Cancelling P&O auto tips - does this hit P&O in the pocket or the staff?

[annieuk]

We were on the long 65 night cruise on Aurora from Jan-March. We were on Club Dining, table of 8 - our choice. Of the 8 on our table we were the only two who left the Auto tips on. I know the amount of tips on such a long trip is very great and maybe that is why but from the chat that went on we were definitely left with the impression that the others - all regular cruisers, all of whom had previously been on world cruises - always removed the Auto tips.

[dsrdsrdsr]

If P&O are "topping up" the wages of crew members whose customers don't tip, then that isn't an issue that anyone need argue about.

 

If P&O are withholding tips when passengers have paid them, then that is fraud and (if proved) would probably leave them liable to repay all the autotips they have collected for years back to the passengers who have paid them. That would be ruinously expensive, and that's why I would need very good evidence before I'd believe it.

[bee-ess]

If P&O are "topping up" the wages of crew members whose customers don't tip, then that isn't an issue that anyone need argue about.

 

If P&O are withholding tips when passengers have paid them, then that is fraud and (if proved) would probably leave them liable to repay all the autotips they have collected for years back to the passengers who have paid them. That would be ruinously expensive, and that's why I would need very good evidence before I'd believe it.

 

You are right , none of us have any firm evidence of what happens to the AG money, but, the seed of doubt has been planted. If you cancel the AG and pay cash tips then you know that the staff get the money. If you pay the AG you are then trusting P&O to pass it on in full, which has left many doubting the integrity of the system.

[picsa]

If you cancel the AG and pay cash tips then you know that the staff get the money.

 

Actually you don't as many companies have it in their employees conditions they have to hand in cash tips (lots of reports of restaurants in London doing this in the Evening Standard).

[bee-ess]

So what do you suggest then - don't tip at all

[happy v]

I do agree with the opinion that 'the post which can't be mentioned' was made by a disgruntled employee. This does not make it untrue, nor does it make it true. What gives it veracity is the speed it, and all posts alluding to it were removed. Although I am not a veteran of these boards I have been around long enough to have read hundreds if not thousands of tipping threads. I have never seen any being removed, unless they were offensive. So I am afraid that action alone has confirmed this for me.

[picsa]

So what do you suggest then - don't tip at all

 

I tip for good service and in those cases it is cash directly to the staff, not money into some black hole.

 

However good service is rare on P&O. Adequate yes, but good, not really.

[Selbourne]

Actually you don't as many companies have it in their employees conditions they have to hand in cash tips (lots of reports of restaurants in London doing this in the Evening Standard).

 

Not so with P&O. Staff may keep all cash tips, regardless of whether the passenger has paid the service charge or not.

[bee-ess]

Not so with P&O. Staff may keep all cash tips, regardless of whether the passenger has paid the service charge or not.

 

That is my understanding and have been told as much by a CS on my last P&O cruise. I will cancel the AG but still want to tip and will do so directly to the waiters and CS unless service is particularly bad. We do fixed dining which makes it easier to tip at the end of the cruise.

[Selbourne]

Whilst I am sick to the back teeth of these endless tipping threads - and this one has added absolutely nothing, as it is merely going around and around the same issues that are debated time and time and time again - I do find it amusing that people happily dismiss out of hand the clear statement made by P&O that the AG’s are distributed to the stated staff (primarily cabin stewards and waiters), and take the absence of anything less than a certified copy of P&O’s contract of employment as absolute confirmation that P&O is at least pulling a fast one or at worst committing fraud - yet these same people will take no end of dubious posts, or the fact that the moderators (who aren’t affiliated to P&O) are trigger happy when it comes to post deletions, as hard evidence to support their theories. Funny that.

 

For what it’s worth, I have decided to remove auto service charges and pay at least the same in cash (but probably more - as I used to do both), not because I think that the money doesn’t go to the staff (I simply cannot believe that P&O would be so stupid as to defraud their passengers via such a contentious and public method), but because I have come to the conclusion that the increases in service charges are due to the large volumes of passengers opting out. I don’t mind paying for my cruise, but not subsidising others. I am hoping that if enough people do this, P&O will be forced to increase cruise prices so that all staff are paid fairly and all passengers pay for this equally.

[Harry Peterson]

As the one who unwittingly started all this by posting what was a genuine question at the time about the impact of not paying the auto-tips, I'm amazed at the controversy - apologies!

 

The comments made have completely clarified the matter for me, though - so thanks for all the input.

 

My own position is very clear. I want to see the staff fairly paid, and I'm happy to pay for that - but I'm not at all happy about a voluntary scheme that's shrouded in mystery. Particularly when P&O have gone on record as saying that bonus payments depend not on the auto-tips but on the percentage feedback achieved by individual members of staff.

 

I think the answer to this conundrum is probably very simple:

 

1 Staff bonuses depend entirely on customer feedback, which is why the staff are always (and quite understandably) so keen to remind us of that.

 

2 Whether or not you pay the auto-tips makes no difference whatever to those bonuses.

 

3 P&O simply regard the auto-tips as additional fare income from passengers. They take it if passengers are prepared to pay it, but since it's voluntary there's nothing they can do (except perhaps leave potentially embarrassing letters pinned to people's doors if those reports are true) if people choose not to pay.

 

4 There's no real way of knowing whether these auto-tips are passed on (P&O don't mention that point anywhere) because they're just merged with the general fares income. It doesn't really matter whether they are or aren't, though, because the staff still get guaranteed bonuses based on performance whether you pay the auto-tips or not.

 

5 Logically, then, if you like the idea of a voluntary payment to P&O which has no effect whatever on staff pay, pay it. If, however, you prefer the idea of giving that money to the staff direct, do that.

 

For me, the answer's very clear indeed - I see the staff as rather more in need of the cash than Carnival shareholders, and that's precisely where voluntary payments end up ultimately.

[kruzseeka]

A very fair and clearly expressed summary imo. And I share your conclusion too.

[grapau27]

As the one who unwittingly started all this by posting what was a genuine question at the time about the impact of not paying the auto-tips, I'm amazed at the controversy - apologies!

 

The comments made have completely clarified the matter for me, though - so thanks for all the input.

 

My own position is very clear. I want to see the staff fairly paid, and I'm happy to pay for that - but I'm not at all happy about a voluntary scheme that's shrouded in mystery. Particularly when P&O have gone on record as saying that bonus payments depend not on the auto-tips but on the percentage feedback achieved by individual members of staff.

 

I think the answer to this conundrum is probably very simple:

 

1 Staff bonuses depend entirely on customer feedback, which is why the staff are always (and quite understandably) so keen to remind us of that.

 

2 Whether or not you pay the auto-tips makes no difference whatever to those bonuses.

 

3 P&O simply regard the auto-tips as additional fare income from passengers. They take it if passengers are prepared to pay it, but since it's voluntary there's nothing they can do (except perhaps leave potentially embarrassing letters pinned to people's doors if those reports are true) if people choose not to pay.

 

4 There's no real way of knowing whether these auto-tips are passed on (P&O don't mention that point anywhere) because they're just merged with the general fares income. It doesn't really matter whether they are or aren't, though, because the staff still get guaranteed bonuses based on performance whether you pay the auto-tips or not.

 

5 Logically, then, if you like the idea of a voluntary payment to P&O which has no effect whatever on staff pay, pay it. If, however, you prefer the idea of giving that money to the staff direct, do that.

 

For me, the answer's very clear indeed - I see the staff as rather more in need of the cash than Carnival shareholders, and that's precisely where voluntary payments end up ultimately.

You make very valid points.

[jeanlyon]

Exactly.

[bee-ess]

As the one who unwittingly started all this by posting what was a genuine question at the time about the impact of not paying the auto-tips, I'm amazed at the controversy - apologies!

 

The comments made have completely clarified the matter for me, though - so thanks for all the input.

 

My own position is very clear. I want to see the staff fairly paid, and I'm happy to pay for that - but I'm not at all happy about a voluntary scheme that's shrouded in mystery. Particularly when P&O have gone on record as saying that bonus payments depend not on the auto-tips but on the percentage feedback achieved by individual members of staff.

 

I think the answer to this conundrum is probably very simple:

 

1 Staff bonuses depend entirely on customer feedback, which is why the staff are always (and quite understandably) so keen to remind us of that.

 

2 Whether or not you pay the auto-tips makes no difference whatever to those bonuses.

 

3 P&O simply regard the auto-tips as additional fare income from passengers. They take it if passengers are prepared to pay it, but since it's voluntary there's nothing they can do (except perhaps leave potentially embarrassing letters pinned to people's doors if those reports are true) if people choose not to pay.

 

4 There's no real way of knowing whether these auto-tips are passed on (P&O don't mention that point anywhere) because they're just merged with the general fares income. It doesn't really matter whether they are or aren't, though, because the staff still get guaranteed bonuses based on performance whether you pay the auto-tips or not.

 

5 Logically, then, if you like the idea of a voluntary payment to P&O which has no effect whatever on staff pay, pay it. If, however, you prefer the idea of giving that money to the staff direct, do that.

 

For me, the answer's very clear indeed - I see the staff as rather more in need of the cash than Carnival shareholders, and that's precisely where voluntary payments end up ultimately.

 

Well written, exactly as I see it. Agree 100%

[majortom10]

Whilst I am sick to the back teeth of these endless tipping threads - and this one has added absolutely nothing, as it is merely going around and around the same issues that are debated time and time and time again - I do find it amusing that people happily dismiss out of hand the clear statement made by P&O that the AG’s are distributed to the stated staff (primarily cabin stewards and waiters), and take the absence of anything less than a certified copy of P&O’s contract of employment as absolute confirmation that P&O is at least pulling a fast one or at worst committing fraud - yet these same people will take no end of dubious posts, or the fact that the moderators (who aren’t affiliated to P&O) are trigger happy when it comes to post deletions, as hard evidence to support their theories. Funny that.

 

For what it’s worth, I have decided to remove auto service charges and pay at least the same in cash (but probably more - as I used to do both), not because I think that the money doesn’t go to the staff (I simply cannot believe that P&O would be so stupid as to defraud their passengers via such a contentious and public method), but because I have come to the conclusion that the increases in service charges are due to the large volumes of passengers opting out. I don’t mind paying for my cruise, but not subsidising others. I am hoping that if enough people do this, P&O will be forced to increase cruise prices so that all staff are paid fairly and all passengers pay for this equally.

 

P&O have not helped with the differing views given on their own Facebook page by themselves and differing views in e-mails to customers. To give food for thought to your comment highlighted above P&O admitted on their own Facebook page that they had increased their Service Reward Scheme to £7pppd to bring them in line with most other American cruise lines and not because many are cancelling them.

[daiB]

As the one who unwittingly started all this by posting what was a genuine question at the time about the impact of not paying the auto-tips, I'm amazed at the controversy - apologies!

 

 

 

The comments made have completely clarified the matter for me, though - so thanks for all the input.

 

 

 

My own position is very clear. I want to see the staff fairly paid, and I'm happy to pay for that - but I'm not at all happy about a voluntary scheme that's shrouded in mystery. Particularly when P&O have gone on record as saying that bonus payments depend not on the auto-tips but on the percentage feedback achieved by individual members of staff.

 

 

 

I think the answer to this conundrum is probably very simple:

 

 

 

1 Staff bonuses depend entirely on customer feedback, which is why the staff are always (and quite understandably) so keen to remind us of that.

 

 

 

2 Whether or not you pay the auto-tips makes no difference whatever to those bonuses.

 

 

 

3 P&O simply regard the auto-tips as additional fare income from passengers. They take it if passengers are prepared to pay it, but since it's voluntary there's nothing they can do (except perhaps leave potentially embarrassing letters pinned to people's doors if those reports are true) if people choose not to pay.

 

 

 

4 There's no real way of knowing whether these auto-tips are passed on (P&O don't mention that point anywhere) because they're just merged with the general fares income. It doesn't really matter whether they are or aren't, though, because the staff still get guaranteed bonuses based on performance whether you pay the auto-tips or not.

 

 

 

5 Logically, then, if you like the idea of a voluntary payment to P&O which has no effect whatever on staff pay, pay it. If, however, you prefer the idea of giving that money to the staff direct, do that.

 

 

 

For me, the answer's very clear indeed - I see the staff as rather more in need of the cash than Carnival shareholders, and that's precisely where voluntary payments end up ultimately.

 

 

 

Most of this is conjecture and some plainly wrong. You have no evidence at all of your statements.

 

No one yet has come up with the solution to the problem I have posted about a number of times. What about the staff on Freedom Dining. How do they get their tips. An interesting point is of course they do not receive a grade from cruisers as the cabin staff do. Those on freedom dining do not grade each waiting team on there service each night. They give a mark covering the whole cruise so every member of the wait staff must get the same % of the overall pot.

 

Do people who remove tips pay each night a small tip? Of course not so by removing auto tips while on freedom dining you are depriving the staff of a tip.

 

 

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[daiB]

Whilst I am sick to the back teeth of these endless tipping threads - and this one has added absolutely nothing, as it is merely going around and around the same issues that are debated time and time and time again - I do find it amusing that people happily dismiss out of hand the clear statement made by P&O that the AG’s are distributed to the stated staff (primarily cabin stewards and waiters), and take the absence of anything less than a certified copy of P&O’s contract of employment as absolute confirmation that P&O is at least pulling a fast one or at worst committing fraud - yet these same people will take no end of dubious posts, or the fact that the moderators (who aren’t affiliated to P&O) are trigger happy when it comes to post deletions, as hard evidence to support their theories. Funny that.

 

For what it’s worth, I have decided to remove auto service charges and pay at least the same in cash (but probably more - as I used to do both), not because I think that the money doesn’t go to the staff (I simply cannot believe that P&O would be so stupid as to defraud their passengers via such a contentious and public method), but because I have come to the conclusion that the increases in service charges are due to the large volumes of passengers opting out. I don’t mind paying for my cruise, but not subsidising others. I am hoping that if enough people do this, P&O will be forced to increase cruise prices so that all staff are paid fairly and all passengers pay for this equally.

 

 

 

Selbourne I do so agree with your first paragraph. It is my reading of the situation completely.

 

However have reservations about the second because of the situation with freedom dining. If you are on club and withdraw from the auto scheme then fine you can tip the wait staff as you see fit. That does not work with freedom dining. And as I have said on another reply the share a waiter on freedom receives cannot be determined by what people put on their questionnaire as they do not have the same staff every night. So by logic they must all receive an equal share.

 

 

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[bee-ess]

I'm out folks, off on a cruise tomorrow (on Celebrity though)

 

I can't imagine this thread will have changed much when I get back

[joro44]

As I posted some year or more ago the current system springs from an unofficial, berth side meeting in San Francisco, of a large group of waiting staff from the Arcadia during their afternoon free-time.

The main issue was the tipping practice for those in the newly introduced Freedom Dining concept. Regular cruisers will recall that at that time, small wooden collection boxes were placed at the entrances to the Buffet facility to 'tip' staff operating there, but no system existed for those servicing the Freedom facility. These staff members were thus at a financial disadvantage both to their fellows in Buffet and even more so to those in Club Dining, as those 'guests' in Freedom had no regular waiters to whom to give tips and so it was easy for some 'guests' not tip. An unintended outcome of introducing Freedom Dining?

The solution adopted by PO was to introduce AG. A proportion of the monies so collected by PO was to be used to provide an increase in the basic rates of pay of both waiting and cabin staff, the remainder being given to individuals on the basis of their performance as recorded by 'guests' questionnaires' responses. I do not know the percentage split between basic rate and performance reward.

However, on our recent cruises (some three a year) I have got the impression that there is a growing number opting out of AG. What proportion are skinflints or cash payers is difficult to judge. But the more there are of both, the higher the rate of AG will become, no doubt resulting in more opting out of AG and so on.

ROLL ON INCLUSIVE AG IN THE CRUISE FARE.

 

50 cruises 17 ships 3 liners 145 ports

[Wave666]

I thought that the waitstaff rotated dining venues throughout the cruise season,that way they all equally serve in club and freedom.

[grapau27]

Selbourne I do so agree with your first paragraph. It is my reading of the situation completely.

 

However have reservations about the second because of the situation with freedom dining. If you are on club and withdraw from the auto scheme then fine you can tip the wait staff as you see fit. That does not work with freedom dining. And as I have said on another reply the share a waiter on freedom receives cannot be determined by what people put on their questionnaire as they do not have the same staff every night. So by logic they must all receive an equal share.

 

 

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We use Freedom dining and for that reason only would never stop our AG.

[daiB]

I thought that the waitstaff rotated dining venues throughout the cruise season,that way they all equally serve in club and freedom.

 

 

 

They do a far as I know but that still puts them in freedom dining for between 50% and 66% of their contract depending on the ship.

 

 

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[Selbourne]

As the one who unwittingly started all this by posting what was a genuine question at the time about the impact of not paying the auto-tips, I'm amazed at the controversy - apologies!

 

The comments made have completely clarified the matter for me, though - so thanks for all the input.

 

My own position is very clear. I want to see the staff fairly paid, and I'm happy to pay for that - but I'm not at all happy about a voluntary scheme that's shrouded in mystery. Particularly when P&O have gone on record as saying that bonus payments depend not on the auto-tips but on the percentage feedback achieved by individual members of staff.

 

I think the answer to this conundrum is probably very simple:

 

1 Staff bonuses depend entirely on customer feedback, which is why the staff are always (and quite understandably) so keen to remind us of that.

 

2 Whether or not you pay the auto-tips makes no difference whatever to those bonuses.

 

3 P&O simply regard the auto-tips as additional fare income from passengers. They take it if passengers are prepared to pay it, but since it's voluntary there's nothing they can do (except perhaps leave potentially embarrassing letters pinned to people's doors if those reports are true) if people choose not to pay.

 

4 There's no real way of knowing whether these auto-tips are passed on (P&O don't mention that point anywhere) because they're just merged with the general fares income. It doesn't really matter whether they are or aren't, though, because the staff still get guaranteed bonuses based on performance whether you pay the auto-tips or not.

 

5 Logically, then, if you like the idea of a voluntary payment to P&O which has no effect whatever on staff pay, pay it. If, however, you prefer the idea of giving that money to the staff direct, do that.

 

For me, the answer's very clear indeed - I see the staff as rather more in need of the cash than Carnival shareholders, and that's precisely where voluntary payments end up ultimately.

 

You might be pleased that you feel that you are now clear and several others have taken your post as a good summary. Sadly, your summary is incorrect as you are confusing the bonus scheme with the auto service charge. The two are separate.

 

I did manage to read the controversial post by the supposed P&O employee - several times. I think it possibly was an employee (or ex employee) but certainly one with an axe to grind, so it may be a bit distorted. However, if we assume it to be mostly true, the poster did raise some concerns about the service charge distribution and who may receive it. They provided zero evidence to support their claim. It was just heresay but is being taken by most on here as fact. However, they didn’t suggest that it didn’t exist or that those supposed to get it, as stated by P&O, didn’t receive it.

 

What they did clearly articulate was the separate bonus scheme, which is based upon such things as attendance, timekeeping and behavioural aspects. Nothing to do with the service charge as it is in addition to it.

 

The truth is that none of us know every aspect of the entire P&O remuneration structure (we never will, it is naive to think we will) and it is dangerous to present heresay as fact and then all decide that we know every detail. We don’t.

[Selbourne]

P&O have not helped with the differing views given on their own Facebook page by themselves and differing views in e-mails to customers. To give food for thought to your comment highlighted above P&O admitted on their own Facebook page that they had increased their Service Reward Scheme to £7pppd to bring them in line with most other American cruise lines and not because many are cancelling them.

 

It gives me no food for thought at all. There is no way on earth that they would own up to the fact that they are increasing the service charge due to opt outs. It would be naive to think so. They aren’t daft. The reason they have given is safer ground as it is less emotive. It’s the same as when they introduce other things that are deeply unpopular with customers and state that the reason is ‘in response to customer feedback’. I don’t fall for that one either!