What If NCL files for bankruptcy? And we have cruises book ?

[SteveH2508]

28 minutes ago, bmwman said:

Its not a  section 75 Claim. Under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, the credit card company is jointly and severally liable for any breach of contract or misrepresentation by the retailer or trader. As it may e an insolvency event it is not as far as I am aware breach of contract. But I am not a lawyer!

 

Its a claim for non provision of service.

 

Absolutely yes I have . (but not on this scale) Especially where they are selling future vouchers (cruise next). 

 

Will it happen in this case - not expected  but if the CC  companies get cold feet with a large  company like NCL  then anything is possible 

It clearly falls within S75 CCA74 (I used to enforce the CCA74 in my previous career). It is a breach of contract due to non-performance. The fact that we have an absolute entitlement to a refund under the Package Travel etc. Regs 2018 (Reg. 14) would just add weight to our case. Also NCL are ABTA bonded so that would also cover it.

 

The credit card companies are probably soiling themselves thinking about the potential claims coming their way (and not just from cancelled travel claims).

 

I was thinking in particular about the (pre-CV) travel company failures (e.g. Thompson).The CC companies were processing payments to them right up to the end (probably also with FlyBe).

Edited March 21, 2020 by SteveH2508

[Lionkingrichard]

On 3/20/2020 at 2:31 PM, njhorseman said:

I have no idea where you're getting that number from. Per the consolidated balance sheet on page F-6 of the NCLH 10-K filed Feb 27, 2020, the corporation had about 253 million in cash on hand as of December 31, 2019.

 

You don't even have to go back to the 10-K to find the balance sheet. You can find it in post 88 of this thread .

Add this to cash on hand!

 

 

Item 2.03. Creation of a Direct Financial Obligation or an Obligation under an Off-Balance Sheet Arrangement of a Registrant.

 

As previously disclosed, Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings Ltd., through its subsidiaries, NCL Corporation Ltd. (“NCLC”) and Voyager Vessel Company, LLC are parties to an $875 million revolving credit facility, dated as of January 2, 2019 and maturing on January 2, 2024, with JPMorgan Chase Bank, N.A. (“JPM”), as administrative agent and as collateral agent, and certain other lenders party thereto (the “Fourth Amended and Restated Credit Agreement”), and NCLC and Norwegian Epic, Ltd. are parties to a $675 million revolving credit facility, dated as of March 5, 2020 and maturing on March 4, 2021, with JPM, as administrative agent and as collateral agent, and certain other lenders party thereto (the “Norwegian Epic Credit Agreement”).

 

Beginning on March 12, 2020, NCLC borrowed under both the Fourth Amended and Restated Credit Agreement and the Norwegian Epic Credit Agreement the full amount of $1.55 billion.

 

[njhorseman]

1 hour ago, Lionkingrichard said:

Add this to cash on hand!

 

 

Item 2.03. Creation of a Direct Financial Obligation or an Obligation under an Off-Balance Sheet Arrangement of a Registrant.

 

As previously disclosed, Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings Ltd., through its subsidiaries, NCL Corporation Ltd. (“NCLC”) and Voyager Vessel Company, LLC are parties to an $875 million revolving credit facility, dated as of January 2, 2019 and maturing on January 2, 2024, with JPMorgan Chase Bank, N.A. (“JPM”), as administrative agent and as collateral agent, and certain other lenders party thereto (the “Fourth Amended and Restated Credit Agreement”), and NCLC and Norwegian Epic, Ltd. are parties to a $675 million revolving credit facility, dated as of March 5, 2020 and maturing on March 4, 2021, with JPM, as administrative agent and as collateral agent, and certain other lenders party thereto (the “Norwegian Epic Credit Agreement”).

 

Beginning on March 12, 2020, NCLC borrowed under both the Fourth Amended and Restated Credit Agreement and the Norwegian Epic Credit Agreement the full amount of $1.55 billion.

 

Yes, I'm well aware of the fact that NCL has a line of credit secured by the Epic. That provides cash to draw on but creates a huge liability on their books. It's not something you want to do unless you are concerned your cash flow is going to be insufficient to pay your debt service and your other obligations such as employee salaries. NCL knows very well that their cash on hand was likely to be be insufficient to carry them through this crisis.

[angere1]

they won't go bankrupt. A lot of the panic I hear on this post is from the people that purchased all of the toilet paper. Be aware of that.....lol

[sfaaa]

3 hours ago, njhorseman said:

Yes, I'm well aware of the fact that NCL has a line of credit secured by the Epic. That provides cash to draw on but creates a huge liability on their books. It's not something you want to do unless you are concerned your cash flow is going to be insufficient to pay your debt service and your other obligations such as employee salaries. NCL knows very well that their cash on hand was likely to be be insufficient to carry them through this crisis.

NCL is not the only one with cash flow issues. Many businesses large and small as well as individual households are all facing the same problem. It's no longer that unusual and now the new normal.

[njhorseman]

55 minutes ago, sfaaa said:

NCL is not the only one with cash flow issues. Many businesses large and small as well as individual households are all facing the same problem. It's no longer that unusual and now the new normal.

Yes, I know, but we're specifically talking about NCL here. I was addressing a poster who first claimed NCL had 4 times more cash on hand than it actually did and then apparently thought the secured line of credit was an indication of NCL's financial strength.

[mianmike]

4 hours ago, angere1 said:

they won't go bankrupt. A lot of the panic I hear on this post is from the people that purchased all of the toilet paper. Be aware of that.....lol

 

Would you mind showing your math?  Thanks

[luv2kroooz]

4 hours ago, angere1 said:

they won't go bankrupt. A lot of the panic I hear on this post is from the people that purchased all of the toilet paper. Be aware of that.....lol

Not sure how you can represent this. It's not panic, but reality.

 

Do you know how long the travel ban will last? 

Do you know when demand will return to pre coronavirus levels?

 

By the way, I hope they don't go bankrupt. Obviously, I am not an NCL champion, but mainly due to corporate philosophy and lack of customer service.

 

I have had memorable times aboard their ships.

 

Also, if they go under there is a lot of spillover....travel agents, Uber drivers, airport fees, port fees, etc.

[sfaaa]

21 minutes ago, blcruising said:

 

Do you know when demand will return to pre coronavirus levels?

 

 

I doubt it will take very long. Many are holding FCC that will expire by end of next year. And then there are a lot of cruising addicts who can't wait to get on the ship and resume cruising. 

[mugtech]

5 hours ago, njhorseman said:

Yes, I'm well aware of the fact that NCL has a line of credit secured by the Epic. 

Would not miss the Epic.

[bmwman]

On 3/21/2020 at 9:25 PM, SteveH2508 said:

It clearly falls within S75 CCA74 (I used to enforce the CCA74 in my previous career). It is a breach of contract due to non-performance. The fact that we have an absolute entitlement to a refund under the Package Travel etc. Regs 2018 (Reg. 14) would just add weight to our case. Also NCL are ABTA bonded so that would also cover it.

 

The credit card companies are probably soiling themselves thinking about the potential claims coming their way (and not just from cancelled travel claims).

 

I was thinking in particular about the (pre-CV) travel company failures (e.g. Thompson).The CC companies were processing payments to them right up to the end (probably also with FlyBe).

Agree with the ABTA position absolutely. I think you are correct too about the state of cc companies current indigestion … but you are may not be  correct regarding non performance for an insolvency event is not covered by s75 CCA74. S75 

 

S75 If the debtor under a debtor-creditor-supplier agreement falling within section 12(b) or (c) has, in relation to a transaction financed by the agreement, any claim against the supplier in respect of a misrepresentation or breach of contract, he shall have a like claim against the creditor, who, with the supplier, shall accordingly be jointly and severally liable to the debtor

 

The creditor is NCL in this case but where is the breach of contract if it files for Chapter 11. I suggest you would have the devils own job enforcing that in court. If I was defending the CC companies (would not happen!) I think I would have a very strong defence. You surely  accept is not misrepresentation unless NCL had knowledge when they sold a cruise that it would be unlikely to perform 

 

There are  however other sections you could rely upon but not S75 IMHO 

Edited March 23, 2020 by bmwman

[bmwman]

6 hours ago, angere1 said:

they won't go bankrupt. A lot of the panic I hear on this post is from the people that purchased all of the toilet paper. Be aware of that.....lol

Really …. I would hate to see them go but you only need to do the maths. work it out how many weeks thy have left!! 

 

If as I think we all hope they do it will be a very weakend company and I predict hay will go back t o deep discounts to drive revenue then profits. 

 

FDR has ruined the company and the pricing was already starting to fall from the stupid levels it got to in 2018/19. They got the pricing to the UK market badly wrong.

 

A big problem this year is that Europe will remain closed for the summer and where will they redeploy the ships. The same place as others. That equals much competition and deep price cuts and no new ships. Sorry NCL your balance sheet is not strong enough to support the losses and new ships.

 

Consolidate (do not innovate for the time being) and we prey you will survive. - under new management or maybe the old CEO!!! 

[angere1]

27 minutes ago, bmwman said:

Really …. I would hate to see them go but you only need to do the maths. work it out how many weeks thy have left!! 

 

If as I think we all hope they do it will be a very weakend company and I predict hay will go back t o deep discounts to drive revenue then profits. 

 

FDR has ruined the company and the pricing was already starting to fall from the stupid levels it got to in 2018/19. They got the pricing to the UK market badly wrong.

 

A big problem this year is that Europe will remain closed for the summer and where will they redeploy the ships. The same place as others. That equals much competition and deep price cuts and no new ships. Sorry NCL your balance sheet is not strong enough to support the losses and new ships.

 

Consolidate (do not innovate for the time being) and we prey you will survive. - under new management or maybe the old CEO!!! 

I guess we will see what happens..... It’s a real bad situation but I believe the economy will bounce back quickly after this crisis. As soon as this is over everyone will need a vacation.....I’m trying to be optimistic. 

[bmwman]

4 minutes ago, angere1 said:

I guess we will see what happens..... It’s a real bad situation but I believe the economy will bounce back quickly after this crisis. As soon as this is over everyone will need a vacation.....I’m trying to be optimistic. 

From your mouth to the lords ears 

[Love my butler]

4 hours ago, mugtech said:

Would not miss the Epic.

Hopefully they will default and the Epic will be the Carnival Epic.

[mugtech]

13 minutes ago, Love my butler said:

Hopefully they will default and the Epic will be the Carnival Epic.

Would think Carnival would be smart enough to give her a new name despite old sailing superstitions about name changes.  Probably would not tout the inovative bathroom designs.

[SteveH2508]

7 hours ago, bmwman said:

Agree with the ABTA position absolutely. I think you are correct too about the state of cc companies current indigestion … but you are may not be  correct regarding non performance for an insolvency event is not covered by s75 CCA74. S75 

 

S75 If the debtor under a debtor-creditor-supplier agreement falling within section 12(b) or (c) has, in relation to a transaction financed by the agreement, any claim against the supplier in respect of a misrepresentation or breach of contract, he shall have a like claim against the creditor, who, with the supplier, shall accordingly be jointly and severally liable to the debtor

 

The creditor is NCL in this case but where is the breach of contract if it files for Chapter 11. I suggest you would have the devils own job enforcing that in court. If I was defending the CC companies (would not happen!) I think I would have a very strong defence. You surely  accept is not misrepresentation unless NCL had knowledge when they sold a cruise that it would be unlikely to perform 

 

There are  however other sections you could rely upon but not S75 IMHO 

NCL breached the contract when they sent that letter cancelling all cruises. At that point the S75 claim materialised, therefore the CC company are jointly and severally liable to me, because the triggering event was the letter which breached the contract. Getting their money back from a bankrupt NCL is the CC companies problem, not mine.

[bmwman]

1 hour ago, SteveH2508 said:

NCL breached the contract when they sent that letter cancelling all cruises. At that point the S75 claim materialised, therefore the CC company are jointly and severally liable to me, because the triggering event was the letter which breached the contract. Getting their money back from a bankrupt NCL is the CC companies problem, not mine.

Ah …. Cruise cancelled due to what I would argue is an act of G-d.

 

Sorry Steve I think the enforcers are in for a fight. If I were the credit card companies I would argue this is not a breach but an act of G-d.

 

It is a moot point but S75 is as clear as mud on this point. Some law firm is about earn big!

Edited March 23, 2020 by bmwman

[gmasters]

Im booking when they say THEY are....READY

 

I tried to read all the posts here, and in doing so I have learned that MY Personal Views will not make a difference to half the  people.

My wife and I travel, when I say that we travel its for no other reason other than to get away from us being on call 24/7. We can cruise (her choice) or motorhome (my choice)

A 11 day cruise out of NY, cost us about the same as 40 day 6900 mile cross country trip.

But Im willing to give NCL  money the first month they say they have ships LEAVING port. I wouldn't care if the ship just cruised the ocean and returned to the same port. I guess thats why I love TA cruises the best. 

15 years, 175 days aboard NCL, not always happy about cruise afterwards... NOTHING to do with service, but other PEOPLE who thank its always about THEM.

 

One thing about bail outs. Our income will not change over the next year, My parents (retired) income will not change, Our 2 children, and 2 grand kids (working)  income will not change. I don't need a bail out nor my family, but we will be getting checks that could help LAID OFF works. What will  YOU do with MONEY you don't need.... waste it on another cruise, its all a waste after home, food, clothes. And Im sad to say half of those COST to me personally are waste full... remember I have a motorhome its not as wasteful as my brothers boat.

 

Sorry I never like to comment other than (pressing the HEART agreement) I get carried away... 

My wife always says DONT get him started

 

When ever we all feel safe to leave the house, just wash your hands

[sverigecruiser]

 

Maybe this has been mentioned but there are too many posts to read.

 

Can the ships be used in any way so that NCL can get some money? Hotels? Hospitals? (I don't mean intensive care but maybe "easier" things.) Cruises to nowhere without port days? Soon lots of people will be recovered Corona patients and maybe they can cruise if they are immune? 

[sverigecruiser]

2 hours ago, gmasters said:

 

One thing about bail outs. Our income will not change over the next year, My parents (retired) income will not change, Our 2 children, and 2 grand kids (working)  income will not change. I don't need a bail out nor my family, but we will be getting checks that could help LAID OFF works. What will  YOU do with MONEY you don't need.... waste it on another cruise, its all a waste after home, food, clothes. And Im sad to say half of those COST to me personally are waste full... remember I have a motorhome its not as wasteful as my brothers boat.

 

I hope that you are right but how sure can you be that your income won't change?

 

I'm a teacher and feel that my employment is rather safe, unless lots of young children dies. My wife is working in the foodindustri and everyone will still need to eat so her income seems rather safe too but who knows.

 

I'm not worried yet so don't plan any mayor changes in my life. The only thing I have planned to do is to withdraw some extra cash just in case.

[njhorseman]

2 hours ago, sverigecruiser said:

 

Maybe this has been mentioned but there are too many posts to read.

 

Can the ships be used in any way so that NCL can get some money? Hotels? Hospitals? (I don't mean intensive care but maybe "easier" things.) Cruises to nowhere without port days? Soon lots of people will be recovered Corona patients and maybe they can cruise if they are immune? 

No, no and no. 

Hotels are empty and many are closed. No need for ships.

 

There is a long thread on the "Ask a Cruise Question " board on using cruise ships as hospitals. While Carnival has made a public offer to do so, it doesn't appear to be practical for a variety of reasons. In the US the government is dispatching two 1.000 bed Navy hospital ships to provide additional capacity, one each to New York and the West Coast.

 

In the US at least "cruises to nowhere" are no longer legal. Plus even if cruisers were immune to Covid-19 what about the crew?

Edited March 23, 2020 by njhorseman

[sverigecruiser]

23 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

No, no and no. 

Hotels are empty and many are closed. No need for ships.

 

There is a long thread on the "Ask a Cruise Question " board on using cruise ships as hospitals. While Carnival has made a public offer to do so, it doesn't appear to be practical for a variety of reasons. In the US the government is dispatching two 1.000 bed Navy hospital ships to provide additional capacity, one each to New York and the West Coast.

 

In the US at least "cruises to nowhere" are no longer legal. Plus even if cruisers were immune to Covid-19 what about the crew?

 

Yes hotels are empty now but some places may need or want more capacity and a cruise ship can be moved. NCL may not care if other hotels are empty so if they can sell cabins as hotelroom to get some money that's an option.

 

I understand the problem with using ships as hospitals.

 

Cruises to nowhere may not be legal right now but things can change. Maybe they can anchor somewhere outside the US for a day, or an hour, without meeting any people from that country?

 

Lots of crewmembers will also soon be recovered after having Corona so if they are immune they can work on a ship.

Edited March 23, 2020 by sverigecruiser

[njhorseman]

34 minutes ago, sverigecruiser said:

 

Yes hotels are empty now but some places may need or want more capacity and a cruise ship can be moved. NCL may not care if other hotels are empty so if they can sell cabins as hotelroom to get some money that's an option.

 

I understand the problem with using ships as hospitals.

 

Cruises to nowhere may not be legal right now but things can change. Maybe they can anchor somewhere outside the US for a day, or an hour, without meeting any people from that country?

 

Lots of crewmembers will also soon be recovered after having Corona so if they are immune they can work on a ship.

Frankly, I have no idea what your point is with regard to hotel rooms. Given the choice between a hotel room and a tiny cruise ship cabin I'd take the hotel room any time. I can't imagine any demand for cruise ship cabins.

 

No, they can't just anchor outside a country. That's also illegal.  Passengers have to be given the opportunity to disembark and go ashore for the port call to satisfy the PVSA requirements . That requirement can only be waived for national security reasons, not because people want to take a vacation and cruise lines want to make money.

 

How are you going to be sure that crew from third world countries with questionable medical systems and facilities have already had and recovered from Covid-19?

[sverigecruiser]

34 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

Frankly, I have no idea what your point is with regard to hotel rooms. Given the choice between a hotel room and a tiny cruise ship cabin I'd take the hotel room any time. I can't imagine any demand for cruise ship cabins.

 

I should take cruise ship cabin and time if the ship can be docked in a central location, for example in New York, Stockholm, Barcelona, Miami, Honolulu....

 

People are different but I love to cruise and if no cruises are available I should be happy to at least stay at a cruise ship hotel.