Why should I tip if pre paid gratuities?

[dogs4fun]

We tip for excellent service above and beyond what is expected.

[Icon901]

On 3/9/2019 at 4:05 PM, misguy said:

I do think that tipping the bartender in cash can improve the quality of your drinks, especially if you frequent the same bar.  

 

On 1/31/2019 at 4:03 AM, Ergates The Ant said:

I do note that many US cruisers do like to do this as a bribe for preferential service, a practice I find very wrong, as it implies that the rest of the customers will get a lesser service than they have paid for.

As a former Bartender and likely a "younger" member here who still frequents bars and such establishments in both the US and Europe (albeit outside of the cruise world)... I wanted to chime in. 

Yes.. more often than not tipping will significantly improve the quality of your drinks. Getting you a 3...4...or 5oz pour vs a standard 1.5oz pour. For example. I'm not sure if cruises free-pour or if they are tightly metered....I'm guessing the former. 

And yes, in most places giving a nice tip up front will make you "memorable" to the server or bartender, and will more often than not result in expedient service. Again, unsure about on cruises but based on what I've read it seems to work there too.

 

Regarding the ethics behind that, If I've spent $4000 for a week long vacation, and I enjoy drinking as part of that vacation... A $20 investment to a couple key servers/bartenders up front is a trivial sum to dramatically improve my service during that week (assuming a server/bartender will be a regular for the week). Right or wrong... that's how I see it.

 

I absolutely do NOT blame folks who don't want to do it.. and IMO no staff should feel ill will toward those that don't. However, I WILL likely get my drinks first :) 


 

Edited July 18, 2019 by Icon901

[navybankerteacher]

15 hours ago, Icon901 said:

 

...

Yes.. more often than not tipping will significantly improve the quality of your drinks. Getting you a 3...4...or 5oz pour vs a standard 1.5oz pour. For example. I'm not sure if cruises free-pour or if they are tightly metered....I'm guessing the former. 

 

...

 

Do you really think cruise lines do not meter their alcohol - especially when you seem to believe that their bar tenders will give “...a 3...4... or 5oz pour vs a standard 1.5oz pour.” in exchange for a $20 or so you might have slipped as a bribe?

 

They are aware that a lot of people think that a bribe will buy “better” service — and they are smart enough to recognize that their liquor inventory is a major earner - and certainly worth monitoring.

[Icon901]

13 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

Do you really think cruise lines do not meter their alcohol - especially when you seem to believe that their bar tenders will give “...a 3...4... or 5oz pour vs a standard 1.5oz pour.” in exchange for a $20 or so you might have slipped as a bribe?

 

They are aware that a lot of people think that a bribe will buy “better” service — and they are smart enough to recognize that their liquor inventory is a major earner - and certainly worth monitoring.

Liquor inventory is a major earner for EVERY bar. In fact, probably MORESO for land based bars.. the ship has other sources of revenue. 

 

If you havent worked behind a bar you likely won’t understand, but unless you have metered spouts and watch staff like hawks, chances are very high drink quality is varying significantly.

 

Do Celebrity (or other) cruise ships use metered spouts that automatically cut off at 1oz or 1.5oz? 

 

Most if not all freepour bartenders make stiffer drinks for friends and good tippers. Bartending 101. Take care of those who take care of you.

 

If booze inventory is watched closely, you then are forced to make up for what extra they give out... meaning lighter pours for the non tippers to make up for stronger pours for the tipper.

 

Even if Cameras/patrons are watching for that proper 2 count pour, you can hold your finger over the tip of the spout to slow the flow. Another old trick is putting a splash of booze on the surface or down the straw to make that first sip taste like the tender hooked you up. 

 

This all happens every day at almost any bar.. and I’m confident without ever having set foot on a ship yet, that a well tipped bartender will serve the tipper first, and I’m pretty damn sure they’ll get stouter drinks at some point. 

Edited July 19, 2019 by Icon901

[navybankerteacher]

16 hours ago, Icon901 said:

 

 

...

For example. I'm not sure if cruises free-pour or if they are tightly metered....I'm guessing the former. 

...

 

As a former bartender, familiar with the ways bartenders cheat their employers, why would you be “...guessing the former.”?  Of course cruises do not free pour and they do meter.

 

And yes, bartenders can still play games.  My point is simply that cruises do meter.

[Heidi13]

17 hours ago, Icon901 said:

 

As a former Bartender and likely a "younger" member here who still frequents bars and such establishments in both the US and Europe (albeit outside of the cruise world)... I wanted to chime in. 

Yes.. more often than not tipping will significantly improve the quality of your drinks. Getting you a 3...4...or 5oz pour vs a standard 1.5oz pour. For example. I'm not sure if cruises free-pour or if they are tightly metered....I'm guessing the former. 

And yes, in most places giving a nice tip up front will make you "memorable" to the server or bartender, and will more often than not result in expedient service. Again, unsure about on cruises but based on what I've read it seems to work there too.

 

Regarding the ethics behind that, If I've spent $4000 for a week long vacation, and I enjoy drinking as part of that vacation... A $20 investment to a couple key servers/bartenders up front is a trivial sum to dramatically improve my service during that week (assuming a server/bartender will be a regular for the week). Right or wrong... that's how I see it.

 

I absolutely do NOT blame folks who don't want to do it.. and IMO no staff should feel ill will toward those that don't. However, I WILL likely get my drinks first 🙂


 

Suggest that you may want to take a cruise to actually understand the operation and the differences with land based bars.

 

All cruise lines I have worked for and/or cruised with have implemented measured pours and detailed stock control for well over 20 years. The days of free pours are long since gone.

 

About the only thing your bribe will ensure is that you avoid the diluted bottles reserved for the obnoxious pax.

[navybankerteacher]

1 hour ago, Icon901 said:

Liquor inventory is a major earner for EVERY bar. In fact, probably MORESO for land based bars.. the ship has other sources of revenue. 

 

...    

 

Of course liquor inventory is a major earner for land based bars — what else do they sell.

Of course liquor inventory is a major earner for land based bars - it is pretty much all that a land based bar sells.

 

Still, on cruise ships, where fares covering accommodations, meals and virtually all entertainment have been pre-paid, liquor sales are far and away the greatest producer of   variable on board revenue and a major focus for on board controls.

 

While clever bartenders, ashore or afloat, can come up with ways to cheat their employers, controls on board ship are likely a lot tighter  - and the cost to a bartender caught cheating is far more painful  — so that $20 bribe which might work so well in your shore experience, the built-in 15 to 18% tip the shipboard bartender is guaranteed means that he is more likely to focus on volume rather than waste his time scamming.  

 

 

[CarolinaGirl2010]

I only tip extra if I want to.  Kind of depends on how well we get to know our steward and/or waiters.  

[Heidi13]

6 hours ago, Icon901 said:

Liquor inventory is a major earner for EVERY bar. In fact, probably MORESO for land based bars.. the ship has other sources of revenue. 

Considering the minimal unit cost per bottle for spirits at sea, I high doubt if many, or even any shore based bars have similar profit margins to bars at sea. Back in my days at sea we purchased 40 pounders for less than UKP 1.00. Few years ago it had increased significantly and a bottle cost the officers about $4.00 and the company even made money at that price

 

Don't know of many bars in N/America & Europe that can purchase 40 pounders for about $3.00. Wages, how many barmen ashore will work 12 hrs per day, 7 days a week for 9 months for probably < $1,000 per month. After reviewing salaries, you may wish to consider utility costs, maintenance, etc which are all applicable shoreside, but provided on a ship.

[Icon901]

15 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

Considering the minimal unit cost per bottle for spirits at sea, I high doubt if many, or even any shore based bars have similar profit margins to bars at sea. Back in my days at sea we purchased 40 pounders for less than UKP 1.00. Few years ago it had increased significantly and a bottle cost the officers about $4.00 and the company even made money at that price

 

Don't know of many bars in N/America & Europe that can purchase 40 pounders for about $3.00. Wages, how many barmen ashore will work 12 hrs per day, 7 days a week for 9 months for probably < $1,000 per month. After reviewing salaries, you may wish to consider utility costs, maintenance, etc which are all applicable shoreside, but provided on a ship.

 

I can’t help but feel like you’re proving my point on the quoted here, unless you meant to quote someone else. Good points on the tax benefits for the ship, and overhead costs for the employees!

 

I was told no way they vary pours because alcohol is a major earner. I countered that ALL bars rely on the earnings from alcohol. 

 

Your post confirms that the ships have even MORE margin to play with, and thus shoreside bars are even MORE dependent on alcohol revenues to maintain profitability. 

 

Thank you for confirmation that Cruise lines use automated/metered spouts. My theory (based on what I read here) is that showing appreciation through Added gratuities will absolutely result in faster/preferential service (which alone is worth it), and I STILL suspect it will result in my neat whiskey being an extra finger or two, meaning I don’t have to return to reorder quite as frequently. 

 

We shall see.... I’ll certainly bump this post with the results in a couple months 😉 

Edited July 19, 2019 by Icon901

[cb at sea]

If your tips are either  "prepaid" or added to your account, ,then you're done.  You've paid all who are supposed to be tipped.(Cabin attendant, waiters, ass't waiters, head waiter)  Bartenders aren't included in those tips...but every drink you purchase, whether individually or on a package, have the "tip" added to the cost.  Again...you are done...nothing extra is required.

 

Room service is not generally included, so IF you use that...have a couple bucks ready.   Off the ship, tip as you would at home...taxis, bellmen/porters, etc.

 

 

[TxCityKat]

3 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

... Wages, how many barmen ashore will work 12 hrs per day, 7 days a week for 9 months for probably < $1,000 per month. After reviewing salaries, you may wish to consider utility costs, maintenance, etc which are all applicable shoreside, but provided on a ship.

 

Here is just a portion of the Cruise Critic article titled Gratuities: What's the Point? Cruise Tipping and Salaries Dissected at https://www.cruisecritic.com/articles.cfm?ID=261 last updated June 6, 2019. Note the parts I bolded regarding base wages for customer-facing positions, total compensation for bartenders & bar wait staff, work shifts, and noteworthy benefits.

 

What are typical crew member salaries?

So, what are the cruise industry's going salaries? First, let's address the crew members that would not normally receive tips.

 

Ever wonder how much a captain makes? A cruise ship captain's salary can be six figures annually. Captains on the largest ships, responsible for 5,000 or more passengers and crew members, can have a salary in excess of $150,000, typically working two months on, two months off.

 

The hotel director on a medium-to-large ship -- the officer that oversees the majority of the crew -- will receive a salary in excess of $100,000 annually, usually working four months on, with two months off. The food and beverage manager on a similar ship can gross anywhere from $3,500 to $7,500 or more per month, depending not just on the size of the ship but on the level of cuisine being prepared.

 

An executive chef can expect to earn $4,000 to $8,000 monthly, while a chef de partie salary ranges from $1,000 to $2,500. The assistant chef or trainee cook takes home anywhere from $700 to $1,000, while kitchen cleaners come in at about $600 per month. Such entry-level positions in the kitchen offer some of the lowest wages on the ship, but also typically provide the best opportunities for advancement. Muddying the waters further: Compensation for an entry-level kitchen position may be different for someone from Indonesia versus a crew member hailing from India performing the same job.

 

"Although the monthly amounts may seem meager to people in developed countries, they are significantly higher than what those crew members would earn in their home countries," explains Katie Collins, Associate Editor with CruiseShipCareers.com, a cruise line recruiting resource. (A notable exception is Norwegian's Pride of America, a U.S.-flagged ship sailing in Hawaii, where the state and federal laws govern employment and minimum wage, and crew members must be U.S. citizens.)

 

For customer-facing positions, gratuities usually come into play. "Gratuities make up most of the compensation for crew in the housekeeping and food and beverage departments," says Collins. The base wage is usually low -- sometimes as little as $2 a day -- but income from tips can represent as much as 95 percent of the take-home total.

 

Including gratuities, total compensation for an assistant waiter position ranges anywhere from $900 to as much as $2,200 a month; experienced dining room waiters can earn upward of $3,200 a month. The assistant maitre d' can earn $4,000 or more, and is generally part of the tip pool.

 

Total compensation for bartenders can range anywhere from $1,800 to $2,500, while bar wait staff earn between $1,200 and $2,200 a month.

 

On the housekeeping side, a cabin steward salary can range between $650 and $1,150 per month, including gratuities, though on a luxury line the salary might exceed $2,000 per month once tips are factored in. A housekeeping floor supervisor is included in the tip pool on most lines, and takes home $1,300 or more. A laundry attendant is usually not compensated with gratuities and might earn as little as $700 a month.

 

To be sure, most crew positions are not glamorous, and their salaries are not high. Most crew members work 10 to 12 hours a day, and as many as seven full days a week. But cruise jobs come with several noteworthy benefits: Room and board is fully covered while sailing and, once an initial contract is completed, round trip airfare is picked up by the cruise line. This allows for crew members to build up savings, or to send funds back home while at sea. Some learn valuable skills while working at sea -- skills they can take with them to develop a business or service at home. Crew members receive medical treatment for work-related illness or injuries while aboard, and the cruise line will provide transfer to a land-based hospital or home, if necessary...

Edited July 20, 2019 by TxCityKat
typo

[Heidi13]

8 hours ago, Icon901 said:

Your post confirms that the ships have even MORE margin to play with, and thus shoreside bars are even MORE dependent on alcohol revenues to maintain profitability. 

 

Negative, ship owners do not play with their excessive margins. The mark-up in bars is not flexible, the ship manages inventory closely and everything goes toward the huge numbers these ships produce every week. While the ship has numerous revenue streams, each area reports individually, so the Bar Manager reports results each cruise and is expected to meet quotas.

 

With respect to giving bribes, the staff will be pleasant to your face, but some of the comments below decks are most entertaining. Please remember that aboard a cruise ship, you are no longer in America and many of the staff have diametrically opposed customs. 

 

Have never bribed the staff in over 40 years on cruise ships and have always received exceptional service. The crew are away from families for many months and many of them appreciate you taking an interest in them and chatting to them on a personal level, way more than giving them a bribe. Giving a bribe is easy, but getting to know them and being genuinely interested in where they are from takes a little work. What is also appreciated by many crew, especially when they have In Port Manning, is bringing local treats or supplies onboard for them.

[Heidi13]

5 hours ago, TxCityKat said:

 

Here is just a portion of the Cruise Critic article titled Gratuities: What's the Point? Cruise Tipping and Salaries Dissected at https://www.cruisecritic.com/articles.cfm?ID=261 last updated June 6, 2019. Note the parts I bolded regarding base wages for customer-facing positions, total compensation for bartenders & bar wait staff, work shifts, and noteworthy benefits.

 

What are typical crew member salaries?

So, what are the cruise industry's going salaries? First, let's address the crew members that would not normally receive tips.

 

Ever wonder how much a captain makes? A cruise ship captain's salary can be six figures annually. Captains on the largest ships, responsible for 5,000 or more passengers and crew members, can have a salary in excess of $150,000, typically working two months on, two months off.

 

The hotel director on a medium-to-large ship -- the officer that oversees the majority of the crew -- will receive a salary in excess of $100,000 annually, usually working four months on, with two months off. The food and beverage manager on a similar ship can gross anywhere from $3,500 to $7,500 or more per month, depending not just on the size of the ship but on the level of cuisine being prepared.

 

An executive chef can expect to earn $4,000 to $8,000 monthly, while a chef de partie salary ranges from $1,000 to $2,500. The assistant chef or trainee cook takes home anywhere from $700 to $1,000, while kitchen cleaners come in at about $600 per month. Such entry-level positions in the kitchen offer some of the lowest wages on the ship, but also typically provide the best opportunities for advancement. Muddying the waters further: Compensation for an entry-level kitchen position may be different for someone from Indonesia versus a crew member hailing from India performing the same job.

 

"Although the monthly amounts may seem meager to people in developed countries, they are significantly higher than what those crew members would earn in their home countries," explains Katie Collins, Associate Editor with CruiseShipCareers.com, a cruise line recruiting resource. (A notable exception is Norwegian's Pride of America, a U.S.-flagged ship sailing in Hawaii, where the state and federal laws govern employment and minimum wage, and crew members must be U.S. citizens.)

 

For customer-facing positions, gratuities usually come into play. "Gratuities make up most of the compensation for crew in the housekeeping and food and beverage departments," says Collins. The base wage is usually low -- sometimes as little as $2 a day -- but income from tips can represent as much as 95 percent of the take-home total.

 

Including gratuities, total compensation for an assistant waiter position ranges anywhere from $900 to as much as $2,200 a month; experienced dining room waiters can earn upward of $3,200 a month. The assistant maitre d' can earn $4,000 or more, and is generally part of the tip pool.

 

Total compensation for bartenders can range anywhere from $1,800 to $2,500, while bar wait staff earn between $1,200 and $2,200 a month.

 

On the housekeeping side, a cabin steward salary can range between $650 and $1,150 per month, including gratuities, though on a luxury line the salary might exceed $2,000 per month once tips are factored in. A housekeeping floor supervisor is included in the tip pool on most lines, and takes home $1,300 or more. A laundry attendant is usually not compensated with gratuities and might earn as little as $700 a month.

 

To be sure, most crew positions are not glamorous, and their salaries are not high. Most crew members work 10 to 12 hours a day, and as many as seven full days a week. But cruise jobs come with several noteworthy benefits: Room and board is fully covered while sailing and, once an initial contract is completed, round trip airfare is picked up by the cruise line. This allows for crew members to build up savings, or to send funds back home while at sea. Some learn valuable skills while working at sea -- skills they can take with them to develop a business or service at home. Crew members receive medical treatment for work-related illness or injuries while aboard, and the cruise line will provide transfer to a land-based hospital or home, if necessary...

As with most articles in the media, this one provides an overview, but has numerous errors & omissions.

 

Captains - won't discuss numbers, but many Captains are still on a 2/1 work/leave ratio. For officer positions the salaries and work/leave ratio are dependent on country of origin.

 

Hotel - while some are 2/1, many of them are 3/1 or worse, again depends on nationality and contract.

 

Room & Board is covered for most crew while signed-on articles, regardless of whether the ship is sailing or not. Some contract staff, such as Spa Staff must pay room & board for every day on board and their only income is commission & tips. Provided crew members do not break the employment contract the company is obligated to pay all costs back to home airport. However, Spa employees must complete a full 10 month contract to get airfare paid.

 

If crew require disembarkation for medical reasons, those cost are the responsibility of the P&I Club.

 

Another key consideration - the salary numbers are the sole income, as very few mariners receive the benefits afforded to many shore based staff - no vacation pay, no pension, no medical benefits on leave, etc.

 

Another key consideration, is that cruise ship staff are paid well below the norm for the marine industry. Most Captains on private yachts make considerably more than cruise ship Captains. Don't have facts for other positions, but suspect they are similar.

[clo]

On 7/19/2019 at 11:29 PM, Heidi13 said:

As with most articles in the media, this one provides an overview, but has numerous errors & omissions.

 

I'm assuming that you do or used to work in the cruise business?

[Heidi13]

1 hour ago, clo said:

I'm assuming that you do or used to work in the cruise business?

Affirmative, I was a Deck Officer (Navigator) on UK flagged cruise ships, then I worked Ro/Pax. Spent 40 years at sea, with almost 30 in command.

[clo]

3 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

Affirmative, I was a Deck Officer (Navigator) on UK flagged cruise ships, then I worked Ro/Pax. Spent 40 years at sea, with almost 30 in command.

Although it shows I joined CC some years ago I've only recently become (very,too) active.  Glad to see your background.  I'm sure you bring a lot to the site.  PS:  We love BC.

[clo]

On 7/19/2019 at 10:53 PM, Heidi13 said:

many of them appreciate you taking an interest in them and chatting to them on a personal level,

Absolutely.  My husband say that I can find out more about someone in 20 minutes than he can in 20 years.  I just love the human animal.  And people respond to that interest.  We're starting our O cruise in December in Rio.  I can already think of a local goody 🙂  Thanks for the insights.

[navybankerteacher]

On 7/19/2019 at 4:57 PM, Icon901 said:

 

...

 

Thank you for confirmation that Cruise lines use automated/metered spouts. My theory (based on what I read here) is that showing appreciation through Added gratuities will absolutely result in faster/preferential service (which alone is worth it), and I STILL suspect it will result in my neat whiskey being an extra finger or two, meaning I don’t have to return to reorder quite as frequently. 

 

...

It is obvious that you have convinced yourself that bribing bar tenders will give you more liquor for less money than simply buying the number of drinks you want. 

 

How large a bribe do you think it will take to get a bar tender to risk losing his job for giving you that “...extra finger or two.”?

 

 

[Icon901]

5 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

It is obvious that you have convinced yourself that bribing bar tenders will give you more liquor for less money than simply buying the number of drinks you want. 

 

How large a bribe do you think it will take to get a bar tender to risk losing his job for giving you that “...extra finger or two.”?

 

 

Lawd... she can’t let go. 

 

I have ordered the premium beverage package so it has nothing to do with saving money. 😂  I’ve read many instances on here of folks experiencing exactly what I am talking about, so your fascination, and subsequent reviving a closed discussion is amusing. 

 

Like I said in my closing post (which you edited out for some odd reason), I’m curious to see if it has a similar effect as most any other bar on earth. I’ll bump the post in my return. Worst case, I’ve tipped the hardworking staff on the front end instead of the back end. Either way they’ll have earned the money. 

 

Cheers 🥃 

 

[navybankerteacher]

1 hour ago, Icon901 said:

Lawd... she can’t let go. 

 

I have ordered the premium beverage package so it has nothing to do with saving money. 😂  I’ve read many instances on here of folks experiencing exactly what I am talking about, so your fascination, and subsequent reviving a closed discussion is amusing. 

 

Like I said in my closing post (which you edited out for some odd reason), I’m curious to see if it has a similar effect as most any other bar on earth. I’ll bump the post in my return. Worst case, I’ve tipped the hardworking staff on the front end instead of the back end. Either way they’ll have earned the money. 

 

Cheers 🥃 

 

Yeah, right....h

[Doug R.]

On 1/17/2018 at 1:18 PM, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

Right, because people always get a receipt when they give a bartender a buck.

 

How sad that some people mock and resent other peoples' generosity.

Those who brag about the excessive tips they toss at every waiter/steward/bartender, etc. are just trying to show us what big shots they are and deserve to be mocked. I don't resent them, I just feel sorry that they feel compelled to throw their money away and still get the same service as us peons get. I do tip extra for above and beyond service and room service. By the way I consider money given at the beginning of the cruise to be a bribe, not a tip.

[clo]

17 minutes ago, Doug R. said:

By the way I consider money given at the beginning of the cruise to be a bribe, not a tip.

Totally.  Call it whatever they want but it's a bribe.

[Heidi13]

14 hours ago, Doug R. said:

By the way I consider money given at the beginning of the cruise to be a bribe, not a tip.

So true, I consider any money provided before a service is received, if it isn't a deposit, it is a bribe. A tip/gratuity is in recognition of exemplary service received.

[Icon901]

I've noticed a phenomenon on these forums that is interesting. All forums have their own quirks, but this place has some great ones. 

Cruises offer an awesome array of options to cater to all tastes. Interior vs balcony, premium dining vs MDR, or in this case, tipping vs not tipping. With seemingly any choice there is a subset of folks on one side who get exceptionally defensive about any slight against their approach, yet those same people jump at the chance to deride those who feel differently. Just an observation that tickles me

Regarding those who feel their time is best spent mired in the semantics of what to call a gratuity paid before or after services rendered... you label things whatever floats your boat in your worldview. You're the only one who lives there, so you should mold it as you see fit. 👍

 

Like stated before, there are an infinite number of ways to enjoy your cruise experience. As long as it's not hurting anyone or stealing.... you do you 😄

Cheers!
 

Edited July 26, 2019 by Icon901