Century Gone.....Is It Possible For X To Make Money With Smaller Ships?

[QShip]

With Century sold X now has no ships less than 2000 persons. Is the trend toward ever larger ships inevitable?

 

Personally, I would pay a (slight) premium to be able to sail on a smaller ship that had access to ports the larger ships cannot use. I think the flexibility, ambiance and better itineraries of a smaller ship would make it very appealing and profitable if properly managed. They do not need to compete directly with Crystal, Azamara or Oceana, just offer a product somewhere in-between. I believe it is possible to accomplish, particularly if the ships are designed for the in-between market from the start, with a normal mix of interior, oceanview and other cabins, and not go for 'all suite' or similar luxury features.

 

I wish they would give it a shot.

 

What features and services do you think they should include, yet still be competitive in the in-between market?

 

Are there other lines that do this that I am not aware of?

[Orator]

With Century sold X now has no ships less than 2000 persons. Is the trend toward ever larger ships inevitable?

 

Personally, I would pay a (slight) premium to be able to sail on a smaller ship that had access to ports the larger ships cannot use. I think the flexibility, ambiance and better itineraries of a smaller ship would make it very appealing and profitable if properly managed. They do not need to compete directly with Crystal, Azamara or Oceana, just offer a product somewhere in-between. I believe it is possible to accomplish, particularly if the ships are designed for the in-between market from the start, with a normal mix of interior, oceanview and other cabins, and not go for 'all suite' or similar luxury features.

 

I wish they would give it a shot.

 

What features and services do you think they should include, yet still be competitive in the in-between market?

 

Are there other lines that do this that I am not aware of?

 

Celebrity thought about putting mega bucks into Century, but in the end they determined that the risk wouldn't be worth the reward. Yesterday Richard Fain was on CNBC to promote Quantum, said that margins were more a focus than market share. So the clear corporate answer to your question is "no". There have been many threads asking the same question you posed. I'd simply suggest that any new build, and none has been announced, will be focused on high margin areas such as more top end suites and surcharge dining venues.

[Happy Cruiser 6143]

I think putting mega bucks into Century would be different from doing a new build about the size of the former Mercury. It would be new, for one thing. More fuel efficient. As far as Oceania and Azamara are concerned, those old R class ships are old. I don't care how much they spend on them. The cabins are small.

 

Royal Caribbean is clearly trending to the gigantic ships. Not my thing. I think there's room for Celebrity to do something smaller and different. Already, the S class cannot go to Venice, for example. There are an awful lot of retired or soon-to-be-retired folks out there with money to spend who might be attracted to something a bit different. Me, for example.

 

Just a thought.

 

[greeneg]

With Century sold X now has no ships less than 2000 persons. Is the trend toward ever larger ships inevitable?

 

Personally, I would pay a (slight) premium to be able to sail on a smaller ship that had access to ports the larger ships cannot use. I think the flexibility, ambiance and better itineraries of a smaller ship would make it very appealing and profitable if properly managed. They do not need to compete directly with Crystal, Azamara or Oceana, just offer a product somewhere in-between. I believe it is possible to accomplish, particularly if the ships are designed for the in-between market from the start, with a normal mix of interior, oceanview and other cabins, and not go for 'all suite' or similar luxury features.

 

I wish they would give it a shot.

 

What features and services do you think they should include, yet still be competitive in the in-between market?

 

Are there other lines that do this that I am not aware of?

 

This, of course, was the original reason that Celebrity purchased The Quest and The Journey, now Azamara Club Cruises, this would provide Celebrity Standards of Service and Cuisine in a more intimate and laid-back environment for those cruisers who really were not Mega-Ship intensive. Of course, LP has taken Azamara in another direction entirely, but that was the plan when the ships originally joined X. Yes, I think that it can be done if done right, without ambitious pretensions of grandeur; I Know that my wife and I very much prefer the smaller ship experience, and I think that it can be done at a competitive price. I want good service, well prepared food, and interesting itineraries at a rational per Diem. I do think that it can be done and should be profitable.

 

Ed

[SaintL]

Hoping celebrity announces some new builds soon, they need to take luxury bigger and canyon ranch soa club on oars needs to be equivalent to what's on land.

[neverbeenhere]

If one of us (not mentioning who) would drop a couple hundred million in seed money, Celebrity could built us all those smaller ships we would like to see.

[QShip]

If you can get me some of those seeds I will be glad to plant them. Jack who?

[Germancruiser]

I suppose X will comeing up with a bunch of newbuild during the next years- in about 5 years more or less- they will get rid of the Millenium Class- so they NEDD replacements! Preferable ships the same size as those of the Millie- Class ships!

[TommyD3]

Everything I have heard from officers onboard indicates that any new build would be at least the size of the S class.

 

The problem is the larger ships cost less per passenger for fuel and fuel is a MAJOR cost:(

[Germancruiser]

I fear you are right Tommy- such a shame- love the Milli Size- !

[jayoldschool]

Personally, I would pay a (slight) premium to be able to sail on a smaller ship that had access to ports the larger ships cannot use. I think the flexibility, ambiance and better itineraries of a smaller ship would make it very appealing and profitable if properly managed. T

 

I 100% agree.

[Holly2]

People forget that this is the highest rated and most consistently sold out ship.

Would love to see more in that class. But no casino or spa.

[Orator]

People forget that this is the highest rated and most consistently sold out ship.

Would love to see more in that class. But no casino or spa.

 

Unfortunately it will probably be the opposite. There will be a larger Casino and Spa. These are high margin producing areas and support the Corporate objectives. Celebrity is not alone. The President of NCL said the same on CNBC earlier this week. RCLs new builds are revenue producing machines. Can anyone think of recent mainstream new builds that aren't.

[4774Papa]

We like the smaller ships. The M class is a good size. The S class is still pretty manageable and does have design improvements.

 

We did one cruise on the NCL Epic, megaship (4300 passengers) and did not like it so much. It always seemed crowded.

[herbanrenewal]

I think putting mega bucks into Century would be different from doing a new build about the size of the former Mercury. It would be new, for one thing. ...

 

Royal Caribbean is clearly trending to the gigantic ships. Not my thing. I think there's room for Celebrity to do something smaller and different. Already, the S class cannot go to Venice, for example. There are an awful lot of retired or soon-to-be-retired folks out there with money to spend who might be attracted to something a bit different. Me, for example.

 

 

I totally agree. At some point in life zip lines and road company production shows no longer appeal. For many of us who love to experience new places, and have the time now available to spend more than a long weekend, a smaller class new ship would be a dream come true.

 

So many ports can no longer accommodate the newer ships and there is an impact on the economy of those ports.

 

And when you dock at some of the new piers that accommodate the new ships you can spend an enormous amount of valuable port time (and money) getting to the place you want to see. Within walking distance of the dock are only new tourist-market facilities. There are docks closer, but the new ships can not fit in them...they have had to build new bigger piers further away to keep the cruise business.

 

A smaller ship that toured the Scandinavia and northern European ports in the summer and southern ports in the winter; for the Americas, add to the northern US and Canadian ports to include more smaller venues, and down the coast of the US there are many lovely ports that are bipassed by the larger ships of today. Spending time in some of the smaller ports that can't be used by the mega-ships could market to many who want to continue to see new places and learn more about the people and cultures - possible in smaller venues, but not what you see when you cruise the mega-ships and mega-ports.

 

I love my cruising experiences, but the products that may be offered in a mega-ship-only world are not necessarily what I have loved most about cruising. Unless a new class of modest sized ship can enter the market my choices may continue to erode until I am no longer loving cruising.

[tunaman2011]

Greetings

 

It all in the numbers. A ship carrying 2,000 pax has double the per person fixed cost as a ship carrying 4,000 pax. Now the 2,000 pax ship may use a little less fuel and may cost a few less dollars to build, but it's still going to be a much higher cost. Celebrity would have to charge significantly more per pax and then they would find themselves direct competition with the smaller lux lines. Isn't that exactly why they established Azamara? Smaller ships for those who want a more intimate cruise.

 

If you look at Quantum you will see a bulked up S-Class ship. I think the next build of Celebrity ships will look very much like Quantum but substituting more "refined" settings instead of the rock wall and other "adventure" attractions.

 

Good Sailing

Tom

[3dog]

It is just my opinion, but...

 

With Century sold X now has no ships less than 2000 persons. Is the trend toward ever larger ships inevitable?

 

Yes.

 

Personally, I would pay a (slight) premium to be able to sail on a smaller ship that had access to ports the larger ships cannot use. I think the flexibility, ambiance and better itineraries of a smaller ship would make it very appealing and profitable if properly managed. They do not need to compete directly with Crystal, Azamara or Oceana, just offer a product somewhere in-between. I believe it is possible to accomplish, particularly if the ships are designed for the in-between market from the start, with a normal mix of interior, oceanview and other cabins, and not go for 'all suite' or similar luxury features.

 

I wish they would give it a shot.

 

What features and services do you think they should include, yet still be competitive in the in-between market?

 

Are there other lines that do this that I am not aware of?

 

There are always the likes of Regent, Silver Sea, Seabourn, and Viking. The new Viking Star looks to be the ~50,000 ton <1000 pax ship that fits the "I just want the ocean" group, and still have higher end cabins. The major lines (though Viking is growing to where they might be considered a candidate for "major") are finding it more economically practical to build the mega ships with lots to do (kids of all ages plain aren't interested in "just the ocean").

[3dog]

We did one cruise on the NCL Epic, megaship (4300 passengers) and did not like it so much. It always seemed crowded.

 

Personally, I think this is because of how little public space they have for these passengers. Epic is a little smaller than RCI's Freedom class, but caries 13% more passengers.

 

It's not the number of passengers on the ship, but how much space there is and they are distributed (700 pax on any current Seabourn ship would be very crowded).

[hcat]

Mercury was our fav ship... I had always hoped they would keep her( instead of Century) and make it a 5 star spa at sea with shorter itins to the Bahamas....an expanded spa, the fabulous original T pool, spa cuisine, more classes, yoga, water aerobics..volleyball, salon, gym, etc,,.I think there would be a good niche market for it,..

 

Guess that's not where the mass market money makers are going but I would have booked a few times a year.,,,

 

hopefully, the S class ships will be fun for awhile...the mall/food court ships of Royal C hold no appeal for us,..

[Chunky2219]

Solstice class is the largest ship we've been on or probably ever will. Despite the number of pax, it doesn't seem crowded, crammed cheek to jowel as larger ships are and even some of the tiddlers.

 

Sadly, everyone is going bigger, even the premium and luxury lines with thier new, bigger addititions to the R Ships. In the fullness of time, everyone will get the choice to either share ship space with 4000 people or spend more to be with 800-1200 people. It's all driven by people wanting lower fares and three cruises a year. As my old dad used to say, "You can't have the penny and the bun".

 

.

[Onessa]

It is all about ROI (return on investment). Celebrity could make money with smaller ships, but they make more money with the larger ships. So they could invest a dollar in a small ship to see an ROI of 10 cents, or they could invest a dollar in a large ship to see an ROI of 11 cents. So they choose the larger ship because it has a higher ROI.

 

Being profitable is not enough -- you need to be more profitable. As Michael Douglas' character said in Wall Street "greed is good"

 

We've all helped make this world, now we have to live in it.

[BrendaJ]

I must say, the size of the Azamara ships is very nice, as you see the same people over and over and it becomes a very friendly, intimate cruise. Unfortunately, I am not crazy about the Azamara cabins. For a port-intensive cruise, I guess they are okay, but the price for the larger cabins is far too high for me to justify it. And certainly, the entertainment options are narrow. I would hesitate to go on an Azamara cruise with too many sea days as I'd go a little stir crazy.

 

Although I haven't tried it, Oceania's newer ships seem to be a great compromise - 65,000 tonnes and a high staff to passenger ratio. I keep hoping Azamara will have a similar new build. The Azamara experience is great, but they just need a newer ship.

 

I don't see Celebrity building a new moderately-sized ship, but I don't see why Azamara couldn't, assuming they continue to be profitable.

[phoenix_dream]

Was reading this thread when something really struck me. Interesting that on this thread, people recognize that sailing a much larger ship costs the cruise lines a lot less per person than sailing smaller ships. That is the main reason, IMHO, that the cost of cruises now as opposed to when I started sailing over 20 years ago is lower when inflation is considered. Interesting that many people posting on the 'adding all the pay-to-play options is to keep cruise costs down as compared to years ago' don't quite seem to get that point - just sayin':):).

 

As to size, I really wish Celebrity would offer a mid-sized option (Century size or close to it), in a price range in-between their current pricing and a luxury line or Azamara. I am also one who would be willing to pay for that option, particularly if they included ports the bigger ships can't use.

[Shake]

Our favorites are the S class ship and really like the larger size. We prefer lots of different things to do instead of intimacy.

[neverbeenhere]

DW says she likes larger, I say any size is good. Hmmmmm.... There is a joke there someplace. Sorry, Andy!