Buying one ticket at a time for group

[MSMcDuffy]

Hi,

 

I've been monitoring the airfare for my trip next year (MSP to FLL) and noticed the past few days the price will go way down but only for one ticket. After the ticket is taken, the price goes back up but then the next day another single ticket goes back down (sometimes even lower in price than the previous day's single ticket). I'm thinking of getting them one at a time for our group of four.

 

Besides maybe not getting seats together (which we are totally fine with) OR the airfare skyrockets and never goes low again and we end up having to take different flights (which we could also be okay with, depending), is there anything else that could be of concern about doing this?

 

Thank you!

[GeezerCouple]

Hi,

 

I've been monitoring the airfare for my trip next year (MSP to FLL) and noticed the past few days the price will go way down but only for one ticket. After the ticket is taken, the price goes back up but then the next day another single ticket goes back down (sometimes even lower in price than the previous day's single ticket). I'm thinking of getting them one at a time for our group of four.

 

Besides maybe not getting seats together (which we are totally fine with) OR the airfare skyrockets and never goes low again and we end up having to take different flights (which we could also be okay with, depending), is there anything else that could be of concern about doing this?

 

Thank you!

 

Have you tried purchasing (or looking for fares for) each single ticket on a different laptop, or at least a different browser (Chrome, Safari, Internet Explorer, etc.)?

 

If you can find the lower pricing this way, each set up ready to go, and then just click, click, click, click...

It won't be quite that fast, but get them set up so it's almost "now pay for ticket" and then... go.

 

If the second browser doesn't show another low price, then this probably won't work. But we've seen the browsers work independently like this.

[slidergirl]

You are probably attempting to buy more tickets from the low fare bucket than there are seats allocated to that bucket. There are many buckets for an economy ticket and only so many seats are dumped into each bucket. If you are looking for a bunch of tickets for the same flight, you will be bumped up to the first bucket that contains enough seats for your reservation...

Buying one at a time may or may not yield the same price - it depends on whether the airline will add more seats to the bucket once the originals are sold.

Depending on how many people are in your "group", you might want to contact the group sales department of the airline to see about a bulk purchase. For Delta, the minimum group number is 10 (or it was back when I was in charge of logistics for my group of 13 friends going on a ski trip).

[GeezerCouple]

You are probably attempting to buy more tickets from the low fare bucket than there are seats allocated to that bucket. There are many buckets for an economy ticket and only so many seats are dumped into each bucket. If you are looking for a bunch of tickets for the same flight, you will be bumped up to the first bucket that contains enough seats for your reservation...

Buying one at a time may or may not yield the same price - it depends on whether the airline will add more seats to the bucket once the originals are sold.

Depending on how many people are in your "group", you might want to contact the group sales department of the airline to see about a bulk purchase. For Delta, the minimum group number is 10 (or it was back when I was in charge of logistics for my group of 13 friends going on a ski trip).

 

There are four in the group.

 

The problem might be as you describe it, but it certainly might not be.

 

We've often encountered this, and some people report that clearing cookies helps, because the system then cannot "remember" that there was a previous link to the airline, etc.

However, IF that is the problem, then clearing cookies would take more time than the procedure I suggested.

(When we encounter this, we just use 2 separate computers, as there are usually just two of us. Then, when we can see two separate tickets at low price on two separate screens, it's just "click, click", and we've got the two tickets.)

 

OP might not know for sure why this is occurring until actually trying to purchase, and starting the payment process for the first, and then searching on the other computer (or browser) for the next ticket. (This is so the reservation system "thinks" that that first ticket is "sold/gone".)

 

Another thing we've noticed even more often:

If we price ONE ticket, then the price for TWO tickets is priced higher than twice the cost of one.

There are some systems that, if there is only one left in the lower fare category, will then price BOTH at the higher category price.

This is another, but different, reason to purchase them separately.

[Clay Clayton]

Agree with the idea of using different laptops, that is what hubby and I have done. Not that it might not lead to a lower price if your group gets larger, but a year or so ago, I organized several work related trips for 60-80 people for trip. We went through United's group desk but rather than "saving" money over what an individual ticket cost, we paid more. As a PP mentioned, as buckets become empty, additional seats are added to them...but in a case of a group this large, United wasn't willing to put enough seats in the cheapest bucket. Rather we paid a price between the lowest and the full econ fare. We discussed buying them in onesies and twosies but decided that while we might "save" money on the tickets one and two, that ticket sixty three was going to likely cost a fortune. Obviously, YMMV!

[fbgd]

You are probably attempting to buy more tickets from the low fare bucket than there are seats allocated to that bucket. There are many buckets for an economy ticket and only so many seats are dumped into each bucket. If you are looking for a bunch of tickets for the same flight, you will be bumped up to the first bucket that contains enough seats for your reservation...

Buying one at a time may or may not yield the same price - it depends on whether the airline will add more seats to the bucket once the originals are sold.

 

This.

 

There is no airline conspiracy in action here. Buying at 2am during a gibbus moon on a Thursday won't make any difference either.

[FlyerTalker]

Where do I start?

Have you tried purchasing (or looking for fares for) each single ticket on a different laptop, or at least a different browser (Chrome, Safari, Internet Explorer, etc.)?

 

If you can find the lower pricing this way, each set up ready to go, and then just click, click, click, click...

It won't be quite that fast, but get them set up so it's almost "now pay for ticket" and then... go.

 

If the second browser doesn't show another low price, then this probably won't work. But we've seen the browsers work independently like this.

What you are trying to do is have two separate computers buying the same ticket at the same time. Won't work. There is a finite inventory in the buckets, and when one gets the "last ticket", the second will say "sorry" when you click that button. Now, if for some reason the airline has programmed their system to automatically refill an empty bucket (and I'm not sure why they would do that rather than have a larger number in the bucket to start with), then perhaps you can get the new addition with the second click. But without fully knowing the mechanics of the yield management algorithms bing used, you are just hoping.

We've often encountered this, and some people report that clearing cookies helps, because the system then cannot "remember" that there was a previous link to the airline, etc.

However, IF that is the problem, then clearing cookies would take more time than the procedure I suggested.

This is right up there with the "buy on Tuesday night" urban legend. It may be applicable for metasearch sites which use cached data for many of their searches (to save on their expense for queries to the GDS). But the airline itself uses realtime data, not cached, so the presense or non-presence of cookies has no bearing on the airline computer search.

Another thing we've noticed even more often:If we price ONE ticket, then the price for TWO tickets is priced higher than twice the cost of one. There are some systems that, if there is only one left in the lower fare category, will then price BOTH at the higher category price. This is another, but different, reason to purchase them separately.

This is because the systems are such that they draw ALL requested tickets from the same fare bucket - one PNR, one group of tickets all with the same characteristics including fare. If you use a tool like ExpertFlyer or KVS, you can see how many seats are in each bucket and know that buying more than that will bump you up to the bucket having the desired number. This is industry standard - when you find that two tickets is greater than double a single ticket, you know you are pulling from separate buckets. One nice thing about some airline sites is that they show you the code letter of the fare bucket being utilized. That can also be a tipoff.

 

To the OP: Whether or not you get seats together is a function of the seat allocation system, not whether you buy the tickets together under one reservation. Note that some fares do not allow for seat allocation in advance. As for fares skyrocketing, like all situations, you take your chances, especially if you are spacing over several days. Who knows what the yield management algorithms will do. Note the quote in my signature. Finally, if you end up with tickets with different prices for your "group", who gets which ticket price? Unless this a family, you can get some nasty interpersonal dynamics. Do you average, does the arranger get the cheapest, and so forth. More critical with multiple entities, but something to consider.

[Flatbush Flyer]

Could be only one ticket available or the inventory management strategy. In either case, it never hurts to call the airline web desk and explain that the site won't let you see all flights you've found in ITA Matrix (which is often true). If you're nice in your request, you can usually get a waiver of the telephone booking fee as well as access to a selection of flights that have multiple points seats available.

[MSMcDuffy]

There are four in the group.

 

Thanks for catching that. I probably shouldn't have used the word "group" as it usually implies more than just four people.

 

I'll try using different browsers since I only have a laptop at home and computer at work.

 

Thank you everyone for the replies! :)

[GeezerCouple]

Where do I start?

 

What you are trying to do is have two separate computers buying the same ticket at the same time. Won't work. There is a finite inventory in the buckets, and when one gets the "last ticket", the second will say "sorry" when you click that button. Now, if for some reason the airline has programmed their system to automatically refill an empty bucket (and I'm not sure why they would do that rather than have a larger number in the bucket to start with), then perhaps you can get the new addition with the second click. But without fully knowing the mechanics of the yield management algorithms bing used, you are just hoping.

This is right up there with the "buy on Tuesday night" urban legend. It may be applicable for metasearch sites which use cached data for many of their searches (to save on their expense for queries to the GDS). But the airline itself uses realtime data, not cached, so the presense or non-presence of cookies has no bearing on the airline computer search.This is because the systems are such that they draw ALL requested tickets from the same fare bucket - one PNR, one group of tickets all with the same characteristics including fare. If you use a tool like ExpertFlyer or KVS, you can see how many seats are in each bucket and know that buying more than that will bump you up to the bucket having the desired number. This is industry standard - when you find that two tickets is greater than double a single ticket, you know you are pulling from separate buckets. One nice thing about some airline sites is that they show you the code letter of the fare bucket being utilized. That can also be a tipoff.

 

To the OP: Whether or not you get seats together is a function of the seat allocation system, not whether you buy the tickets together under one reservation. Note that some fares do not allow for seat allocation in advance. As for fares skyrocketing, like all situations, you take your chances, especially if you are spacing over several days. Who knows what the yield management algorithms will do. Note the quote in my signature. Finally, if you end up with tickets with different prices for your "group", who gets which ticket price? Unless this a family, you can get some nasty interpersonal dynamics. Do you average, does the arranger get the cheapest, and so forth. More critical with multiple entities, but something to consider.

 

All we know is that if we purchase on two computers, we get two lower-cost tickets... usually. Obviously IF we've used one computer to grab the last remaining seat in a lower cost grouping, then the second ticket will indeed be higher, no matter how we do it.

 

But sometimes (and more often than not), we do get both tickets at the lower price, when trying to get them both on the same computer, pricing 2 at a time or pricing 2 sequentially... we would NOT get both at the same low price. (This comparison is for the same exact flight. We do not complete the purchases on a single computer, but then use a second computer for the second ticket.)

 

We don't space this over days. We do both purchases almost simultaneously, within a minute or two.

 

Our understanding, which may or may not be an accurate description of the "problem", is that it has to do with the cookies stored on the computer.

But "what the reason is" isn't our main concern/interest. Getting both tickets at the low price, or at least doing our best, IS our concern.

 

Apparently Clay Clayton has been doing the same thing, with the same results.

 

It doesn't always guarantee two lower-cost tickets, but much of the time, if we see a second ticket at higher price (or two tix at more than twice the low cost of a single), at least we have a chance of getting the second at a low price.

Sometimes it doesn't make any difference, but it's easy enough to try under this circumstance, for what could be a noticeable amount of money.

 

We aren't invoking magic or smoke and mirrors or phases of the moon.

We always purchase directly on the airline website.

Edited November 2, 2016 by GeezerCouple

[MSMcDuffy]

To the OP: Whether or not you get seats together is a function of the seat allocation system, not whether you buy the tickets together under one reservation. Note that some fares do not allow for seat allocation in advance. As for fares skyrocketing, like all situations, you take your chances, especially if you are spacing over several days. Who knows what the yield management algorithms will do. Note the quote in my signature. Finally, if you end up with tickets with different prices for your "group", who gets which ticket price? Unless this a family, you can get some nasty interpersonal dynamics. Do you average, does the arranger get the cheapest, and so forth. More critical with multiple entities, but something to consider.

 

Thanks for all of your expertise! (I wrote my last comment before reading your post) We are relatives and will average out the cost, no problem there. I was more concerned about spacing the tickets out over time (days or possibly weeks) as my experiences have been best fares around 2 - 3 mo's before trip. I've never done that before but have purchased tickets separately on the same day as I'm the travel planner among my friends/relatives and have made purchases on separate cc's.

[Gardyloo]

You can suspect cookies all you want, but the fact is that fares are adjusted dynamically, and have nothing to do with cookies.

 

Take the OP's MSP-FLL trip. Don't know the dates, so I just plugged Jan 20 out, Feb 2 back, with the ticket purchased in mid-November, and queried Expert Flyer to give me a list of applicable fares, using only American Airlines.

 

There are 56 separate fare buckets for those dates on AA alone, with prices before taxes ranging from $290 round trip to $15,816. No, that's not a typo. Delta and United will have a similar number of fares for the same "city pair." Hundreds in total.

 

The revenue (or yield) management computers at AA constantly review the takedown of seats on a flight, and allocate certain numbers of seats into each of those 56 buckets. The search and booking sites will default to look for the cheapest bucket in which the number of seats requested is equal to or fewer than the number of seats currently sitting in that bucket. If the buyer wants 3 seats but there are only two in that bucket, then the computer will bump the fare to the next higher bucket, assuming there are enough seats in that one.

 

Somebody else might come along two minutes later, or at the exact same moment, and ask for fewer seats, say just one, and they'll get the cheaper fare.

 

Then anywhere from nanosecond to a day later, the YM programs will re-visit that flight and, through top secret algorithms, decide if another seat or two should be released back into the bucket that was "empty" previously (i.e. sold out.) It will do so again throughout the life of the booking cycle. However those same algorithms will be structured so that the closer one gets to the flight date, fewer and fewer of the cheapest buckets will have seats allocated to them, until only the more expensive ones are left.

 

For example, here are the available buckets on an AA flight from MSP to PHL leaving on Jan 20 at 1:45 PM - F7 A7 P0 Y7 B0 H7 K7 M7 L7 W7 G3 V7 S2 N3 Q0 O0. Generally the price goes down as you move left-to-right, and with AA "7" means "7 or more." On AA, F, A and P are first class cabin fares, the rest are in coach.

 

So in this case someone wanting to buy 4 seats in one transaction wouldn't get the cheapest "N" or "S" seats, they'd have to purchase seats in the "V" bucket, for which the fare is roughly $100 higher than in the cheapest "S" or "N" buckets. If they bought 2 instead of 4, and relied upon the robots reinstating some cheap seats the next day, then they could get the cheaper fare; of course the robots might not agree. Also, some people will make a booking but put it on hold for 24-48 hours (allowed) which will be interpreted by the computers as "sold" until either the tickets are actually paid for, or the reservation expires, in which case the seats MIGHT be put back into the cheap bucket, or else just put into a higher bucket.

 

However, as the date moves closer and the number of unsold seats declines, these revenue-maximizing programs won't do any such thing, and in fact they may zero out even some of the middle-range buckets, forcing buyers to pay higher prices.

 

Trying to outsmart these programs is a fool's errand. It doesn't have anything to do with cookies or days of the week, it all has to do with supply and demand, and very fast and all-seeing computers in Fort Worth, Atlanta or Chicago.

[GeezerCouple]

You can suspect cookies all you want, but the fact is that fares are adjusted dynamically, and have nothing to do with cookies.

 

Take the OP's MSP-FLL trip. Don't know the dates, so I just plugged Jan 20 out, Feb 2 back, with the ticket purchased in mid-November, and queried Expert Flyer to give me a list of applicable fares, using only American Airlines.

 

There are 56 separate fare buckets for those dates on AA alone, with prices before taxes ranging from $290 round trip to $15,816. No, that's not a typo. Delta and United will have a similar number of fares for the same "city pair." Hundreds in total.

 

The revenue (or yield) management computers at AA constantly review the takedown of seats on a flight, and allocate certain numbers of seats into each of those 56 buckets. The search and booking sites will default to look for the cheapest bucket in which the number of seats requested is equal to or fewer than the number of seats currently sitting in that bucket. If the buyer wants 3 seats but there are only two in that bucket, then the computer will bump the fare to the next higher bucket, assuming there are enough seats in that one.

 

Somebody else might come along two minutes later, or at the exact same moment, and ask for fewer seats, say just one, and they'll get the cheaper fare.

 

Then anywhere from nanosecond to a day later, the YM programs will re-visit that flight and, through top secret algorithms, decide if another seat or two should be released back into the bucket that was "empty" previously (i.e. sold out.) It will do so again throughout the life of the booking cycle. However those same algorithms will be structured so that the closer one gets to the flight date, fewer and fewer of the cheapest buckets will have seats allocated to them, until only the more expensive ones are left.

 

For example, here are the available buckets on an AA flight from MSP to PHL leaving on Jan 20 at 1:45 PM - F7 A7 P0 Y7 B0 H7 K7 M7 L7 W7 G3 V7 S2 N3 Q0 O0. Generally the price goes down as you move left-to-right, and with AA "7" means "7 or more." On AA, F, A and P are first class cabin fares, the rest are in coach.

 

So in this case someone wanting to buy 4 seats in one transaction wouldn't get the cheapest "N" or "S" seats, they'd have to purchase seats in the "V" bucket, for which the fare is roughly $100 higher than in the cheapest "S" or "N" buckets. If they bought 2 instead of 4, and relied upon the robots reinstating some cheap seats the next day, then they could get the cheaper fare; of course the robots might not agree. Also, some people will make a booking but put it on hold for 24-48 hours (allowed) which will be interpreted by the computers as "sold" until either the tickets are actually paid for, or the reservation expires, in which case the seats MIGHT be put back into the cheap bucket, or else just put into a higher bucket.

 

However, as the date moves closer and the number of unsold seats declines, these revenue-maximizing programs won't do any such thing, and in fact they may zero out even some of the middle-range buckets, forcing buyers to pay higher prices.

 

Trying to outsmart these programs is a fool's errand. It doesn't have anything to do with cookies or days of the week, it all has to do with supply and demand, and very fast and all-seeing computers in Fort Worth, Atlanta or Chicago.

 

Thank you very much.

This does give a better explanation than others (and certainly better than phases of the moon, although <joke alert!> we've never been able to completely rule out sunspots ;)

 

This quote from you (Gardyloo) above, could easily explain it:

 

"... Then anywhere from nanosecond to a day later, the YM programs will re-visit that flight and, through top secret algorithms, decide if another seat or two should be released back into the bucket that was "empty" previously (i.e. sold out.) It will do so again throughout the life of the booking cycle. ..."

[emphasis/bolding added]

 

This could be precisely what is going on, especially if that one/first low cost seat has in fact just been purchased, by us or someone else.

It could probably occur if the software "sees" the purchase "in process" even if not completed. The software does "hold" the seat for a short time to allow completion of the sale.

 

And as I also mentioned, it doesn't always happen (getting the second seat for the lower price using a second computer but not with the same).

 

I never said it *was* cookies, just that's what we understood from others who often mention cookies in this context... quoting from us (GeezerCouple) posting separately previously:

 

"...Our understanding, which may or may not be an accurate description of the "problem", is that it has to do with the cookies stored on the computer.

But "what the reason is" isn't our main concern/interest. Getting both tickets at the low price, or at least doing our best, IS our concern...."

 

But there is *something* going on such that a different computer/browser sometimes makes a difference. We've played around with this quite a bit when we first noticed it, and still do if we have time and are curious if it's "still" happening. We don't need to "check" those times we get two seats at the same low price straightaway.

 

Thanks, Gardyloo.

This might be the closest general explanation as to how the software does operate such that this phenomenon occurs (and recurs).

Only a couple of minutes (at maximum) is "wasted" if the second seat still prices higher. It's definitely worth it.

[Ashland]

Thanks to "all" of you...even though much of your detailed info was overwhelming...so I guess I don't have to worry about "cookies" any longer.

[waterbug123]

Hi,

Besides maybe not getting seats together (which we are totally fine with) OR the airfare skyrockets and never goes low again and we end up having to take different flights (which we could also be okay with, depending), is there anything else that could be of concern about doing this?

 

In the event of irrops (irregular operations, i.e. flight delays or cancellations) on travel day, you will be on separate reservations, so there's really no obligation to keep you all together if you have to be re-accommodated on different flights. But you said it's not a problem if you end up on different flights so maybe that's not a concern.

 

We are relatives and will average out the cost, no problem there. I was more concerned about spacing the tickets out over time (days or possibly weeks) as my experiences have been best fares around 2 - 3 mo's before trip. I've never done that before but have purchased tickets separately on the same day as I'm the travel planner among my friends/relatives and have made purchases on separate cc's.

 

If you are happy doing this, more power to you, but I find it's generally easier, when planning a group trip, to tell everyone they are on their own for air. Or at the very least, I say "We'll let you know when we've booked our tickets and forward our itinerary to you right away. Can't promise you'll get the same price but you can let me know if you want me to book the same flights for you." If you are just 2 couples maybe it's not that big a deal but I'm coordinating a trip for 12 people next fall and there is no way in hell that I'm making air reservations for everyone, or trying to coordinate it so we all fly together or average prices so we all pay the same or whatever!