Muster Stations outside

[SRF]

14 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

While this is quite true of the Navy, as a merchant mariner Chief Engineer, I am an officer.  However, given the smaller crews of merchant ships, the officers do much of the work, along with the crew.  This was always a problem for me during my naval reserve time, as I could not sit back and just watch, as the senior officers wanted me to.

 

Although, as you know from your reserve time, the Chief Engineer on most USN ships is also an officer.

 

People without your background may not understand the difference in the use of Chief as a title (Chief Engineer) versus as a rank (Chief Petty Officer).  For those who do not know Navy ranks, a Chief Petty Officer (Chief Petty Officer, Senior Chief Petty Officer, Master Chief Petty Officer: E-7 to E-9) in the Navy is equivalent to a  Sargent First Class (E-7) or Master Sargent (E-8) or Sargent Major (E-9) in the Army.  For Marines it is equivalent to Gunnery SGT, Master SGT, or Master Gunnery SGT.  Equivalent in the Air Force is Master Sargent, Senior Master Sargent, or Chief Master Sargent

[TheOldBear]

15 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

The example you cite of a ship damaged by mine, that would be the USS Roberts, which suffered a shattered keel, and the ship split so badly that the crew tightened wire cables around the superstructure to keep her together, yet she did not roll over or sink.  She was towed to Bahrain, where they made temporary repairs enough to get her onto a heavy lift ship and she was transported here to Portland, Maine, where they cut the entire engine room out and replaced it as a single module.  Her repair took 13 months and $89 million.  The problems the British faced were caused mostly by their use of aluminum as a superstructure material, which in some cases literally vaporized in the heat of the explosion.  Most countries have gone away from this practice after the Falklands war.  There was little difference between ships of WWI era and WWII era in terms of strength of materials, and naval design.  They just basically got bigger.

 

The losses of ships in WWII is actually the worst ecological disaster to strike the world's oceans.  Nearly all ships went down with oil in their bunker tanks, and many, like the USS Arizona, still have oil in those tanks, and like the Arizona are slowly leaking it into the sea.

While this is quite true of the Navy, as a merchant mariner Chief Engineer, I am an officer.  However, given the smaller crews of merchant ships, the officers do much of the work, along with the crew.  This was always a problem for me during my naval reserve time, as I could not sit back and just watch, as the senior officers wanted me to.

 

Hate to interrupt - but the Type 41 DDG's [Sheffield & Coventry] lost during the Falklands Islands war were all steel designs - no aluminum superstructure [unlike the USN DD-963 and derivative DDG and CG classes]

The Samual B Roberts, a much smaller Perry class FFG, did survive multiple Exocet missile strikes - and the Perry class had an aluminum superstructure.  

Former DCA - USS McInerney [FFG-8]

[chengkp75]

I believe you are referring to the USS Stark as the Perry class frigate that was struck by two Exocet missiles.  And you are correct about the UK ships in the Falklands, but there were fires previously on US and UK ships with aluminum superstructures.

[navybankerteacher]

4 hours ago, SRF said:

 

Part of the issue with the fires was, someone had the bright idea of using a lot of aluminum for the superstructure to reduce weight up high.

 

Unfortunately, aluminum can catch fire and burn.

 

 

An aluminum superstructure on a steel hull provide the essentials for a potential thermite reaction - in which an incoming Exocet serves as the ideal igniter.

[TheOldBear]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

I believe you are referring to the USS Stark as the Perry class frigate that was struck by two Exocet missiles.  And you are correct about the UK ships in the Falklands, but there were fires previously on US and UK ships with aluminum superstructures.

 

Right about the Stark.

I was glad not to experience that is person - bu I could have. For some reason the US State department wanted a Naval 'presence' mission at the time of the Falklands war - only one ship would have been available, and we were just completing 'refresher training' in Gitmo 

 

Apparently the Navy brass told State 'not only no, but <expletive> no', so we didn't need to practice Exocet catching ourselves.

[Heidi13]

On 12/13/2018 at 4:39 PM, cruising cockroach said:

Thanks for the naval architecture lesson.   There were also WW-II naval losses (or lots, some of which involved capsizes and some of the losses were ships or WW-I design). I think since WW-II, only one ship (a WW-II veteran at that) has been torpedoed other than for target practice.  As for more-modern warships, the British lost a few warships via missiles (these cause uncontrollable fires more than anything else, unlike older weaponry) and some others by good ol' iron bombs.  I think one U.S. ship was heavily destroyed by a mine.  Not too many losses of "large" military ships through hostile fire in the past ~65 years?

The Cruiser was the General Delgrado, which was sunk by the British submarine HMS Conqueror.

 

UK lost two ships to Excocets - HMS Sheffield (destroyer) & MV Atlantic Conveyor (Ro/Ro). The Sheffield was lost due to the Aluminium superstructure burning in the fire started at missile impact. The others were all lost as a result of dumb bombs.

 

Many other ships were also hit by bombs, which failed to explode. This group included SS Canberra, which was in San Carlos Bay off-loading troops. Canberra took a bomb down the funnel, which failed to explode.

[Sue Do-Over]

I would like to GATHER at an indoor location with a video screen.  After the live demonstration of putting on a life-vest, show a video of passengers boarding a lifeboat calmly, and filling all the seats.

Many people will be stunned at how little space there is for extras like purses or backpacks.  That could be important in a real emergency.

 

At the end of the presentation, have the guides walk the guests in groups or a long line out of the theater/dining room by the route they would really take, and to where they would board the lifeboat in the case of a real emergency.  (Like the galley tour after the cooking demo... just walk through).

 

Show the video on the stateroom TVs in between all the other safety, debarkation and other videos.

 

I liked the Carnival on-deck muster specifically because I knew where 'my' boat was and how we'd have to climb into it.  On one cruise, they unbuttoned the cover and let us peek in.

 

In an emergency, a little muscle-memory can help people stay calm and follow familiar directions.

[chengkp75]

4 hours ago, Sue Do-Over said:

I would like to GATHER at an indoor location with a video screen.  After the live demonstration of putting on a life-vest, show a video of passengers boarding a lifeboat calmly, and filling all the seats.

Many people will be stunned at how little space there is for extras like purses or backpacks.  That could be important in a real emergency.

 

At the end of the presentation, have the guides walk the guests in groups or a long line out of the theater/dining room by the route they would really take, and to where they would board the lifeboat in the case of a real emergency.  (Like the galley tour after the cooking demo... just walk through).

 

Show the video on the stateroom TVs in between all the other safety, debarkation and other videos.

 

I liked the Carnival on-deck muster specifically because I knew where 'my' boat was and how we'd have to climb into it.  On one cruise, they unbuttoned the cover and let us peek in.

 

In an emergency, a little muscle-memory can help people stay calm and follow familiar directions.

Just so you know, there is no space for purses and backpacks, just like airlines where you are told not to take personal belongings with you when evacuating.

[FlyerTalker]

FWIW, Crystal musters at the lifeboats on the Promenade deck.  Seabourn, Silversea and Regent muster indoors in theaters, restaurants and lounges.  I've been on Regent and Silversea drills where they take the guests from the muster area, through the designated route, and out to the boats.  And Regent and Silversea where we stayed at the station.

 

YMMV it seems.

[Heidi13]

9 hours ago, Sue Do-Over said:

I would like to GATHER at an indoor location with a video screen.  After the live demonstration of putting on a life-vest, show a video of passengers boarding a lifeboat calmly, and filling all the seats.

Many people will be stunned at how little space there is for extras like purses or backpacks.  That could be important in a real emergency.

 

At the end of the presentation, have the guides walk the guests in groups or a long line out of the theater/dining room by the route they would really take, and to where they would board the lifeboat in the case of a real emergency.  (Like the galley tour after the cooking demo... just walk through).

 

Show the video on the stateroom TVs in between all the other safety, debarkation and other videos.

 

I liked the Carnival on-deck muster specifically because I knew where 'my' boat was and how we'd have to climb into it.  On one cruise, they unbuttoned the cover and let us peek in.

 

In an emergency, a little muscle-memory can help people stay calm and follow familiar directions.

To expand Cheng's response. The tenders used at anchor may carry 80 to 90, but if required as a lifeboat the capacity will be closer to 150. I recall many years ago, Transport Canada had a cruise ship in Vancouver prove they could put 150 people in a lifeboat. Believe it took multiple attempts, over many hours and they were using crew, who in many cases take up less space than passengers.

 

There is Zero room for any backpacks, pursers, etc. in a lifeboat and not even open for discussion in a liferaft.

 

As a Captain, personally I am not in favour of assigning passengers to specific lifeboats, as emergencies are highly dynamic and from experience, not all lifeboats may be available. Having passengers muster in an Assembly Station rather than an evacuation Station has so many benefits, for passenger comfort and flexibility, in the unlikely event an evacuation is required.

 

The ship is the best lifeboat, so why have passengers queue at an Evacuation Station, possibly for many hours. Based on the dynamic situation causing the emergency, the route planned from an Assembly Station to an Evacuation Station may not be the actual route taken. Therefore, taking pax on the planned route during the muster drill could be counter productive. 

[chengkp75]

Yeah, back in the oilfield, we did an experiment to see if 64 normal sized oil field workers could fit into the 64 man enclosed lifeboat, with survival suits on.  We were lucky to get 56 stacked in like a clown car.  Lifeboat seating is based on a 87kg (191lb) person, so as Capt. Heidi says, small crew fit better than average US passengers.

[FlyerTalker]

Any time you are in a tender, look for the "seating chart" for its use as a lifeboat.  Then, take that image and transfer it to the seats and people around you.

 

That cramped middle coach seat on your flight to the cruise will seem like the wide open spaces.

[Sue Do-Over]

22 hours ago, Sue Do-Over said:

Many people will be stunned at how little space there is for extras like purses or backpacks.

"NO" room for extras, is exactly my point.  My husband and I laugh that I'd be wrestling luggage from the hands of other passengers (after telling them to pull ID and meds), while he helped the mobility-challenged into the lifeboat.

 

We'd expect the same people who lug giant shopping bags aboard airplanes to arrive at the muster station with their fancy cameras, CPAP machines, etc.

[cruising cockroach]

On 12/14/2018 at 8:45 PM, Heidi13 said:

The Cruiser was the General Delgrado, which was sunk by the British submarine HMS Conqueror.

 

UK lost two ships to Excocets - HMS Sheffield (destroyer) & MV Atlantic Conveyor (Ro/Ro). The Sheffield was lost due to the Aluminium superstructure burning in the fire started at missile impact. The others were all lost as a result of dumb bombs.

 

Many other ships were also hit by bombs, which failed to explode. This group included SS Canberra, which was in San Carlos Bay off-loading troops. Canberra took a bomb down the funnel, which failed to explode.

 

General Belgrano which was originally a U.S. navy (heavy?) cruiser.

 

I reread the circumstances of British ship losses and the campaign may well have taken a different turn if the Argentinean aircraft has better or at least more reliable iron bombs.  Some say (or said at the time) that the thin skin of modern warships let bombs fall through while armoured ships would have detonated the bombs.

[cruising cockroach]

13 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

To expand Cheng's response. The tenders used at anchor may carry 80 to 90, but if required as a lifeboat the capacity will be closer to 150. I recall many years ago, Transport Canada had a cruise ship in Vancouver prove they could put 150 people in a lifeboat. Believe it took multiple attempts, over many hours and they were using crew, who in many cases take up less space than passengers.

 

I've noticed the tender vs lifeboat capacities, done a quick count and figured that the number of lifeboats seems to be barely adequate just for the nominal maximum passenger complement (unless the non-tender lifeboats can hold more) and the overflow would have to go to the rafts.  That's assuming they work.  Was told by some retired Canadian Forces members (one used to write safety manuals for the navy) that they were on a Holland America cruise once where there was a drill where the practice raft was thrown into the pool for a practice inflation and righting (assuming it inflated upside down).  The raft container just sank to the bottom of the pool. One of these people said she was stangng next to the captain and commented, "that didn't go very well, did it, chief?"

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, cruising cockroach said:

 

I've noticed the tender vs lifeboat capacities, done a quick count and figured that the number of lifeboats seems to be barely adequate just for the nominal maximum passenger complement (unless the non-tender lifeboats can hold more) and the overflow would have to go to the rafts.  That's assuming they work.  Was told by some retired Canadian Forces members (one used to write safety manuals for the navy) that they were on a Holland America cruise once where there was a drill where the practice raft was thrown into the pool for a practice inflation and righting (assuming it inflated upside down).  The raft container just sank to the bottom of the pool. One of these people said she was stangng next to the captain and commented, "that didn't go very well, did it, chief?"

Passengers are only assigned to boats or, for those ships that have them, the MES (Marine Evacuation System) raft/chute system.  These systems can get the assigned people loaded and launched in the allotted time.  So, there will be enough space in boats and MES for maximum passenger capacity, and the assigned crew (2-3 per boat/raft).  Crew rafts, generally davit launched, but some are raft/chute, different than the MES system, are not required to be able to load/launch people as quickly.

 

A practice raft is just that, it is a raft that is never in "service" it is merely used for practice, and in many cases it is serviced and repacked after training onboard the ship, so it is not uncommon for a training raft to fail.  Also, the more times the raft is exposed to the rapid inflation it experiences using the CO2 inflation cartridge, the faster the rubber in the raft perishes, another reason that training rafts are never used in real service.  Interestingly, SOLAS only requires that during the annual servicing of the raft, by a licensed service provider, be inflated, by any means, which typically means using an air compressor.  The USCG requires, for US flag vessels, that the raft be inflated using the CO2 every time, to truly test the condition of the raft.  

[gooch47]

9 hours ago, FlyerTalker said:

Any time you are in a tender, look for the "seating chart" for its use as a lifeboat.  Then, take that image and transfer it to the seats and people around you.

 

That cramped middle coach seat on your flight to the cruise will seem like the wide open spaces.

Similar to our experience on a tour bus in Japan.  The double seats intended for two were intended for two Asian people, almost always much smaller than us obese Americans.  There was no way that bus would hold the number it was supposed to.

[jagsfan]

On 12/13/2018 at 12:52 PM, chengkp75 said:

You're welcome, but I'm not a Captain.  Cheng is an acronym for Chief Engineer.

So my father was Ernest Falck. Would he have been Chengef?

[chengkp75]

4 hours ago, jagsfan said:

So my father was Ernest Falck. Would he have been Chengef?

No, KP is the nickname of my alma mater, Kings Point, or the US Merchant Marine Academy.  The Fifth Federal Academy, and the only one allowed to fly a "Battle Standard" to commemorate the undergraduates who have lost their lives in war, including 142 in WWII.

Edited December 22, 2018 by chengkp75

[jagsfan]

My mother’s 20 year old favorite brother’s name is there. Ludwig Franz Dirks, Third Assistant Engineer, drowned when his lifeboat capsized. The Walter Q Gresham was torpedoed by a Uboat on 18 March 1943. It was her maiden voyage and she was carrying supplies to the allies. 

My father had encouraged him to go to sea. He himself was on a cable repair ship. 

 Also, two of my schoolmates graduated from Kings Point. They’re 82 now, David Timm and Tracy Danese. 

Now when I see your name, I’ll think of Kings Point!

[jagsfan]

7 hours ago, jagsfan said:

 

 

[Heidi13]

On 12/20/2018 at 12:05 PM, cruising cockroach said:

 

I've noticed the tender vs lifeboat capacities, done a quick count and figured that the number of lifeboats seems to be barely adequate just for the nominal maximum passenger complement (unless the non-tender lifeboats can hold more) and the overflow would have to go to the rafts.  That's assuming they work.  Was told by some retired Canadian Forces members (one used to write safety manuals for the navy) that they were on a Holland America cruise once where there was a drill where the practice raft was thrown into the pool for a practice inflation and righting (assuming it inflated upside down).  The raft container just sank to the bottom of the pool. One of these people said she was stangng next to the captain and commented, "that didn't go very well, did it, chief?"

Cruise ships on International Voyages are only required to have at least 75% capacity in Class A lifeboats. While it is unlikely passengers would use rafts, personally I would prefer using a raft - more spacious. Down side is the movement.

 

Having participated in way too many liferaft drills, both on the ships and in swimming pools. I can assure you having the raft canister sink, with the raft inside is highly unusual.

 

Small Liferafts - these are usually 25 - 50 person rafts that are either thrown over, or davit launched. The 2 fibreglass shells are lightly glued and then secured with a number of bands - for our ships we used 5 or 6. These bands are not shipping bands and have a "Do Not Cut" symbol. When thrown over, some of the bands break on impact, but in most cases we find at least one or two remain intact. I only recall 1 deployment where all bands broke, but the raft still remained afloat.

 

Before throwing a raft overboard, the crew must ensure the "Painter Line" is secured to the ship. This line has a pin attached to each of the gas (CO2 & Nitrogen) bottles. When the painter is pulled, it triggers the inflation, so even if the raft sinks, it will return to the surface. When stowed in racks aboard ships, the raft securing lines have a hydrostatic release, which cuts the securing lines, permitting the rafts to float free, if the ship sinks. The rafts will inflate and the painter will part at the weak link, permitting the rafts to return to the surface.

 

All liferafts must be capable of being turned upside down, or be reversible. Most small raft manufacturers provide a strap across the bottom of the raft. Crew are all trained in this procedure - stand on the bottles, which are attached to the bottom of the raft and pull on the strap, leaning back. The raft turns over, landing on top of you.

 

A few years ago, Transport Canada made us prove this with our 50 person canopied raft. I booked the pool out at UBC and brought a raft and a few crew. Each of them performed the manouuvre, while I recorded it on video. It is a fairly easy process. In strong winds and a good seaway, it would be more challenging.

 

Marine Evacuation Systems - Have used systems from RFD, DBC, Viking & Liferaft Systems Australia. Transport Canada required we deploy a system every year, on each vessel. I attended each deployment until retirement. These are generally larger rafts 100 to 150 person. These rafts are generally reversible, so they are useable, regardless of the way they inflate. They have the same painters, hydrostatic releases and weak links, as the smaller rafts.

 

Some of these systems are deployed as an entire unit with slide and rafts, while others have additional rafts in canisters. Most deployments take place without a hitch, but some minor problems do occur. However, I have only witnessed 1 where flares caught on fire, where a system could not be used.

 

Any time we introduced a new product, TC required we scheduled a timed deployment, where our crew had to deploy the system and prove they could evacuate the number of people and get them 100 yds from the ship in 30 mins or less.

 

I have also been required to prove that we could launch a davit launched raft, while at sea. I took my ship out in 30 kt winds, launched a 25 person raft and loaded it with water. We had to lower it to the water and then tow it in a seaway.