Ship Horn Signals

[MicCanberra]

Did they not make it?

[SRF]

No, they made it, but there were some people holding their breath on the bridge.  You don't stop a carrier quickly.

 

Even the old Essex class. 

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, MicCanberra said:

Did they not make it?

 

1 hour ago, SRF said:

No, they made it, but there were some people holding their breath on the bridge.  You don't stop a carrier quickly.

 

Even the old Essex class. 

One piece of information on the "pilot card" which is given to every pilot when they come on the ship, and is part of the Master/Pilot briefing, is the "blind spot" or how many degrees each side of straight ahead, and how far out from the bow you can't see from the bridge.  In many cases, this can be the better part of a mile (for container ships with large stacks of boxes on deck, or a carrier with the large, wide, high flight deck and the offset and midships position of the "island").  The deck officers always hold their breath when a recreational boat or local fishing boat disappears in the blind spot, and don't let it out until the boat appears on the other side.

 

In restricted waterways, like when you have a pilot onboard for entering/leaving port, the ship will station a lookout on the bow to minimize the blind spot, but in open waters, there generally isn't one up there.

[Capt_BJ]

While "you can't fix stupid" is a good concept

 

the RULES do not include a get out of jail card for "might makes right" or "bigger wins"

 

I can relate a case where I was in a narrow channel and a crew shell (rowers) drifted directly into my path, going the same direction but directly in front of me ......

 

stupid?  IMO YES

 

but what did the rules say ..... hmm I'll make that a quiz question for you (as I did nightly in my night orders)

 

hint ... start with 9b

[MicCanberra]

Perhaps someone should have got them to fill out a ID ten T form.

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, Capt_BJ said:

While "you can't fix stupid" is a good concept

 

the RULES do not include a get out of jail card for "might makes right" or "bigger wins"

 

I can relate a case where I was in a narrow channel and a crew shell (rowers) drifted directly into my path, going the same direction but directly in front of me ......

 

stupid?  IMO YES

 

but what did the rules say ..... hmm I'll make that a quiz question for you (as I did nightly in my night orders)

 

hint ... start with 9b

And again, quite well aware of the "rules", and as Capt Heidi13 says, there are the rules and there is the real world application of those rules.  No one ever said there was a "get out of jail" card, or "rule of gross tons" (though its joked about), but there is the reality that there is little a fully laden tanker can do to avoid a smaller, more agile boat that consciously places itself into an unsafe situation.  Yes, if a ship hits a small boat, there is no automatic dismissal of responsibility for the ship, even if it is shown that the boat was negligent.  And when a boat enters the ship's blind spot, putting the helm over or stopping the engine will not affect the outcome much if at all.  There are the Rules of the Road, and then there are the Laws of Physics.

[MicCanberra]

Road rules are fine and have their place, but if the ship is on the road, then the captain would be in big trouble

[Capt_BJ]

like so many

 

you did not apply the rule I mentioned

 

which provides an answer (if the parties know and apply the rules)

 

many merchant sailors simply apply "I'm bigger" as the rule of law ..... or "I'll not change course cuz that costs money and I'm rated on fuel costs"

 

I always stressed this to my CG deck officers ..... the merchie or cruise ship WILL NOT TURN cuz it costs $$

 

I 'respected' this as a truth but wonder how many incidents were caused by it . . . 

 

MY JOB was to intercept, examine and evaluate ..... different from get from A to B at least cost .....

 

btw .. real world application is how the COURTS interpret the rules .... a big difference from what many believe the rules say.  Back in the 80's Seaman's Church had a very good 40 hour course on the rules.  20 hours was how to pass the USCG test (known to be loaded with trick questions ... in that they were VERY PARTICULAR in wording as in LONG vs PROLONGED) and 20 hours on how the courts had interpreted the rules in real life ..... one of the most useful courses I ever took . . . 

Edited January 18, 2019 by Capt_BJ

[GeeDunk]

2 hours ago, SRF said:

No, they made it, but there were some people holding their breath on the bridge.  You don't stop a carrier quickly.

 

Even the old Essex class. 

Served on an Essex Class Carrier..

 

Was on the Sea and Anchor detail, in Sky One, Main Battle Gun Director, above the Bridge.

 

We would give range and bearing when pulling in to a Port.

 

Too many times a small craft would play "chicken" with us.

 

Can not fix stupid.

[MicCanberra]

Personally, I think you can fix stupid but the answer is not legal.

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, Capt_BJ said:

like so many

 

you did not apply the rule I mentioned

 

which provides an answer (if the parties know and apply the rules)

 

many merchant sailors simply apply "I'm bigger" as the rule of law ..... or "I'll not change course cuz that costs money and I'm rated on fuel costs"

 

I always stressed this to my CG deck officers ..... the merchie or cruise ship WILL NOT TURN cuz it costs $$

 

I 'respected' this as a truth but wonder how many incidents were caused by it . . . 

 

MY JOB was to intercept, examine and evaluate ..... different from get from A to B at least cost .....

 

btw .. real world application is how the COURTS interpret the rules .... a big difference from what many believe the rules say.  Back in the 80's Seaman's Church had a very good 40 hour course on the rules.  20 hours was how to pass the USCG test (known to be loaded with trick questions ... in that they were VERY PARTICULAR in wording as in LONG vs PROLONGED) and 20 hours on how the courts had interpreted the rules in real life ..... one of the most useful courses I ever took . . . 

I accept your contempt for the merchant marine, its been well documented, I however hold most of the USCG in high esteem. .  But then again, when you have a power to weight ratio about 10 times higher than a merchant ship, its easy to say I can maneuver around things.  And yes, in addition to the difficult (I never considered them to be "trick" questions), there are the vast majority of the USCG exam questions that are so out of date they are ludicrous. BTW, I never said that I disagreed with how the courts would interpret the rules, in fact I said there would be no lessening of responsibility towards the ship even if found to be in the right, I am saying that the real world implementation of those rules is different than the actual rule.  I guess when the scull drifted in front of your ship you didn't "wake him up" with a 5 short blast, because there were other ships in sight, and they might "misunderstand" what your signal was?  We find that if the boat is directly under the forward horn, that tends to give them an idea that they may be the subject of the loud noise.  But, you go on "intercepting, examining, and evaluating" and have a nice night.

[AmazedByCruising]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

BTW, I never said that I disagreed with how the courts would interpret the rules, in fact I said there would be no lessening of responsibility towards the ship even if found to be in the right, I am saying that the real world implementation of those rules is different than the actual rule.  

 

Who's the judge in international waters for simple traffic incidents? I guess large shipping companies and insurers like Lloyds would have contracts between them based on mediation, trying to stay away from judges. But what if my small yacht gets destroyed by a huge oil tanker in the middle of the Pacific, while I had right of way? 

Edited January 19, 2019 by AmazedByCruising

[MicCanberra]

Probably wouldn't get to a judge,a s you would be "swimmin' with the fishes"

[Elaine5715]

4 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

And again, quite well aware of the "rules", and as Capt Heidi13 says, there are the rules and there is the real world application of those rules.  No one ever said there was a "get out of jail" card, or "rule of gross tons" (though its joked about), but there is the reality that there is little a fully laden tanker can do to avoid a smaller, more agile boat that consciously places itself into an unsafe situation.  Yes, if a ship hits a small boat, there is no automatic dismissal of responsibility for the ship, even if it is shown that the boat was negligent.  And when a boat enters the ship's blind spot, putting the helm over or stopping the engine will not affect the outcome much if at all.  There are the Rules of the Road, and then there are the Laws of Physics.

And the Laws of Darwin...

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, AmazedByCruising said:

 

Who's the judge in international waters for simple traffic incidents? I guess large shipping companies and insurers like Lloyds would have contracts between them based on mediation, trying to stay away from judges. But what if my small yacht gets destroyed by a huge oil tanker in the middle of the Pacific, while I had right of way? 

You would sue in an international maritime court in your boat's country of registry, and that court would adjudicate according to international maritime law as to who was at fault, awards, etc.  No, there are no contracts between shipping companies and insurers, but just like in land court cases, the lawyers for the two parties can get together and reach a settlement without a judge.

[Heidi13]

4 hours ago, Capt_BJ said:

like so many

 

you did not apply the rule I mentioned

 

which provides an answer (if the parties know and apply the rules)

 

many merchant sailors simply apply "I'm bigger" as the rule of law ..... or "I'll not change course cuz that costs money and I'm rated on fuel costs"

 

I always stressed this to my CG deck officers ..... the merchie or cruise ship WILL NOT TURN cuz it costs $$

 

I 'respected' this as a truth but wonder how many incidents were caused by it . . . 

 

MY JOB was to intercept, examine and evaluate ..... different from get from A to B at least cost .....

 

btw .. real world application is how the COURTS interpret the rules .... a big difference from what many believe the rules say.  Back in the 80's Seaman's Church had a very good 40 hour course on the rules.  20 hours was how to pass the USCG test (known to be loaded with trick questions ... in that they were VERY PARTICULAR in wording as in LONG vs PROLONGED) and 20 hours on how the courts had interpreted the rules in real life ..... one of the most useful courses I ever took . . . 

I am more than happy to discuss the COLREGS, as for 2MFG in UK we were required to recite the first 3 sections or rules 1 - 19 verbatim. This was required for both the orals and the written, multiple guess exam where many of the questions could best be described as ridiculous. As a P&O cadet we were also tested on COLREGS during our sea phases and were required to repeat any rule requested word perfect.

 

Sadly, reciting them verbatim did not provide an actual understanding, or ability to effectively interpret them. This skill was not learned in a college, but at sea as a Junior Officer. By the time we sat Master's CoC we  knew the rules to satisfy any examiner and how to apply them in the real world. Rule 9B looks great on paper, but frankly I couldn't care if a sailboat was 19.9m or 20m, my primary expectation of my officers was to take whatever action was necessary to miss it. If they didn't, I took over and took the action to avoid collision.

 

Having spent 28 years commanding large, fast (up to 45 kts) pax Ro/Ro vessels in confined tidal waters with an abundance of small boats, without incident, I suggest my interpretation works. However, in saying that I also recognise that your interpretation of the COLREGS worked in your operation.

 

As a marine professional, I cannot imagine being critical of other operations in our industry. Merchant, Naval, Coast Guard, Rig Supply and fishing, etc all have different levels of training and different operational demands. Sadly, all have experienced operational incidents, yes - even the Coast Guard and UK/Canada/US Navy. Navigational incidents are not only experienced by Merchant ships.

 

In the last 10 - 15 years, many merchant companies, especially cruise lines and ferries are implementing Bridge Resource Management programs, similar to the Cockpit Resource Management being used in the airline industry. Having participated in these programs, which include Human Factors training and risk management training, I actually developed a Level 2 Fleet Operations Bridge Policy before retirement. In addition to initial training, Bridge Teams get regular refresher training in simulators.

 

On Merchant Ships, we do not have access to tax payer funds, so yes, as Captain I am always concerned about costs, but only after the primary consideration, which was the safety of my ship, the crew and passengers. Stating you instructed your officers that cruise ships will not turn as it costs $$$, in my opinion, is more indicative of your opinion of Merchant Navy Officers and Captains. I note that in the Dover Straits, blatant failure to adhere to the COLREGS will result in prosecution.

 

The marine industry has numerous challenges, especially within the Merchant Navy, as we have many specialist areas. I worked in one of these specialist areas. Many deep sea Captains could not survive our demanding navigation and except in extreme situations, maintaining a schedule. Personally, I could not have done your job, and I doubt you could have done mine, as officers with very literal interpretation of the COLREGS, generally could not adapt to our speed and navigation in confined tidal waters. In these operations, the Captain's role has changed significantly.

 

BTW - we made liberal use of Rule 2 B, since most situations we dealt with were applicable. For others - it basically allows us to make a departure from the Rules to avoid immediate danger, provided we consider dangers to navigation/collision and limitations of vessels. I also at no time have indicated using "might is right".

[Greg4502]

The most important horn you don't want to hear, is the one you hear, when you ashore. That's the ship leaving port and you missed the ship.

Edited January 19, 2019 by Greg4502

[gooch47]

This discussion reminds me of the joke about a tombstone with the inscription, "But I had the Right of Way."

[MicCanberra]

6 hours ago, Greg4502 said:

The most important horn you don't want to hear, is the one you hear, when you ashore. That's the ship leaving port and you missed the ship.

Agreed if not on the ship, but on the ship it would be the 7 short and one long blast.

[MicCanberra]

4 hours ago, gooch47 said:

This discussion reminds me of the joke about a tombstone with the inscription, "But I had the Right of Way."

A bit like the "I told you I was sick" one. or the George Johnson epitaph at boot hill, Tombstone "He was right, we were wrong, but we strung him up and now he's gone."

[navybankerteacher]

“He was right, dead right, as he sped along;  but he’s just as dead as if he’d been wrong.”

[SRF]

22 hours ago, GeeDunk said:

Served on an Essex Class Carrier..

 

Was on the Sea and Anchor detail, in Sky One, Main Battle Gun Director, above the Bridge.

 

We would give range and bearing when pulling in to a Port.

 

Too many times a small craft would play "chicken" with us.

 

Can not fix stupid.

 

Which one?

 

My Dad was CIC Officer on Lex for 2 cruises, late 50s.  Did an ASW operational cruise on Hornet, in 62.  And a staff cruise on the Essex in 67.

[GeeDunk]

1 hour ago, SRF said:

 

Which one?

U.S.S. Randolph (CVA15).

My Avatar.

 

 

My Dad was CIC Officer on Lex for 2 cruises, late 50s.  Did an ASW operational cruise on Hornet, in 62.  And a staff cruise on the Essex in 67.

I was just a lowly FT2 (Fire Control Tech).

Late 50s also.

 

Edited January 19, 2019 by GeeDunk

[MicCanberra]

I have been on the USS Intrepid, the USS Midway and the USS Missouri.

[Heidi13]

5 hours ago, MicCanberra said:

Agreed if not on the ship, but on the ship it would be the 7 short and one long blast.

Only thing worse is the verbal "Abandon Ship"