Service Charge (Tips) Increase

[sail7seas]

I was in the travel business for 33 years & have traveled all over the world.. Many times I've paid a Hotel Service Charge even in Europe & the U.S. .. I've even paid a service charge in Restaurants in Europe , South Amer. & Asia.. In some cases you don't even realize you are paying an extra service charge.. At least the cruise lines are up-front with it..

 

Read these articles.. You would be amazed at some of the extra hidden charges!

 

Some even charge a Hotel Service Charge in addition to a Hotel Service Tax..

 

http://thelogicalindian.com/news/dont-get-cheated-service-charges-in-your-hotel-bills-is-nowhere-related-to-service-tax-clarifies-finance-ministry/

 

http://www.independenttraveler.com/travel-tips/hotel-and-b-and-b/hidden-hotel-fees

 

http://www.tripadvisor.com/FAQ_Answers-g58258-d84021-t140207-The_Hotel_Charges_22_service_charge_What_is_the.html

 

Both Bruce Muzz & Phillip217 have explained that the reason it is not done is because the crew would have to pay additional taxes on their earnings..Take a look at these posts:

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=32624244&postcount=73

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=2209141&page=2

(Post No. 32)

 

This is what Phillip posted:

 

On May 26, 2008 Phillip217, who is a Cruise Line Officer, discussed the History of Tipping & why the Cruise Lines cannot incorporate tips in your Cruise cost..This is what he said..

 

"For all of those who whine and moan about just adding extra money to the price of the cruise and omitting tipping altogether, you may be surprised to learn that the cruise lines have actually considered that idea a few times over the past 100 years. If we did it, that money would be taxable and commissionable, reducing the net earnings of our crew rather substantially.Phillip answers several more questions throughout this thread ...His posts are very informative...I downloaded a couple of his posts into WORD, (4 pages) However, failed to note the URL for the thread & can't pull up anything for 2008..

 

Phillip goes on to explain what waiters make on most cruise lines..He claims that all Crew are guaranteed a minimum wage in their contract: $1.00 per day plus tips with a minimum guarantee..This is part of what he said:

 

"Most cruise line waiters are promised a MINIMUM GUARANTEED SALARY of around US$1600 - US$2200 PER MONTH."

 

He goes on to say that when ships go into dry dock, if the & waiters have not made their guaranteed minimum the cruise line must put $$$ into the tipping pool..

 

If anyone has the ability to pull up the URL it might be worth it to bring the thread forward again or even post the URL on this thread...

 

 

 

I don't often repost long 'whole quotes' but in this case, I fully agree with both and didn't want to chop up either of these messages.

 

[Hows the Serenity]

Sorry if I have upset some of you, but somehow I think that my point has been missed here.

Firstly the comment about a living wage...........in Australia we have what we call a minimum wage - this is the minimum any employer can pay an adult - this (in theory) is a wage that is enough to live on - though depending where they live that is debatable. The employee then pays tax on this income, if they receive tips/bonuses etc they must also pay tax on these. Everyone must pay their fair share of tax (though the big end of town do as much as possible to avoid this).

If the $12.50 pp a day was calculated on the ship's passenger capacity and added to each employees current wage, then this would surely make it easier for the shipping companies to calculate the crew wages.

Again I also believe that if the shipping companies then added this to the up front fare then it also makes this more transparent and a prospective passenger then knows at the outset what their cruise is going to cost them. I have had to go looking for what the gratuities are going to cost me over and above the published fare, so that I know what I eventually have to pay.

I know how difficult it has been explaining to other people that what is published is not what they are going to pay, that there are tips etc to be added on.

I disagree in principal to the comment about hotels adding a resort fee, I have never heard of that being for gratuities, but for the use of services. Again I believe that the hotels should add this into their room charge.

I also disagree with the comment that if the shipping companies paid their employees "a living wage", then we the passenger couldnt afford to cruise, as the fare would be too expensive. This is a sad indictment of our society that we condone a wage that isnt sufficient to live on, just so that we can cruise in a style to which we have become accustomed.

To me this just means that we cannot cruise as often as we do now. Wasnt this the way it was some years ago anyway?

I for one would rather see these crew get paid as they should, pay their appropriate taxes, and if it means I cruise less than so be it.

I worry about these young people from third world countries being exploited for our comfort. They may be black, white, brindle, speak a different language, but they are just people the same as us, therefore they should be treated the same. We would not be comfortable if our adult children were treated this way, and we would not stand for it.

Again I state that I have no problem with paying the gratuities, just the way they are handled by the shipping companies, added to my bill daily, would rather pay up front.

Again I state that the 18% added to all purchases on board are fine by me, I just wish that I could see it up front, then a drink advertised at say $8.00 on a menu would become $9.45 on the menu, what is wrong with that???????? How the shipping companies handle this behind the scenes is their business, I dont care, I would just like to see what something is actually going to cost me.

I also resent a comment made by another poster, that when they come to Australia, they do not tip. I find that unfortunate, as no matter what a person is paid, if they give me great service then I reward that service with an appropriate tip.

Hopefully I have clarified some of what I originally posted.

I reiterate, I have no problem paying the gratuities etc, I would just like to see the total cost of what I am paying for up front and I am able to pay for it up front.

I value being a member of cruise critic and reading all the great tips, but I also believe if I have an opinion on something then I should be allowed to voice this.

I have never intended to insult or upset people, I just want to see what I am paying for there in black & white, so that I know the total of what I am paying.

Thank you

Chris

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Lizzie68]

I am in total agreement with paying the crew a living wage (by U.S. standards) and increasing the fare, thus allowing passengers to add additional tips where they wish. However, that's not what is done so we have to abide by the present arrangement, as sad as it is.

[Stratheden]

I agree with Chris. In Australia it is illegal to advertise prices that are not inclusive of all charges and taxes. When you pay for something you cannot be charged anything extra.

 

On the HAL website the price of the cabin is advertised + ports and taxes but never + HSC. That will be in tiny print hidden somewhere on another page. Totally illegal over here.

 

I have seen posts on here saying that a lot of Australians remove the HSC on the last day. I would imagine that when they get their bill it is the first time that they have been aware that they were being charged a HSC and they hadn't budgeted for it.

 

PS. We always pay our HSC and also tip our Room Attendants and Dining Room Waiters.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Stratheden

[3rdGenCunarder]

I agree with Chris. In Australia it is illegal to advertise prices that are not inclusive of all charges and taxes. When you pay for something you cannot be charged anything extra.

 

On the HAL website the price of the cabin is advertised + ports and taxes but never + HSC. That will be in tiny print hidden somewhere on another page. Totally illegal over here.

 

I have seen posts on here saying that a lot of Australians remove the HSC on the last day. I would imagine that when they get their bill it is the first time that they have been aware that they were being charged a HSC and they hadn't budgeted for it.

 

PS. We always pay our HSC and also tip our Room Attendants and Dining Room Waiters.

 

Do your laws also require that any business that puts a hold on a credit card must disclose this action? I know that hotels, cruise ships, and car rentals do this, but the only time a hotel ever made a point of telling me this was in Sydney.

 

In the US, tax is figured on total bill, not on each item separately. We may not do the math when we order, but we have some idea of what's coming at the end. Restaurants that add a service charge put that on the menu, usually in small print at the bottom. I don't know if that's the law, or if it's just what is usually done.

 

The US has a "tipping culture" because jobs that typically involve tipping, like waitstaff, have a lower minimum wage than jobs where workers are not tipped, like a supermarket checker. Although tipping originally may have been meant as a reward for good work, it has become the way workers in some jobs are paid, so we tip accordingly.

 

I hope this helps you understand why things are done differently in the US.

[momatibm]

When i much younger, I worked in various service jobs. At that time, tips were collected so income tax could be calculated on the tips. Considering we got paid very much less than minimum wage, that was horrible.

 

I totally understand the method that the cruise ships use so that the workers get the benefit of the HSC. I personally not only pay my HSC but also tip my cabin stewards, MDR waiters(head,asst, and runner), but also extra tip my bar waiter if they serve me regularly - extra.

 

I do follow other countries tipping policies, but if I have exceptional service, I thank the person and offer additional.

[Stratheden]

Do your laws also require that any business that puts a hold on a credit card must disclose this action? I know that hotels, cruise ships, and car rentals do this, but the only time a hotel ever made a point of telling me this was in Sydney.

 

In the US, tax is figured on total bill, not on each item separately. We may not do the math when we order, but we have some idea of what's coming at the end. Restaurants that add a service charge put that on the menu, usually in small print at the bottom. I don't know if that's the law, or if it's just what is usually done.

 

The US has a "tipping culture" because jobs that typically involve tipping, like waitstaff, have a lower minimum wage than jobs where workers are not tipped, like a supermarket checker. Although tipping originally may have been meant as a reward for good work, it has become the way workers in some jobs are paid, so we tip accordingly.

 

I hope this helps you understand why things are done differently in the US.

 

Thank you, yes I do understand, i have travelled to the US several times, but I still get caught out at the register because I often go to the register with the correct amount of money in my hand only to have to scrabble around and hold everyone up looking for more cash. :)

 

I was trying to explain why first time travellers from Australia would be unfamiliar with the HSC.

 

I can remember on our first coach tour in the US when the Tour Director stood at the front of the bus on the last day and told us all that we would be required to give her and the coach driver $x each per person per day as a tip. Everyone looked at each other and muttered. This was a bus of international travellers - mainly German, Dutch, English and Australian. I think she was very disappointed.

[3rdGenCunarder]

Thank you, yes I do understand, i have travelled to the US several times, but I still get caught out at the register because I often go to the register with the correct amount of money in my hand only to have to scrabble around and hold everyone up looking for more cash. :)

 

I was trying to explain why first time travellers from Australia would be unfamiliar with the HSC.

 

I can remember on our first coach tour in the US when the Tour Director stood at the front of the bus on the last day and told us all that we would be required to give her and the coach driver $x each per person per day as a tip. Everyone looked at each other and muttered. This was a bus of international travellers - mainly German, Dutch, English and Australian. I think she was very disappointed.

 

I treat the sales tax issue as a chance to practice mental math. Clerks (especially teenagers) are sometimes surprised/impressed when I have the exact change ready, including the tax.

 

As for your coach trip, that's outrageous! Yes, people tend to tip the driver and guide, but to be told that you MUST tip and to specify the amount is unprofessional. She deserved to be disappointed.

Edited September 27, 2015 by 3rdGenCunarder

[sail7seas]

Sorry if I have upset some of you' date=' but somehow I think that my point has been missed here.

Firstly the comment about a living wage...........in Australia we have what we call a minimum wage - this is the minimum any employer can pay an adult - this (in theory) is a wage that is enough to live on - though depending where they live that is debatable. The employee then pays tax on this income, if they receive tips/bonuses etc they must also pay tax on these. Everyone must pay their fair share of tax (though the big end of town do as much as possible to avoid this).

 

 

<snip>

[/quote']

 

 

That is the same in U.S. We have both State and Federal minimum wage that all employers must pay. They can pay more but not less but for certain categories of workers. We know this, it is our system, we don't wish for other countries to change it for us. We do it your way in your country and welcome the same courtesy in ours. :)

 

 

When we travel the world, part of the education of our travels is learning how each country/region does things in their particular way. I don't see one way as being better than the other. Our way in U.S. is understood by our society and culture. There are hundreds of millions of us who live under this system. No one says any other country needs to do things our way but we don't have to do things the way others do, by the same token.

 

 

 

I treat the sales tax issue as a chance to practice mental math. Clerks (especially teenagers) are sometimes surprised/impressed when I have the exact change ready, including the tax.

 

As for your coach trip, that's outrageous! Yes, people tend to tip the driver and guide, but to be told that you MUST tip and to specify the amount is unprofessional. She deserved to be disappointed.

 

My late DH and I always have been known as travelers who are happy to say thank you with the universally accepted method of tipping. Had a Coach Guide or driver told us we had to tip and how much....... they not only would get nothing but their company would learn what they were doing to their customers.

 

That is unacceptable, IMO

 

Edited September 28, 2015 by sail7seas

[mcrcruiser]

All cruise ships are foreign flagged vessels because of the lower taxes vs if they were American Flag vessels & higher taxes .That being said has any one looked at the % increase in the tips .It is 8.7% .Taking $1 increase & dividing by the prior $11.50 tip rate . FWIW for the last 6 to 7 years American workers have not been given that high a % increase.

 

Regardless of the tip rate that any cruise line asks pax to pay ,the pax can pay what they feel is a good tip for service rendered .Isn't that the American way ?

 

Wait for the next recession in the USA & it is not far away with the amount of sub prime car loans being made to the public who can't make payments .Not a happy thought ;but ,it is reality.Then for sure raises will be frozen once again

Edited September 27, 2015 by mcrcruiser

[hrhdhd]

As for your coach trip, that's outrageous! Yes, people tend to tip the driver and guide, but to be told that you MUST tip and to specify the amount is unprofessional. She deserved to be disappointed.

 

I guess I don't understand how the HSC is different. People are told that they must, and how much to, tip. (HAL can call it a "service charge," but to most, including me, it's a tip. I mean, I expect someone to provide the service of making my bed. I shouldn't automatically be charged extra for that "service.")

[POA1]

That being said has any one looked at the % increase in the tips .It is 8.7% .Taking $1 increase & dividing by the prior $11.50 tip rate . FWIW for the last 6 to 7 years American workers have not been given that high a % increase.

 

It's been the only increase in a decade. That equates to 0.837% per year. (Just calculate the compound interest rate in reverse, using annual compounding.) While it's true that an 8% increase is a lot, no Increase for 10 years, followed by an 8% one time raise - or well under 1% per year is not exactly something to write home about.

Edited September 28, 2015 by POA1

[frugaltravel]

I'm curious - why do you resent this? There are lots of people behind the scenes that make your cruise enjoyable. Laundry, cooks, people in the Lido, the people who clean the bannisters, stairways, the list is endless.

 

They all contribute to your enjoyment of the cruise and the ship - not just the people that you see face to face.

 

Do you consider tipping laundry or maintenance people at land hotels you stay at? That would probably be the closest equivalent.

 

The main reason cruise lines have HSC (or whatever other lines call it) is because they are foreign-flagged (i.e. non-US) ships almost solely to avoid being subject to US wage laws. That is also why these same cruise lines make token stops in Canada and Mexico when doing otherwise purely US cruises.

 

I am not making a judgment as to whether the "optional" HSC is appropriate or not, just making a statement. I don't remove such gratuities but, as with other cases of included tips, I rarely tip over and above that amount. When I tip at restaurants where the tip is not already included, it is almost always above what they would have gotten if they made it more or less mandatory (except for the rare case of exceptionally poor service).

[serendipity1499]

Sorry if I have upset some of you' date=' but somehow I think that my point has been missed here.

 

(SNIP)

 

I disagree in principal to the comment about hotels adding a resort fee, I have never heard of that being for gratuities, but for the use of services. Again I believe that the hotels should add this into their room charge.

I also disagree with the comment that if the shipping companies paid their employees "a living wage", then we the passenger couldnt afford to cruise, as the fare would be too expensive. This is a sad indictment of our society that we condone a wage that isnt sufficient to live on, just so that we can cruise in a style to which we have become accustomed.

To me this just means that we cannot cruise as often as we do now. Wasnt this the way it was some years ago anyway?

I for one would rather see these crew get paid as they should, pay their appropriate taxes, and if it means I cruise less than so be it.

I worry about these young people from third world countries being exploited for our comfort. They may be black, white, brindle, speak a different language, but they are just people the same as us, therefore they should be treated the same. We would not be comfortable if our adult children were treated this way, and we would not stand for it.

Again I state that I have no problem with paying the gratuities, just the way they are handled by the shipping companies, added to my bill daily, would rather pay up front.

Again I state that the 18% added to all purchases on board are fine by me, I just wish that I could see it up front, then a drink advertised at say $8.00 on a menu would become $9.45 on the menu, what is wrong with that???????? How the shipping companies handle this behind the scenes is their business, I dont care, I would just like to see what something is actually going to cost me.

I also resent a comment made by another poster, that when they come to Australia, they do not tip. I find that unfortunate, as no matter what a person is paid, if they give me great service then I reward that service with an appropriate tip.

Hopefully I have clarified some of what I originally posted.

I reiterate, I have no problem paying the gratuities etc, I would just like to see the total cost of what I am paying for up front and I am able to pay for it up front.

I value being a member of cruise critic and reading all the great tips, but I also believe if I have an opinion on something then I should be allowed to voice this.

I have never intended to insult or upset people, I just want to see what I am paying for there in black & white, so that I know the total of what I am paying.

Thank you

Chris

/QUOTE']

 

Chris.. Thanks for your clarification...I do understand exactly what you are saying however I believe that most Australians read & know about practices in other countries & on Cruise ships just the same as tourists around the world do.. Your Friends are conning you when they say they did not know that they would be charged the HSC & don't have enough to pay the final bill..

 

I met many savy Australians, as a very young woman in the 70's when I was sent to Sydney to work a Travel Agents Convention & when I toured after the convention.. Before I left for Australia I read everything I could get my hands on about customs in your country! I knew exactly who to tip & who not to tip in your country.. Most Australians I came in contact with were probably smarter than I was at that age & knew the customs of each country which was represented at the convention..

 

IMO those Friends of yours who claim not to know about Cruise ship Hotel Service Charges are using that as an excuse not to pay it.. Just because it is not done in your country, doesn't mean that the rest of the world should follow your practices..

 

It may not be on your ticket but it is in black & white in the "Know before you go Booklet" for Booked Guests! It is also spelled out & easy to understand on the WEB site..

 

http://www.hollandamerica.com/cruise-vacation-planning/PlanningAndAdvice.action?tabName=Shipboard+Life&contentMenu=Money+Matters&contentSubMenu=Is+There+A+Hotel+Service+Charge+(Gratuity/Tip)?&WT.ac=PopTop_Gratuity

 

 

Quote • What Currency Is Used On Board?

• When Are My Deposits & Payments Due?

• What About Fares, Taxes & Surcharges?

• Is There A Hotel Service Charge (Gratuity/Tip)?

• Can I Use My Credit Card On Board?

 

Is There A Hotel Service Charge (Gratuity/Tip)?

 

Our crew works very hard to make sure that every aspect of your cruise meets the highest standards. This includes those crew members who serve you directly, such as Dining Room wait staff and the stewards who service your stateroom each day. There are also many others who support their efforts whom you may never meet, such as galley and laundry staff. To ensure that the efforts of all of our crew members are recognized and rewarded, a daily Hotel Service Charge is automatically added to each guest’s shipboard account.

The daily Hotel Service Charge*, per guest per day, is:

Staterooms (interior, ocean-view and verandah) on sailings departing on or prior to November 30, 2015 US$11.50

Suites on sailings departing on or prior to November 30, 2015 US$12.00

Staterooms (interior, ocean-view and verandah) on sailings departing on or after December 1, 2015 US$12.50

Suites on sailings departing on or after December 1, 2015 US$13.50

*The charges are subject to change without notice.

 

If our service exceeds or fails to meet your expectations, you are free to adjust this amount at the end of each segment and/or voyage. The Hotel Service Charge is paid entirely to Holland America Line crew members, and represents an important part of their compensation. A 15% Bar Service Charge is automatically added to bar charges and Dining Room wine purchases. In terminals, airports, ports of call and on shore excursions, we suggest that you extend gratuities consistent with customary local practices.

Unquote

 

Hotel Service charges are very common here in South West Florida & other parts of the US.. Many Hotels here charge Hotel Service charges even if they are NOT Resorts.. They use these resort fees to help pay their staff...

[sail7seas]

Do you consider tipping laundry or maintenance people at land hotels you stay at? That would probably be the closest equivalent.

 

The main reason cruise lines have HSC (or whatever other lines call it) is because they are foreign-flagged (i.e. non-US) ships almost solely to avoid being subject to US wage laws. That is also why these same cruise lines make token stops in Canada and Mexico when doing otherwise purely US cruises.

 

<snip>

 

 

 

 

Those token stops you reference are required by U.S. Law, specifically PVSA or Passenger Vessel Services Act. No foreign flagged vessel can carry paying passengers from one U.S. port to another without an intervening distant or near foreign port. I won't get into all the specifics but those stops in Mexico and Canada are mandatory.

Without getting into all the details of the law, of which I am not an expert, one of the requirements for a passenger vessel to be U.S. flagged is it must be built at a boat yard in the U.S. To my knowledge, there currently are none that are equipped to build such ships. (Someone please correct me if I am wrong.)

Edited September 28, 2015 by sail7seas

[frugaltravel]

Those token stops you reference are required by U.S. Law, specifically PVSA or Passenger Vessel Services Act. No foreign flagged vessel can carry paying passengers from one U.S. port to another without an intervening distant or near foreign port. I won't get into all the specifics but those stops in Mexico and Canada are mandatory.

Without getting into all the details of the law, of which I am not an expert, one of the requirements for a passenger vessel to be U.S. flagged is it must be built at a boat yard in the U.S. To my knowledge, there currently are none that are equipped to build such ships. (Someone please correct me if I am wrong.)

 

No need to tell me what I already know - why they make such stops :).

 

One thing I can assure you, if building a ship in the USA is a requirement (which I also am not sure if that is true), and cruise lines wanted to flag ships in the USA and be subject to US labor laws, I guarantee you they would find a way. Obviously their business model offers them more profit the way most of them are operating (NCL Pride of America is one of the few exceptions).

[sail7seas]

Is there anything wrong with a for profit business?

They are not in the business as a hobby.

Their parent company, Carnival Corporation, has to answer to their stockholders. Stockholders like successful, profitable businesses.

[sail7seas]

Here is a link to details of PVSA:

 

http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/welcome?.gx=1&.tm=1266850799&.rand=d1b2k9trrnmdf

 

You will note, if you read it, there are terms stated that for the ship to be U.S. flagged, it must be "U.S. built, owned and operated......."

 

 

Edited September 28, 2015 by sail7seas

[POA1]

Norwegian's first two American flagged ships, Pride of Hawaii & Pride of Aloha were built outside the US. The current American flagged ship, the Pride of America, has a USA built hull, but was outfitted at Lloyd Werft in Germany.

 

While there's argument that vessels are foreign flagged because the operators want to take advantage of lax labor, safety, and environmental laws, HAL's ships are all flagged in the Netherlands - not exactly a flag of convenience.

 

[grandgeezer]

Those token stops you reference are required by U.S. Law, specifically PVSA or Passenger Vessel Services Act. No foreign flagged vessel can carry paying passengers from one U.S. port to another without an intervening distant or near foreign port. I won't get into all the specifics but those stops in Mexico and Canada are mandatory.

Without getting into all the details of the law, of which I am not an expert, one of the requirements for a passenger vessel to be U.S. flagged is it must be built at a boat yard in the U.S. To my knowledge, there currently are none that are equipped to build such ships. (Someone please correct me if I am wrong.)

 

NCL Pride of America is US flagged and it never leaves Hawaii. It was built in Germany.

[POA1]

NCL Pride of America is US flagged and it never leaves Hawaii. It was built in Germany.

The hull was laid down at Litton Ingalls in Pascagoula, Mississippi. The hull was stretched and the ship was outfitted at Lloyd Werft in Germany. So it's at least partly American made.

[hrhdhd]

Is there anything wrong with a for profit business?

They are not in the business as a hobby.

Their parent company, Carnival Corporation, has to answer to their stockholders. Stockholders like successful, profitable businesses.

 

The HSC conversation is separate from the for-profit business conversation. Yes, HAL is in business to make a profit. I am not sure that that means they can't pay their crew this so-called "living wage." After all, if the current arrangement for paying them is in place so the CREW doesn't have to pay higher taxes (wouldn't that be nice for us all), then it has nothing to do with HAL's profit.

 

Except that they can charge lower fares. But many people would rather pay higher fares and not have a separate HSC. What happens on the other end is not a passenger's concern.

[Hows the Serenity]

The HSC conversation is separate from the for-profit business conversation. Yes, HAL is in business to make a profit. I am not sure that that means they can't pay their crew this so-called "living wage." After all, if the current arrangement for paying them is in place so the CREW doesn't have to pay higher taxes (wouldn't that be nice for us all), then it has nothing to do with HAL's profit.

 

 

 

Except that they can charge lower fares. But many people would rather pay higher fares and not have a separate HSC. What happens on the other end is not a passenger's concern.

 

 

Exactly my point.

Thank you

Chris

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[kalliekae]

Hotel Service Charge is never reflected on the invoice for our fare. It is only on the invoice for On Board Account.

 

It is likely a small increase on your invoice is for a change in port charges which is out of HAL's control. The port dictates what those fees will be.

 

 

Thank you for the explanation. I still say HAL should tell you why they are charging you more after you have made final payment. Would seem to save a lot of phone calls to Seattle if they would just offer an explanation when they send you an additional bill.

[sail7seas]

delete

Edited September 28, 2015 by sail7seas