Do all NCL ships have a brig aka jail?

[Markanddonna]

Kevmoley- good one!

 

I was on a transatlantic where a husband and wife got into a fight and did a lot of damage to their cabin. The husband was kept in the brig and the wife in their cabin with a security person stationed outside their door. They were both delivered to the authorities when we reached the next port.

[datolim]

Kevmoley- good one!

 

I was on a transatlantic where a husband and wife got into a fight and did a lot of damage to their cabin. The husband was kept in the brig and the wife in their cabin with a security person stationed outside their door. They were both delivered to the authorities when we reached the next port.

I am just curious. What can the authorities do to them. Since the incident happened in international waters what legal right can the authorities exercise on this matter. What is the maritime law if any.

[Linda the Book Lover]

I am just curious. What can the authorities do to them. Since the incident happened in international waters what legal right can the authorities exercise on this matter. What is the maritime law if any.

 

I was also and found this old answer:

https://www.quora.com/Maritime-Law-What-is-the-legal-authority-of-the-captain-of-a-ship

 

I also found out that on RCCL what the person eats in there: https://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1765055

[adam_s_allen]

Only 1 way to find out for sure

[ncklhaus]

Just off the Breakaway on Friday and while we were going through customs (they were checking my roses for bugs) and they brought a woman through with her hands cuffed behind her back. I don't know if she was in the brig or not, but it was interesting.

[datolim]

I was also and found this old answer:

https://www.quora.com/Maritime-Law-What-is-the-legal-authority-of-the-captain-of-a-ship

 

I also found out that on RCCL what the person eats in there: https://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1765055

Thanks for the reply. The reason why I ask is this very dangerous show put on by this cruise line in Asia, Genting Dream.

 

 

https://alvinology.com/2016/11/29/ten-unique-features-on-board-dream-cruises-genting-dream/.

look under item 9 China got talent.

 

 

Here is my comment from the local forum.

 

 

Yea, talk about the knife throwing act/show.

How could any body in their right mind put on a show like that. Yes only Genting can. What if the guy have an off day. Consequences would be horrendous. Life or death.

As far as nothing happens yet the husband and wife team is doing fine so far and making good money.

But a show like that would never been approved in the Western countries.

It is a senseless act with potential dire consequences.

No insurance company would insure this show against very serious body injury or potential death. But why would Genting care if something goes wrong.

 

My question is would the cruise line have any liability for death or serious body injury.

[fshagan]

Yea, talk about the knife throwing act/show.

How could any body in their right mind put on a show like that. Yes only Genting can. What if the guy have an off day. Consequences would be horrendous. Life or death.

 

Its a trick, usually performed

, but there are numerous variations, including throwing the knife to the side of the target, five feet or so off to the side and behind your point of view.

 

The only people injured in this type of "impalement art" are the amateurs who think it is actually relying on the aim of the knife thrower.

[datolim]

Its a trick, usually performed

, but there are numerous variations, including throwing the knife to the side of the target, five feet or so off to the side and behind your point of view.

 

The only people injured in this type of "impalement art" are the amateurs who think it is actually relying on the aim of the knife thrower.

Yes you are right. Never knew this is a magic show. Thanks.

[HokiePoq]

Interesting topic....inquiring minds. Saw the brig on the Escape platinum tour (not inside), just the location. All that was said is that a large cruise ship is like a small city.....gets all kinds of people.

Have been lucky not to encounter any brig worthy people on any of our cruises.

[DarkJedi]

I am just curious. What can the authorities do to them. Since the incident happened in international waters what legal right can the authorities exercise on this matter. What is the maritime law if any.

 

If a commercial cruise vessel departs and returns to FL the State of FL exercises by mutual agreement with all cruise lines operating in the State of FL all laws, law enforcement, and criminal standards of the community on board the vessel while not directly in foreign waters.

 

This agreement was reached after it became known that it was common for cruise lines to dump crew members that had attacked passengers off in foreign ports.Pretty sure most of the other port states followed the same example. Not exactly sure how it would relate to a one way trip, technically while in international waters they are subject to the authority of which ever nation they are under the flag of.

[chengkp75]

I am just curious. What can the authorities do to them. Since the incident happened in international waters what legal right can the authorities exercise on this matter. What is the maritime law if any.

 

The "coastal state" where persons are put ashore after committing a crime on a ship in international waters is covered by the UNCLOS (United Nations Convention on the Law Of the Sea), and allows the coastal state to arrest and try the persons, under the coastal state's laws, at the request of the Captain.

 

Thanks for the reply. The reason why I ask is this very dangerous show put on by this cruise line in Asia, Genting Dream.

 

 

https://alvinology.com/2016/11/29/ten-unique-features-on-board-dream-cruises-genting-dream/.

look under item 9 China got talent.

 

 

Here is my comment from the local forum.

 

 

Yea, talk about the knife throwing act/show.

How could any body in their right mind put on a show like that. Yes only Genting can. What if the guy have an off day. Consequences would be horrendous. Life or death.

As far as nothing happens yet the husband and wife team is doing fine so far and making good money.

But a show like that would never been approved in the Western countries.

It is a senseless act with potential dire consequences.

No insurance company would insure this show against very serious body injury or potential death. But why would Genting care if something goes wrong.

 

My question is would the cruise line have any liability for death or serious body injury.

 

Actually, these knife throwing acts are done all the time in the Western countries, even on the "got talent" TV shows. They are perfectly legal. In the case of Genting, and I assume all other venues, there is a contract signed between the act and Genting removing any liability to Genting for injuries or death caused by the act.

[chengkp75]

If a commercial cruise vessel departs and returns to FL the State of FL exercises by mutual agreement with all cruise lines operating in the State of FL all laws, law enforcement, and criminal standards of the community on board the vessel while not directly in foreign waters.

 

This agreement was reached after it became known that it was common for cruise lines to dump crew members that had attacked passengers off in foreign ports.Pretty sure most of the other port states followed the same example. Not exactly sure how it would relate to a one way trip, technically while in international waters they are subject to the authority of which ever nation they are under the flag of.

 

Well, I'll quibble with this post. While a ship is in the territorial waters of any country, that "coastal state's" laws apply to the vessel as well as the laws of the flag state. The general principal applied to untangle this overlap of jurisdiction is that the "port state" or "coastal state's" laws are not enforced for actions onboard the vessel, even in port, unless the action "disrupts the harmony or safety of the port". So, yes, even without a "mutual agreement" (which I'm not sure is true, could you cite a source?), while in Florida waters the ship is under Florida jurisdiction. However, when in the territorial waters of another nation, so not "directly in international waters", Florida law would not apply, and the law of the nation whose waters the ship is in would apply.

 

The US has also announced a form of extra-territiorialism, by demanding that crimes against US citizens that happen upon international waters are to be the jurisdiction of the US.

[datolim]

The "coastal state" where persons are put ashore after committing a crime on a ship in international waters is covered by the UNCLOS (United Nations Convention on the Law Of the Sea), and allows the coastal state to arrest and try the persons, under the coastal state's laws, at the request of the Captain.

 

 

Actually, these knife throwing acts are done all the time in the Western countries, even on the "got talent" TV shows. They are perfectly legal. In the case of Genting, and I assume all other venues, there is a contract signed between the act and Genting removing any liability to Genting for injuries or death caused by the act.

 

Thanks for the clarification on the "coastal state".

I am sure it is made perfectly clear to the performers that they responsible for any mishap or harm to themselves.

I don't know if the paper the performers sign is a contract in law as I don't know whose jurisdiction it would come under and if any lawyer would take a case like that.

[chengkp75]

Thanks for the clarification on the "coastal state".

I am sure it is made perfectly clear to the performers that they responsible for any mishap or harm to themselves.

I don't know if the paper the performers sign is a contract in law as I don't know whose jurisdiction it would come under and if any lawyer would take a case like that.

Not sure the paper that the

 

The contract the performers sign is just as legal as the employment contract the crew sign with the Captain. It is the jurisdiction of the "flag state", or possibly if it is a corporate contract it would fall under the country where the cruise line is incorporated. The lawyers who would take the case would be "admiralty lawyers", who specialize in international law of the sea, and the national laws of the flag states and port states, and the application of them.

[bbryan5]

Who cares! Enjoy your cruise! Forget everyone else! Geez!

 

These questions continue to baffle my mind. Do you plan on going in Brig? If not, focus on other things that will behoove passengers rather than stirring "hornets nest".

 

This thread was totally not worthy of responses. JMO

 

But yet you responded.. Interesting...

[datolim]

Well, I'll quibble with this post. While a ship is in the territorial waters of any country, that "coastal state's" laws apply to the vessel as well as the laws of the flag state. The general principal applied to untangle this overlap of jurisdiction is that the "port state" or "coastal state's" laws are not enforced for actions onboard the vessel, even in port, unless the action "disrupts the harmony or safety of the port". So, yes, even without a "mutual agreement" (which I'm not sure is true, could you cite a source?), while in Florida waters the ship is under Florida jurisdiction. However, when in the territorial waters of another nation, so not "directly in international waters", Florida law would not apply, and the law of the nation whose waters the ship is in would apply.

 

The US has also announced a form of extra-territiorialism, by demanding that crimes against US citizens that happen upon international waters are to be the jurisdiction of the US.

Yes I remember some years ago when the Singapore Airline plane crashed on the runway in Taipei airport the victims decided to sue in the US court. So US has jurisdiction as the plane was heading to the US and the US courts are assumed to be more generous than the Singapore court.

[sanger727]

I’ll give my 2 cents. Though that’s probably all it’s worth since I have never worked on a cruise ship. Legally speaking, there is a difference between ‘detaining’ somebody, which I assume is what they will call it when they keep someone in their room; vs ‘arresting’ someone, and there’s no other name for putting someone in the brig. It appears they can ‘detain’ you, simply for being sick. So any minor minor violation that thee police aren’t able to arrest for or wouldn’t bother with (like the nephew drinking under age) would probably HAVE to result in detainment.

 

Technically speaking, police and people acting in those roles every day commit felonies every day. They kidnap people (take them to jail), rob people (take property off them), and assault people (use force when necessary). These things are not crimes due to the powers given to the police and they fact that they are acting within those powers and following US Supreme Court rulings by not violating people’s ‘rights’. Once you start ‘arresting’ people for non-arrestable offenses like being sick or in what our state calls minor misdemeanors (crimes that are technically crimes but carry no jail time so you can’t be arrested for them). You run into being accused and potentially guilty of ‘kidnapping’ people.

 

So my best guess is that if the situation doesn’t call for the police being called and you being taken to jail when the ship arrives in port, you would be detained in your room. If the situation calls for you being arrested upon arrival in port, you would be taken to the brig. Obviously the husband and wife needing to be separated is an exception to that. They probably don’t have the need for multiple brigs and there’s for needed to keep one in the room just to keep them separated.

 

 

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[chengkp75]

Yes I remember some years ago when the Singapore Airline plane crashed on the runway in Taipei airport the victims decided to sue in the US court. So US has jurisdiction as the plane was heading to the US and the US courts are assumed to be more generous than the Singapore court.

 

That would not be the same thing, since the crash happened in a sovereign country. Litigants frequently try to change venue to a "friendlier" venue, but whether the courts in that venue actually accept jurisdiction or not is a different question. My guess is that since it was not a US airline, and the incident happened outside the US, the US courts refused to handle the case, unless there is some language in the Warsaw Convention (regarding the liability of common carriers), and I don't claim to be an expert on air travel, as to the applicable jurisdiction.

[chengkp75]

I’ll give my 2 cents. Though that’s probably all it’s worth since I have never worked on a cruise ship. Legally speaking, there is a difference between ‘detaining’ somebody, which I assume is what they will call it when they keep someone in their room; vs ‘arresting’ someone, and there’s no other name for putting someone in the brig. It appears they can ‘detain’ you, simply for being sick. So any minor minor violation that thee police aren’t able to arrest for or wouldn’t bother with (like the nephew drinking under age) would probably HAVE to result in detainment.

 

Technically speaking, police and people acting in those roles every day commit felonies every day. They kidnap people (take them to jail), rob people (take property off them), and assault people (use force when necessary). These things are not crimes due to the powers given to the police and they fact that they are acting within those powers and following US Supreme Court rulings by not violating people’s ‘rights’. Once you start ‘arresting’ people for non-arrestable offenses like being sick or in what our state calls minor misdemeanors (crimes that are technically crimes but carry no jail time so you can’t be arrested for them). You run into being accused and potentially guilty of ‘kidnapping’ people.

 

So my best guess is that if the situation doesn’t call for the police being called and you being taken to jail when the ship arrives in port, you would be detained in your room. If the situation calls for you being arrested upon arrival in port, you would be taken to the brig. Obviously the husband and wife needing to be separated is an exception to that. They probably don’t have the need for multiple brigs and there’s for needed to keep one in the room just to keep them separated.

 

 

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First off, ship's security personnel do not have legal authority to "arrest" anyone, but they can "detain" people at the direction of the Captain. International law, as well as the cruise ticket contract, gives the Captain the legal right to detain anyone for either a specified number of reasons, or for "any reason the Captain decides". Cruise ship brigs tend to be very small, in some cases not much more than a large bathroom, and can only hold one person. Therefore, in cases like the domestic dispute mentioned previously, where two people need to be detained, one would be in a cabin. Also, detaining in a cabin, for a non-violent incident would be preferable over the brig. The only time that confinement to cabin is not used routinely is with a balcony cabin, for obvious reasons.

[sanger727]

First off, ship's security personnel do not have legal authority to "arrest" anyone, but they can "detain" people at the direction of the Captain. International law, as well as the cruise ticket contract, gives the Captain the legal right to detain anyone for either a specified number of reasons, or for "any reason the Captain decides". Cruise ship brigs tend to be very small, in some cases not much more than a large bathroom, and can only hold one person. Therefore, in cases like the domestic dispute mentioned previously, where two people need to be detained, one would be in a cabin. Also, detaining in a cabin, for a non-violent incident would be preferable over the brig. The only time that confinement to cabin is not used routinely is with a balcony cabin, for obvious reasons.

 

 

 

Alright. As I said, never worked on a cruise ship. Just making a guess. Though, if I was somewhere on the ship and security personnel told me to go to the brig with them. And if I said no they grabbed me and forced me to the brig. I have a hard time defining that as anything other than kidnapping (or whatever the appropriate offense is in Florida, not an expert on Florida law) if they don’t have arrest powers. Which makes having a brig utterly useless.

 

If they are following anything close to US law. And they may not be, but if they are. You cannot move someone from where they are to a new place against their will under the theory of ‘detainment’. If you are forced to go with someone who is acting as someone enforcing laws, you sure as heck better be under arrest.

 

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Edited December 25, 2017 by sanger727

[datolim]

The contract the performers sign is just as legal as the employment contract the crew sign with the Captain. It is the jurisdiction of the "flag state", or possibly if it is a corporate contract it would fall under the country where the cruise line is incorporated. The lawyers who would take the case would be "admiralty lawyers", who specialize in international law of the sea, and the national laws of the flag states and port states, and the application of them.

Sound nice and dandy.

If there is any potential liability why wouldn't the contract be sign under the "flag state". Then there is the practice of law in the US vs the rest of world. Who has not heard of the class action suit against McDonald for making the fat.

The attorney as you call them work on a contingency basis. The US has a tradition of "bounty hunters". In Singapore and Panama or other places this is illegal. You have to pay the lawyer first and they would assess your ability to pay them and the other party cost and court costs if you lose. Having said that the courts are not in the habit of making outsize damages payments unlike the US courts. I have nothing against the US attorney. It is the system that they have inherited.

The practice of law outside the US is a steep learning curve for US centric minds.

Edited December 25, 2017 by SG007

[chengkp75]

Alright. As I said, never worked on a cruise ship. Just making a guess. Though, if I was somewhere on the ship and security personnel told me to go to the brig with them. And if I said no they grabbed me and forced me to the brig. I have a hard time defining that as anything other than kidnapping (or whatever the appropriate offense is in Florida, not an expert on Florida law) if they don’t have arrest powers. Which makes having a brig utterly useless.

 

If they are following anything close to US law. And they may not be, but if they are. You cannot move someone from where they are to a new place against their will under the theory of ‘detainment’. If you are forced to go with someone who is acting as someone enforcing laws, you sure as heck better be under arrest.

 

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International law, and by extension the enabling legislation in all flag states give "supreme authority" onboard the ship, meaning that under the flag state's law, the Captain can do whatever he/she needs to do to ensure the safety of the crew, passengers, cargo, vessel, and environment. This is even true for US flag vessels. This supreme authority entails detaining someone, moving them against their will, and even restraining them in cuffs, if the Captain decides it is necessary.

 

As for detention, even US law enforcement officers can detain a person, and move them to different locations, without making an arrest. To detain someone, all the police need is a reasonable doubt to restrict your movements.

[sanger727]

International law, and by extension the enabling legislation in all flag states give "supreme authority" onboard the ship, meaning that under the flag state's law, the Captain can do whatever he/she needs to do to ensure the safety of the crew, passengers, cargo, vessel, and environment. This is even true for US flag vessels. This supreme authority entails detaining someone, moving them against their will, and even restraining them in cuffs, if the Captain decides it is necessary.

 

 

 

As for detention, even US law enforcement officers can detain a person, and move them to different locations, without making an arrest. To detain someone, all the police need is a reasonable doubt to restrict your movements.

 

 

 

You are mistaken about US law enforcement. Worked in the field for 10 years. When a crime is being investigated, to take someone against their will without probable cause to arrest is a bad move. More than likely that will be determined by a judge to be an unlawful arrest and any evidence you gain from doing so will be suppressed.

 

 

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[chengkp75]

Sound nice and dandy.

If there is any potential liability why wouldn't the contract be sign under the "flag state". Then there is the practice of law in the US vs the rest of world. Who has not heard of the class action suit against McDonald for making the fat.

The attorney as you call them work on a contingency basis. The US has a tradition of "bounty hunters". In Singapore and Panama or other places this is illegal. You have to pay the lawyer first and they would assess your ability to pay them and the other party cost and court costs if you lose. Having said that the courts are not in the habit of making outsize damages payments unlike the US courts. I have nothing against the US attorney. It is the system that they have inherited.

The practice of law outside the US is a steep learning curve for US centric minds.

 

It depends on whether the contract is signed with the ship's Captain, like the crew's employment contracts, which would be under the flag state, since the Captain is the owner's legal representative on the ship. If the contract with the entertainer is for several ships in the fleet (since each ship is owned by a different company under the cruise line umbrella), it would be signed between the entertainer and the corporate offices, and would be based on the country of incorporation of the cruise line.

 

Whether the lawyers are working on a contingency basis or the system you describe as being the case in Singapore (and I don't consider myself to be "US centric with regards to the law of the sea), the case would be taken or not, based on whether the lawyer felt the case had merit. Even those "bounty hunters" will not receive a penny if they lose, while your lawyers are paid in advance, so not sure which system is better for the plaintiff. The question of whether or not outsized awards are made by US courts is also outside the argument, since even if the US felt there was jurisdiction, it would be in an admiralty court, which handles strictly admiralty cases, the precedents of awards made by other courts in other US jurisdictions does not apply.

[chengkp75]

You are mistaken about US law enforcement. Worked in the field for 10 years. When a crime is being investigated, to take someone against their will without probable cause to arrest is a bad move. More than likely that will be determined by a judge to be an unlawful arrest and any evidence you gain from doing so will be suppressed.

 

 

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Okay, lets go with probable cause rather than reasonable doubt, as the proper term, but you can still detain someone at the crime scene, place them in a squad car, take them to the police station, and even take them from room to room in the station, all against the person's will, and still not have "arrested" them, only "detained" them, and you are not committing "kidnapping" because you have been given the legal authority to do so (as you stated in your previous post). Just as the Captain has been given the legal authority to do whatever he/she feels is necessary for the safety of the vessel, crew, passengers, cargo, and environment, whether or not it is "an arrestable offense" or not. Even the CDC has the authority to contain people against their will "for being sick".

 

While it has modified in today's reality of instant communication, the Captain's authority remains mostly as it has for centuries, that he is God almighty onboard his ship. Ship Captains have been granted what is called "overriding authority" by the IMO through the ISM (International Safety Management) system, which all maritime nations have enabled with their own legislation (even the US), so the Captain is given the overriding authority to make all decisions regarding the safety of the vessel, crew, passengers, cargo, and the environment.