listed on the bottom of an NCL brochure along with

Star Cruises (probably an Apollo thing and probably pre Regent). Looked Oceania up and the itineraries seemed interesting.

 

We finally got to cruise O this past year...just a Baltic, but it did a point to point 7 day which allowed more time in Stockholm than the NCL 9 day - that sealed the deal. With hotel points, and using the included air (with deviation fees) prices were in the same ballpark.

 

I think the acquisition will find other NCL cruisers who want to stray a bit more from the same old itineraries and seek cruise itineraries that her new sister companies will be doing (although it's nice to see NCL do South America again..and go back to Norway!!)

Edited September 7, 2014 by buggins0402

[Out to sea!]

you forget that on the large 3500-4000 ships that there is a crew of some 2400! bringing 6-7000 the total on board... I was also figuring to the tonnage gross side of the ship a carrier is about 95 to 120,000 tons... some of the NCl fleet are close to 280,000 tons + Hence my size comparison

 

And yes id vastly prefer Navy grey to sailing on a floating billboard. ( personal taste..... hey you choose the air force, I choose the Navy)

 

As to making a decision on 18 yearold ; actually now that I think of it 9 year old in Hawaii.

I , using the very same values I described , saw no change in many of them. ., ship size, alone was deal breakers.

Despite changes in management. programs etc there were still enough things that I did not care for. I did not thus need to dig deeper even if the original decision were made 50 years ago. Again that's me not you. I am not you and you are not me.

Hey of you don't like purple cars and one company only makes them in purple, what the sense is looking inside at the interior !

 

Were NCl or anyone come out with a 600 to 700 ft 700 pax adult focused casual ship with a subtle understated design I would investigate. Floating resort spas with lawns and trees just don't do it for me....

 

I don't know what ships you've sailed but I've never seen a cruise ship that carried 3,000 pax have 2,400 crew......usually 1,200 to 1,500. And nothing in the NCL fleet is even close to 280,000 tons. The largest cruise ship period is the Oasis and Allure OTS from RCCL at 220,000 tons.

 

Yes, Navy vs Air Force is a personal taste but I could never imagine picking OD Green over the artwork on the side of any ship, much less an NCL ship and no ship's artwork would never even be on my radar for deciding what cruise line or ship to sail. But as you stated, you have your reasons for your choices and I have mine and both are okay as long is it makes each of us happy. :)

Edited September 8, 2014 by Out to sea!

[jwitt2]

Was this during Christmas vacation? The only time children are seen on Oceania or Regent is during Christmas (in particular), Spring break (2nd highest number of children) and summer. Ladies dressed to the hilt? Sounds like you were on a very unusual cruise. If anything, I think some Oceania passengers should dress up a bit more (I saw overall shorts at 9:30 at night -- looked like the guy belonged on a farm).

 

Yes, Christmas and New Years. Probably explains the dressing up as well as all of the children. I don't think I would do it again. We picked the ship to get away from kids. Some of them were pretty spoiled and obnoxious. Don't like being in the pool with kids jumping in and splashing.

[KeithJenner]

Sorry, the amounts you posted were really close to Oceania prices. Oceania gets $60/person per day for their prestige alcohol package. Although their four specialty restaurants are included, there is a special one where the cost for the highest wine pairing dinner is $280. I agree with you in terms of spending a lot of money on food. However, we love using on board credits for things like this dinner. Think I am a bit sensitive to Oceania and Regent and overreacted a bit:o

 

 

No problem. It's so easy to misunderstand things on boards.

 

I personally have no views either way on either Oceania or Regent. I like the bigger ships because of the choice they offer, and I have never had a problem with the number of people onboard. Adding in the fact that I like not having too many things included in the fare, so I can choose what I pay for, plus that I have a 9 year old son, it's probably good for everyone that I'm happy to stick with NCL for now. You never know for the future though.

 

Personally, I really hope that all the parts keep their distinct identities, and I think NCL would be stupid to do anything otherwise. We never know though.

 

I have had lots of fun reading the threads on the respective boards though. The predictions of doom on the Oceania and Regent boards make me smile. Not because of the fact that people are concerned, but the reasons they are finding to worry. It's amazing what people will convince themselves is happening when they really want to.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[bob brown]

IIRC, this is not NCL's first foray into acquiring an upscale line....didn't they once own the Orient Line...even prior to Star/Genting acquiring NCL?:confused:

[LHT28]

Yes, Christmas and New Years. Probably explains the dressing up as well as all of the children. I don't think I would do it again. We picked the ship to get away from kids. Some of them were pretty spoiled and obnoxious. Don't like being in the pool with kids jumping in and splashing.

 

Just to say I have not seen more than 8 kids on 1 cruise but as you said it was over the holidays then you will get more along with the Alaska cruises

We avoid the Holiday cruise on Oceania just for that reason

 

Hope you give them another try at another time of the year ...

 

I do not think you will find too many cruise ships over the Christmas holidays that are not packed with kids unless it is one of the adult ships of P & O

 

Lyn

Edited September 8, 2014 by LHT28

[LHT28]

Sorry, the amounts you posted were really close to Oceania prices. Oceania gets $60/person per day for their prestige alcohol package. Although their four specialty restaurants are included, there is a special one where the cost for the highest wine pairing dinner is $280.

 

They have 3 menus to choose from

Choose from three menus consisting of a seven-course gourmet dinner with seven different wine flites; The Explorer and Discovery Menus are $95 per guest* and the Connoisseur Menu is $165 per guest*

[swedish weave]

IIRC, this is not NCL's first foray into acquiring an upscale line....didn't they once own the Orient Line...even prior to Star/Genting acquiring NCL?:confused:

 

NCL owned Orient lines, but I would not consider the Marco Polo a luxury ship or upscale. It was an old Russian double hulled icebreaker that they rebuilt into a cruise ship.

 

Wonderful ship and crew, but it was definitely not a fancy one.

[sparks1093]

Nutter... You might consider the Prestige lines are almost constantly booked , and very solvent. Apollo which owns a good Share on NCL realized for NCL to survive it needed a Luxury brand .

Carnival acquired Seabourn and Royal Viking for that reason. Other brands had their entry to luxury brands too. Leaving Crystal and Silver Seas on their own right now.

 

To survive, NCL needed to have the same top level marketing partners as its competitors and since Apollo also was partner in Prestige they really saw the necessity for NCL to reach out. Like it or not, Luxury cruising is the fastest growing/profitable sector going. NCl benefits the most from the deal....

 

So in other words they can overcharge the Oceania and Regent passengers so NCL passengers can sail for less? Yeah, I'm good with that:D;).

[Hawaiidan]

So in other words they can overcharge the Oceania and Regent passengers so NCL passengers can sail for less? Yeah, I'm good with that:D;).

 

I am glad you believe that the Prestige passengers be paying for the NCL and keeping rates low.

I sounds like a logical deal. ...till you get out the calculator. As I have said before I believed that too. I t seems totally logical to anyone.

 

The reality set in about 10 years ago when I added up everything door to door a ship like NCl on a 10 day cruise from my house to the ship and back. I was astounded totally to discover that total cost was actually the same but in many cases ( like cruises longer than 28 days) lower....and lower by hundreds of dollars a day not a week!!! This applied not only NCl but every other mainstream line as well.

 

The actual reality I calculated is that the mass of profit is going to come from NCL passengers not Prestige passengers. NCL passengers who pay to get the Haven cabins and treatment may too discover that they can have even more of that special experience on a Prestige cruise and maybe for less !

 

NCL now will be able to introduce first time cruisers with wonderful sounding fares, Provide over the years better and better on board experiences and allow for families to partake. Then in the distant future is can offer them a sedate luxury option to relax in as their tastes may mature... all still in the NCl family..... and NCL will have a friendly partner who can offer that who is not a competitor

 

That's what this whole deal is all about when you strip away the brands and the loyalists it is about synergy and growth and eliminating competition.

 

So in reality everyone benefits... from the first timer to the old timeer