Disability discrimination settlement

[Krazy Kruizers]

For you Prinsendam lovers -- that is good news that she already has 10 handicapped cabins or roughly 2.5%.

[Stakeout]

 

I hope this does not signal the end of my beloved Prinsendam.

 

last we heard the Prinsendam will be the next to go bye-bye anyway supposedly before the Maasdam and Veendam

[Hondu]

T-Coil is great for hearing assistance instead of individual and trouble prone listening devices - do HAL ships offer this?

 

There would have to be a hearing loop in the room for the T-Coil to work. I too wonder if any ships are looped?

[richwmn]

Carnival Corporation is incorporated under the laws of Panama. There are many, many companies that are not incorporated in the US that are listed on the NYSE, and many of those have corporate headquarters in the US. And every one of Carnival Corp.'s subsidiary brands is incorporated overseas. These are not US corporations.

 

Although I generally find your information to be correct, I believe you are mistaken about this.

 

Carnival Cruise Lines, a wholly owned subsidiary of Carnival Corporation is incorporated under the laws of Panama. Princess Cruise Lines, another wholly owned subsidiary of Carnival Corporation, is incorporated under the laws of Bermuda. Carnival Corporation, the parent of Carnival Cruise Lines, Princess Cruise Lines and Holland America Cruise Lines (among others) is incorporated both in the United States and England and its stock is listed on the NYSE.

Each of the other subsidiary companies, including Holland America, are individually incorporated in various places. As far as the ships, each is owned by another Subsidiary Corporation and leased to Carnival, Princess and Holland America.

[Host Walt]

last we heard the Prinsendam will be the next to go bye-bye anyway supposedly before the Maasdam and Veendam

Hope this won't happen. We missed our shot at sailing on the previous Rotterdam and would hate missing a chance to sail on the Prinsendam, one of the "right sized" cruise ships still sailing.

[chengkp75]

Although I generally find your information to be correct, I believe you are mistaken about this.

 

Carnival Cruise Lines, a wholly owned subsidiary of Carnival Corporation is incorporated under the laws of Panama. Princess Cruise Lines, another wholly owned subsidiary of Carnival Corporation, is incorporated under the laws of Bermuda. Carnival Corporation, the parent of Carnival Cruise Lines, Princess Cruise Lines and Holland America Cruise Lines (among others) is incorporated both in the United States and England and its stock is listed on the NYSE.

Each of the other subsidiary companies, including Holland America, are individually incorporated in various places. As far as the ships, each is owned by another Subsidiary Corporation and leased to Carnival, Princess and Holland America.

 

Here are the articles of incorporation for Carnival Corporation, as updated in 2003, under the laws of Panama:

 

http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrBT7wmorJVYisAoJBXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEyNTZwcDJsBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMyBHZ0aWQDQjA1NzhfMQRzZWMDc3I-/RV=2/RE=1437799078/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fmedia.corporate-ir.net%2fmedia_files%2firol%2f14%2f140690%2fCorpGov%2fArticlesIncorporation.pdf/RK=0/RS=jaKcYM59W_Xt5R.ml6GSbnICuIo-

 

Just because a stock is listed on the NYSE does not mean the company is a US company.

Edited July 24, 2015 by chengkp75

[sammiedawg]

I don't think this will mean the end of the Prinsendam at all. She already has 10 wheel chair accessible cabins, so 2.5% of the ship already.

 

 

 

thanks very much for posting this second link. It adds a lot of clarification.

 

We were on Prinsendam last year and while seated in a public area we overheard an officer talking about sunsetting the ship, when it would happen, etc. He said their regulatory problems are related to US emission standards. This ship does not meet Coast Guard inspection standards and they are generally fined when inspected in US ports. Therefore they try to minimize exposure to US ports.

We were not impressed by the ship so we were listening carefully to the discussion on deficiencies.

[chengkp75]

We were on Prinsendam last year and while seated in a public area we overheard an officer talking about sunsetting the ship, when it would happen, etc. He said their regulatory problems are related to US emission standards. This ship does not meet Coast Guard inspection standards and they are generally fined when inspected in US ports. Therefore they try to minimize exposure to US ports.

We were not impressed by the ship so we were listening carefully to the discussion on deficiencies.

 

You got the gist of it, but even the ship's officers may not truly understand the implications. It is the EPA that sets emissions standards, not the USCG.

 

Now, even these EPA requirements are only in regards to the fuel the ship is allowed to burn. Up until Jan 1st this year, ships entering within 200 nm of the North American coast, were required to burn 1% sulfur fuel as opposed to the worldwide allowance of 3.5% sulfur. This could be done while still burning residual fuel which the ships have always burned, it only required the ship to stock two grades of fuel, and switch back and forth. Many, many ships did this for the two years this US ECA standard was in place. Now, as of Jan 1st, ships entering 200 nm of the NA coast, must burn fuel with no more than 0.1% sulfur. This can only be met by burning diesel fuel, not residual fuel. Again, this is accomplished by carrying two fuels, and switching back and forth. Virtually every ship in the world is capable of switching fuels in their engines, and burning either residual fuel or diesel, so the Prinsendam is not unique, and that is not the answer. The answer is cost. The diesel costs twice as much as the residual fuel. Another alternative to diesel fuel is to install a scrubber, but this costs about $1-1.5 million per engine, but allows burning of the cheaper fuel. HAL most likely feels that it is not cost effective to install a scrubber that has a payback period of 7-10 years on a ship of the Prinsendam's age.

 

If the ship is being fined for emissions violations, that is HAL's decision to not provide the proper fuel. Its as simple as that.

[OlsSalt]

Only Crystal or the newer Princess ships come into our central California waters so far.

 

And they are tracked relentlessly by the local environmentalists who trail them doing water samples to see if they are illegally discharging anything. This obviously has led to the loss of cruise tourism revenue for our state, and loss of a wonderful tourism experience for the passengers.

 

Are there any US-built, US flagged cruise ship that strictly complies with the Jones Act, USCG and EPA etc, etc, etc standards? (Begging the obvious answer.)

Edited July 24, 2015 by OlsSalt

[chengkp75]

Only Crystal or the newer Princess ships come into our central California waters so far.

 

And they are tracked relentlessly by the local environmentalists who trail them doing water samples to see if they are illegally discharging anything. This obviously has led to the loss of cruise tourism revenue for our state, and loss of a wonderful tourism experience for the passengers.

 

Are there any US-built, US flagged cruise ship that strictly complies with the Jones Act, USCG and EPA etc, etc, etc standards? (Begging the obvious answer.)

 

Meeting every one of your criteria besides one, is the NCL Pride of America. She was started in the US, but finished in Germany, so is not US built, and got an exemption from the construction clause of the PVSA, since the US government had made loan guarantees to the defunct Hawaiian American Cruise Line, for the ship, and the taxpayers were looking at getting stuck with a partially completed cruise ship. However, the cost of meeting US flag requirements is so great that without the monopoly on the Hawaiian inter-island trade that the POA does, she would not be able to compete.

 

Foreign flag ships do not need to meet USCG requirements, only SOLAS and other IMO requirements. While in US waters, all ships, US or foreign must meet the EPA emissions requirements.

 

Not sure why the environmentalists would deprive your area of cruise revenue, unless the ships were actually doing something wrong. Nearly every modern cruise ship has an advanced waste water treatment plant that handles every drop of water used onboard, and treats it to near drinking water quality. These plants are difficult to start and stop, so it really doesn't make sense for a ship to bypass this "while at sea" for cost reasons. Also, the effluent must be tested every two weeks when calling US ports.

 

Central California suffers from geography and the PVSA. The ECA means that the entire run from SF up to Alaska, or SF down to Mexico is under the emissions rules, while trips from LA or Seattle save time spent in the ECA. Also, SF is farther from distant foreign ports so open jaw cruises are more costly.

[OlsSalt]

I always thought deep water Port Hueneme, Calif could be a great cruise port since many popular cruise ports around the world are long bus trips to their sights and destinations. (Hanoi, Hue, Ho Chi Mihn City, Beijing, Bangkok, Luxor, Kuala Lumpur come to mind)

 

One could go either south, east or north an hour or so from Port Hueneme to see some very interesting shore excursion destinations in this part of the world instead of being limited by tenders when stopping Santa Barbara.

 

Local environmentalists hate everything that moves in the local waters, that is not a native biologic organism. Myth supersedes fact here.

Edited July 24, 2015 by OlsSalt

[OlsSalt]

Thanks for the info about NCL Pride of America - I see they are around a 2000 passenger ship - not the new behemoths out there today - more like a HAL Vista ship.

[kazu]

We were on Prinsendam last year and while seated in a public area we overheard an officer talking about sunsetting the ship, when it would happen, etc. He said their regulatory problems are related to US emission standards. This ship does not meet Coast Guard inspection standards and they are generally fined when inspected in US ports. Therefore they try to minimize exposure to US ports.

We were not impressed by the ship so we were listening carefully to the discussion on deficiencies.

 

Well, I am sure you heard the officer talking but I am sure you also heard what you chose to.

 

Sorry, but I know you are not a fan of the ship and I get that and respect it, but since the ship had a 99% score on the last couple of inspections ( I think that is right - I confess I didn't go to check - I am just going by memory).

 

I have had the pleasure of several chats with officers and one in the not the most pleasant circumstances (when my camera disappeared). All the officers I have talked to revere this ship and it is not every officer that can serve here. This ship is a whole different kettle of fish and it was clear that the officer we talked to (Ship's Captain - I think that is the right title but Copper can correct me if I am wrong) took a lot of pride in this ship.

 

If the ship is sunsetted as you call it, it will be because a) maintenance is too costly as they do make stuff of this quality anymore and it's hard to get it, b) some day they will not permit that lovely rosewood on the P'dam in the PG and dining room and c) they might not be able to get the parts.

 

The P'dam's days are numbered most likely 3-5 years by my best guess and what I have been told on board. and yes, I have been invited to focus groups. this ship is one of the few that still does it I believe. They listen to their passengers. That's why they have more two tops than most in the fleet.

 

I'm not sure why this thread has diverted to the P'dam, but long may she sail and hopefully with us on board one more time.

[chengkp75]

Well, I am sure you heard the officer talking but I am sure you also heard what you chose to.

 

Sorry, but I know you are not a fan of the ship and I get that and respect it, but since the ship had a 99% score on the last couple of inspections ( I think that is right - I confess I didn't go to check - I am just going by memory).

 

I have had the pleasure of several chats with officers and one in the not the most pleasant circumstances (when my camera disappeared). All the officers I have talked to revere this ship and it is not every officer that can serve here. This ship is a whole different kettle of fish and it was clear that the officer we talked to (Ship's Captain - I think that is the right title but Copper can correct me if I am wrong) took a lot of pride in this ship.

 

If the ship is sunsetted as you call it, it will be because a) maintenance is too costly as they do make stuff of this quality anymore and it's hard to get it, b) some day they will not permit that lovely rosewood on the P'dam in the PG and dining room and c) they might not be able to get the parts.

 

The P'dam's days are numbered most likely 3-5 years by my best guess and what I have been told on board. and yes, I have been invited to focus groups. this ship is one of the few that still does it I believe. They listen to their passengers. That's why they have more two tops than most in the fleet.

 

I'm not sure why this thread has diverted to the P'dam, but long may she sail and hopefully with us on board one more time.

 

The reason older ships are retired is not maintenance of equipment or furnishings. It has to do with the increased surveys and inspections required of the ship's hull and structure. P'dam will be starting the 7th special survey period in 2018, and there will normally be quite a lot of steel renewal, both hull plate and internal structure. This becomes very costly in addition to the cost of the x-rays of the welds, etc.

[JB&JLG74]

***

I'm not sure why this thread has diverted to the P'dam, but long may she sail and hopefully with us on board one more time.

 

I wouldn't say that this thread has been diverted to the P'dam as I started this thread with the comment that "I hope this does not signal the end of my beloved Prinsendam." I appreciate all of the comments about how much time she has left.

[serendipity1499]

T-Coil is great for hearing assistance instead of individual and trouble prone listening devices - do HAL ships offer this?

 

Well, I am sure you heard the officer talking but I am sure you also heard what you chose to.

 

Sorry, but I know you are not a fan of the ship and I get that and respect it, but since the ship had a 99% score on the last couple of inspections ( I think that is right - I confess I didn't go to check - I am just going by memory).

 

I have had the pleasure of several chats with officers and one in the not the most pleasant circumstances (when my camera disappeared). All the officers I have talked to revere this ship and it is not every officer that can serve here. This ship is a whole different kettle of fish and it was clear that the officer we talked to (Ship's Captain - I think that is the right title but Copper can correct me if I am wrong) took a lot of pride in this ship.

 

If the ship is sunsetted as you call it, it will be because a) maintenance is too costly as they do make stuff of this quality anymore and it's hard to get it, b) some day they will not permit that lovely rosewood on the P'dam in the PG and dining room and c) they might not be able to get the parts.

 

The P'dam's days are numbered most likely 3-5 years by my best guess and what I have been told on board. and yes, I have been invited to focus groups. this ship is one of the few that still does it I believe. They listen to their passengers. That's why they have more two tops than most in the fleet.

 

I'm not sure why this thread has diverted to the P'dam, but long may she sail and hopefully with us on board one more time.[/QUOTE]

 

Every Officer we've talked to on our longer cruises on the Prinsendam have always talked about her with a great deal of pride.. Unfortunately, I agree with you Kazu, that the years ahead are numbered for our favorite ship..

 

I also believe that it takes a special passenger, who can see the glass half-full, to sail on the P'dam & enjoy her.. Some posters on CC need more glitz & would not be happy sailing on this wonderful older ship.. This P'dam reminds me of the older, but well kept European Hotel's which we frequented in the 60's & 70's,such as the old Metropole in Brussels..

Edited July 24, 2015 by serendipity1499

[kazu]

The reason older ships are retired is not maintenance of equipment or furnishings. It has to do with the increased surveys and inspections required of the ship's hull and structure. P'dam will be starting the 7th special survey period in 2018, and there will normally be quite a lot of steel renewal, both hull plate and internal structure. This becomes very costly in addition to the cost of the x-rays of the welds, etc.

 

I know you know more than I about ships. I recognize that.

 

But realize that the window for the Crow's Nest has to specially made when it breaks.

 

Same for the MDR windows. It takes about 3 months to make these windows and costs a LOT of money.

 

those are just the windows, I can't envision the other costs.

 

I don't dispute what you say but IMO only this ship was built far better than any ship in the HAL fleet. I have done several TA's on her and I would rather do them on her than any other ship in the fleet and many others out there.

 

2018 matches the time the Captain gave us but he did not say she would be gone then just that that much was guaranteed. So time will tell. I suspect her steel and hull are better than many and yes, they may need work but I hope HAL will do it because this is one DAM ship that should be kept in the fleet or at the very least replaced with a replica ;)

[kazu]

I wouldn't say that this thread has been diverted to the P'dam as I started this thread with the comment that "I hope this does not signal the end of my beloved Prinsendam." I appreciate all of the comments about how much time she has left.

 

apologies :o then I shall post for my favourite ship in the fleet :)

[Hlitner]

This thread seems to be morphing into a Prinsendam thread, and we add ourselves to the long list of HAL cruisers who love this old vessel. We are also aware (like many HAL folks) that the P'Dam has the highest operating cost per passenger day of all the ships in the fleet. For this reason alone, it is just a matter of time until HAL sells the vessel. We hope that this does happen for many years to come, but the new ADA settlement sure puts one more nail in the P'Dam's coffin.

 

Hank

[JB&JLG74]

 

I agree with you! ****

 

The problem is the ADA rule says you can't question what the Handler's disability is.. You can only ask what the animal is trained to do.. I believe that HAL, some cruise Lines & many airlines are loathe to question the Dog's Handler as they are afraid they would be taken to court..

 

It's a shame that some people would take advantage!:(

 

I don't care what the handler's disability is, nor do I care what the dog has been trained to do. What I want to question is the dog's training credentials. My local coupon book advertises getting your pet certified as a service dog so that it can fly on the airlines without a crate. The handler on the Amsterdam told people that she trained the dog herself (leading to jokes about the dog being "home schooled"). There needs to be more regulation of how a service animal is trained. I believe that legitimate training organizations could easily meet any training standards that might be mandated and that would weed out all of these abusers.

You are absolutely correct that providers are loathe to ask questions for fear of lawsuits. That's why I believe they could use some support in terms of better regulation of the training organizations capable of issuing certification -- not that it will happen. In the most appalling incident on the Amsterdam, the dog mistook the carpeted elevator foyer area aft of the Lido for the service animal relief area. I don't think that a properly trained service animal would ever do that. Most pets wouldn't even do that.

I just believe in rules -- I also get annoyed in the grocery when someone has 25 items in the 10 items or less lane.

[sammiedawg]

Well, I am sure you heard the officer talking but I am sure you also heard what you chose to.

 

Sorry, but I know you are not a fan of the ship and I get that and respect it, but since the ship had a 99% score on the last couple of inspections ( I think that is right - I confess I didn't go to check - I am just going by memory).

 

I have had the pleasure of several chats with officers and one in the not the most pleasant circumstances (when my camera disappeared). All the officers I have talked to revere this ship and it is not every officer that can serve here. This ship is a whole different kettle of fish and it was clear that the officer we talked to (Ship's Captain - I think that is the right title but Copper can correct me if I am wrong) took a lot of pride in this ship.

 

If the ship is sunsetted as you call it, it will be because a) maintenance is too costly as they do make stuff of this quality anymore and it's hard to get it, b) some day they will not permit that lovely rosewood on the P'dam in the PG and dining room and c) they might not be able to get the parts.

 

The P'dam's days are numbered most likely 3-5 years by my best guess and what I have been told on board. and yes, I have been invited to focus groups. this ship is one of the few that still does it I believe. They listen to their passengers. That's why they have more two tops than most in the fleet.

 

I'm not sure why this thread has diverted to the P'dam, but long may she sail and hopefully with us on board one more time.

 

I've never seen posted inspection scores as conducted by the Coast Guard, not to be confused with CDC VSP inspections which focus on food safety and sanitation. I'm not talking about the CDC. The ships officer was talking about emission standards not being met on Prinsendam, fines being paid when the US Coast guard inspects. it is hardly sensational to say a very old ship cannot pass US emission standards.

One year prior we were on Ryndam, a lovely ship that impressed us, few if any mechanical issues and everything seemed to be in lovely condition. I rarely read of mechanical problems on CC. Our favorable impressions seem validated as it is being transferred to a new market, it still has value in the marketplace. We know all the old ships are for sale only two have been transferred to another division, none have been sold.

 

Anyway, on the Ryndam we had a very accessible captain who had a few public Q and A sessions, one of which was at a culinary class. At each session multiple questions were asked about how long the old ships will continue to sail and the captain gave pretty candid answers about old ships. The conversation we overheard on Prinsendam was similar in nature.

 

Thanks Chengkp for clarifying it is the EPA emission standards in question, perhaps the coast guard conducts the inspections?

Edited July 24, 2015 by sammiedawg

[chengkp75]

I know you know more than I about ships. I recognize that.

 

But realize that the window for the Crow's Nest has to specially made when it breaks.

 

Same for the MDR windows. It takes about 3 months to make these windows and costs a LOT of money.

 

those are just the windows, I can't envision the other costs.

 

I don't dispute what you say but IMO only this ship was built far better than any ship in the HAL fleet. I have done several TA's on her and I would rather do them on her than any other ship in the fleet and many others out there.

 

2018 matches the time the Captain gave us but he did not say she would be gone then just that that much was guaranteed. So time will tell. I suspect her steel and hull are better than many and yes, they may need work but I hope HAL will do it because this is one DAM ship that should be kept in the fleet or at the very least replaced with a replica ;)

 

I'm not familiar with the windows you mention, but I would say that nearly every window on a cruise ship is custom fabricated, and further you can't just call a glass place to install them, they need to have special insurance bonds to work on ships, so the price goes up. All ships' equipment is expensive, as nearly everything, particularly in the hotel of cruise ships is custom built.

 

While the P'dam may be better built, its a question of corrosion caused simply by the ship being in sea water. They ultrasound steel plates for pitting, and a collection of very small pits can cause an entire plate of steel to be renewed. Also, the older the ship, the more the welds have flexed, and the more likely to crack, hence the x-rays. Unfortunately, ships built since the '70's has less volume of "higher strength" steel, which will fail sooner. This is why the SS United States still has a hull that is considered to be virtually pristine.

[sammiedawg]

Only Crystal or the newer Princess ships come into our central California waters so far.

 

And they are tracked relentlessly by the local environmentalists who trail them doing water samples to see if they are illegally discharging anything. This obviously has led to the loss of cruise tourism revenue for our state, and loss of a wonderful tourism experience for the passengers.

 

Are there any US-built, US flagged cruise ship that strictly complies with the Jones Act, USCG and EPA etc, etc, etc standards? (Begging the obvious answer.)

 

Do you live in the Santa Barbara area? We have booked coastal cruises to spend another lovely day there but itineraries inevitably change and this port is dropped. It's a shame.

[Cruising Is Bliss]

While I am in complete agreement with the necessity of tightening the rules for booking accessible cabins, and making some reasonable changes to improve accessibility, I am really surprised that this settlement was reached, or that the investigation actually looked into many of the areas that it did. I'm also a bit surprised that Carnival agreed to all of this. Before anyone flames me, I am basing this on the Specter v. NCL Supreme Court decision on the ADA, where the Court ruled that the ADA did not apply to "foreign ships' internal business or operations" without a clear mandate from Congress. Since Congress has not passed a bill revising the ADA to specifically include foreign ships, the Court says that only certain aspects of the ADA apply. This settlement makes it sound as if Justice has decided that all aspects will apply.

 

And, yes, since Carnival Corp is a foreign corporation, and the ships are foreign, the ADA has no application for ships that do not call in the US.[/QUOTE]

 

You are quite right Justice can't force CCL to make any changes on ships that don't sail in US waters. A point worth noting is that the settlement agreement only covers hotel rooms and transportation features of cruise ships. It specifically excludes shops and casinos unless they are open while ships are in US waters. What this settlement says is CCL agrees to make changes, which is quite different from saying Justice forced them to make the changes.

 

I would buy my own popcorn and pay money to watch a CEO of CCL from an alternate timeline hold a press conference announcing they had the right to exclude Costa ships sailing in Europe from the settlement agreement because the US Department of Justice couldn't force CCL to include them.

 

I will also note without comment that Specter v. NCL included the issue of NCL selling wheelchair accessible cabins on ships that did not have wheelchair accessible lifeboats, and that NCL also had no procedures on how to get disabled passengers into lifeboats.

[Copper10-8]

We were on Prinsendam last year and while seated in a public area we overheard an officer talking about sunsetting the ship, when it would happen, etc. He said their regulatory problems are related to US emission standards. This ship does not meet Coast Guard inspection standards and they are generally fined when inspected in US ports. Therefore they try to minimize exposure to US ports.

We were not impressed by the ship so we were listening carefully to the discussion on deficiencies.

 

The U.S. Coast Guard's inspections of cruise ships deal with safety. The safety regulations cover such things as hull structure, watertight integrity, structural requirements to minimize fire hazards, equipment requirements for lifesaving, firefighting, and vessel control, and requirements pertaining to the safe navigation of the ship.

 

The USCG requires all cruise ships that take on passengers at U.S. ports to meet the International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea (SOLAS) SOLAS and other international regulations also require compliance with regulations regarding structural fire protection, firefighting and lifesaving equipment, watercraft integrity and stability, vessel control, navigation safety, crewing and crew competency, safety management and environmental protection.

 

The environmental protection deals with pollution discharge incidents i.e. the unauthorized dumping of untreated or inadequately treated sewage, solid waste, hazardous waste and bilge water