Viking Ship Locations

[chengkp75]

Yes, NCL has vowed to put HEPA filters in place, but without any proof that there is actually any viruses being brought to the filter in the first place, it becomes more of a "window dressing" or PR measure than any actual preventative means.

 

While the first article you reference talks about poor air quality, all measurements were taken on outside decks, and no data was given as to the ship operation or ambient weather conditions at the time the samples were taken.  Then, an air filter manufacturer extrapolates this poor outside air quality to "could possibly" affect indoor air quality.  Where is the data showing that existing filtration is not doing a sufficient job to provide clean air inside the ship?  I don't see a single bit of data taken inside.

 

The second article discusses high flu incidence among cruise passengers.  Does this say that the HVAC system is to blame?  It actually doesn't even get into the why there is a high incidence at all.  Many people in close quarters, breathing on each other, and sitting in places with mechanical ventilation that causes airflow in the room to spread the virus further than normal breathing/sneezing/coughing are far more likely candidates for high spread of disease than to believe that the virus, in a viable condition, and in contagious quantities, can travel the long distances in ductwork both from the room to the air handler, through the filter, and back to the room.

 

The Japanese government report on Diamond Princess showed that the most likely transmission vector after quarantine was emplaced, was the crew, who continued to work in close quarters, and who were not fully trained on airborne pathogen mediation methods.  In fact, the placing of people into their cabins was the best thing that was done, since the cabins do not share air with other cabins, while public spaces do.  While the Japanese did find covid RNA fragments (not viable viruses) on the air registers in cabins many days after the ship was emptied, it is important to note that this was all found in cabins where the occupants were actively infected, and none was found in cabins where the occupants were not infected.

 

As I've explained many times, cruise ship cabin HVAC is comprised of three systems.  The first system takes outside air, filters and cools it, and supplies it, in one way airflow, to banks of cabins.  The second system takes cabin air from the bathrooms of a bank of cabins, and exhausts it, in one way airflow, to the outside.  These two systems are one way flow only, so there is no mixing of air between cabins in these two systems.  The amount of air supplied from outside the ship is slightly more than the amount taken from the bathroom, and this places the cabin at a slight positive pressure with regards to the outside of the ship, and the passageway outside the cabin.  This allows air to always flow from the cabin to the passageway, under the door, and is to prevent smoke transmission to unaffected cabins in case of a fire.  The third HVAC system a cruise ship cabin has is the recirculation system, where air is taken from the cabin, passed over a filter and cooler that are just for that cabin, and returns the cooled air to that same cabin.  This is the system controlled by the cabin thermostat.  Again, there is no mixing of air with other cabins.

 

Now, in public spaces on the ship, the same three systems are at work, but with the public spaces kept at a slight negative pressure, and with the likelihood that recirculated air is mixed with air from other public spaces, since the spaces are commonly open to each other, causing airflow to mix the air.

 

The CDC, in its most recent directive on how to remediate a ship during and after a covid case is found onboard, does not require any extra filtration of the HVAC system, nor any special cleaning of the HVAC system, showing that they do not believe there would be viable virus transmission via the ductwork of the HVAC system.  The HVAC system on cruise ships is no different than those on any commercial building or high rise office or residential building anywhere in the world, and you don't see any call for modifications to those systems prior to allowing people to work or live there.

[Heidi13]

Viking Orion has departed Manila Anchorage and is bound for Hong Kong, with an ETA of July 3rd.

 

In Belfast, the drydocked ship Stena Europe is no longer displaying heading info, so may not be departing shortly.

[Dukefan]

8 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Yes, NCL has vowed to put HEPA filters in place, but without any proof that there is actually any viruses being brought to the filter in the first place, it becomes more of a "window dressing" or PR measure than any actual preventative means.

 

While the first article you reference talks about poor air quality, all measurements were taken on outside decks, and no data was given as to the ship operation or ambient weather conditions at the time the samples were taken.  Then, an air filter manufacturer extrapolates this poor outside air quality to "could possibly" affect indoor air quality.  Where is the data showing that existing filtration is not doing a sufficient job to provide clean air inside the ship?  I don't see a single bit of data taken inside.

 

The second article discusses high flu incidence among cruise passengers.  Does this say that the HVAC system is to blame?  It actually doesn't even get into the why there is a high incidence at all.  Many people in close quarters, breathing on each other, and sitting in places with mechanical ventilation that causes airflow in the room to spread the virus further than normal breathing/sneezing/coughing are far more likely candidates for high spread of disease than to believe that the virus, in a viable condition, and in contagious quantities, can travel the long distances in ductwork both from the room to the air handler, through the filter, and back to the room.

 

The Japanese government report on Diamond Princess showed that the most likely transmission vector after quarantine was emplaced, was the crew, who continued to work in close quarters, and who were not fully trained on airborne pathogen mediation methods.  In fact, the placing of people into their cabins was the best thing that was done, since the cabins do not share air with other cabins, while public spaces do.  While the Japanese did find covid RNA fragments (not viable viruses) on the air registers in cabins many days after the ship was emptied, it is important to note that this was all found in cabins where the occupants were actively infected, and none was found in cabins where the occupants were not infected.

 

As I've explained many times, cruise ship cabin HVAC is comprised of three systems.  The first system takes outside air, filters and cools it, and supplies it, in one way airflow, to banks of cabins.  The second system takes cabin air from the bathrooms of a bank of cabins, and exhausts it, in one way airflow, to the outside.  These two systems are one way flow only, so there is no mixing of air between cabins in these two systems.  The amount of air supplied from outside the ship is slightly more than the amount taken from the bathroom, and this places the cabin at a slight positive pressure with regards to the outside of the ship, and the passageway outside the cabin.  This allows air to always flow from the cabin to the passageway, under the door, and is to prevent smoke transmission to unaffected cabins in case of a fire.  The third HVAC system a cruise ship cabin has is the recirculation system, where air is taken from the cabin, passed over a filter and cooler that are just for that cabin, and returns the cooled air to that same cabin.  This is the system controlled by the cabin thermostat.  Again, there is no mixing of air with other cabins.

 

Now, in public spaces on the ship, the same three systems are at work, but with the public spaces kept at a slight negative pressure, and with the likelihood that recirculated air is mixed with air from other public spaces, since the spaces are commonly open to each other, causing airflow to mix the air.

 

The CDC, in its most recent directive on how to remediate a ship during and after a covid case is found onboard, does not require any extra filtration of the HVAC system, nor any special cleaning of the HVAC system, showing that they do not believe there would be viable virus transmission via the ductwork of the HVAC system.  The HVAC system on cruise ships is no different than those on any commercial building or high rise office or residential building anywhere in the world, and you don't see any call for modifications to those systems prior to allowing people to work or live there.

Thanks for the detailed information.   Like I said early you know significantly more about this than I do.  The only thing I know is what I read.  After reading your post, I still wonder why the virus transmitted so much more on several cruise ship than it did in hotels and resorts?   From your post I assume you are saying that cruise ships environments are no worst than any other areas.  Is that correct?  If not what actions should cruise lines be taking to reduce their risks?

[chengkp75]

44 minutes ago, Dukefan said:

Thanks for the detailed information.   Like I said early you know significantly more about this than I do.  The only thing I know is what I read.  After reading your post, I still wonder why the virus transmitted so much more on several cruise ship than it did in hotels and resorts?   From your post I assume you are saying that cruise ships environments are no worst than any other areas.  Is that correct?  If not what actions should cruise lines be taking to reduce their risks?

Hotels and resorts will remove people with symptoms to a hospital.  A cruise ship has to "enter" a country when it arrives at a port, and if it has individuals who are ill, that country can refuse entry to the vessel (a classical maritime quarantine scenario, and just what happened with covid), so the ill passengers remain onboard being served by untrained personnel, so the possibility of continued spread is far greater.  One scenario (the hotel or resort) is a case of a local health emergency (under the jurisdiction of state, county, or local health authorities), while the other scenario (cruise ship) is an international incident, and of course a nation's first responsibility in a health crisis is to protect its own citizens, and not people traveling from overseas.  The major reason that the Japanese health ministry found for the continued spread of the covid virus on the Diamond Princess was the use of untrained crew (untrained in remediation measures for airborne pathogens (the crew are well trained in remediating "contact" or "fecal/oral" pathogens like noro or e coli)) who continued to interact with the passengers.  If another outbreak happens on a cruise ship, either the country where the ship is quarantined, or the cruise line, needs to get a team of epidemiologists onboard to train, and continue to supervise crew in handling the virus.

[Dukefan]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

Hotels and resorts will remove people with symptoms to a hospital.  A cruise ship has to "enter" a country when it arrives at a port, and if it has individuals who are ill, that country can refuse entry to the vessel (a classical maritime quarantine scenario, and just what happened with covid), so the ill passengers remain onboard being served by untrained personnel, so the possibility of continued spread is far greater.  One scenario (the hotel or resort) is a case of a local health emergency (under the jurisdiction of state, county, or local health authorities), while the other scenario (cruise ship) is an international incident, and of course a nation's first responsibility in a health crisis is to protect its own citizens, and not people traveling from overseas.  The major reason that the Japanese health ministry found for the continued spread of the covid virus on the Diamond Princess was the use of untrained crew (untrained in remediation measures for airborne pathogens (the crew are well trained in remediating "contact" or "fecal/oral" pathogens like noro or e coli)) who continued to interact with the passengers.  If another outbreak happens on a cruise ship, either the country where the ship is quarantined, or the cruise line, needs to get a team of epidemiologists onboard to train, and continue to supervise crew in handling the virus.

Great points - thank you.    One final question - since most cruise ships have a doctor and at a minimum a trained medical professional on board shouldn't they be knowledgeable on how to deal with viruses and be accountable to training the crew how to deal with it?  Do you think that this will be a point of focus for the training of crew for the foreseeable future?    

[BigAl94]

Viking Sun has just departed Belfast, destination Douglas, Isle of Man. Looks like a change of plan.

[chengkp75]

12 hours ago, Dukefan said:

Great points - thank you.    One final question - since most cruise ships have a doctor and at a minimum a trained medical professional on board shouldn't they be knowledgeable on how to deal with viruses and be accountable to training the crew how to deal with it?  Do you think that this will be a point of focus for the training of crew for the foreseeable future?    

Not really.  The doctors onboard are typically ER or general practitioners, not epidemiologists, which is why they don't hold too much responsibility in the shipboard organization that deals with ship sanitation.  The medical department can deal with the results of a noro or covid outbreak, dealing with the patients medically, but training for the crew falls to others.  Why?  First, supervisors receive training from epidemiologists and public health inspectors from the USPH, the former who know how diseases transmit, and the latter who know how hospitality service actually works and how to mitigate what the epidemiologists point out as the transmission vectors in the actual routines of hospitality.  Those supervisors then train the crew.  Trying to rely on one person to oversee the training of up to 2000 crew is just not feasible.

 

When I was on cruise ships, we did an "in house" USPH inspection every week.  This was conducted by supervisors who had been trained by USPH in their sanitation procedures.  This inspection involved over 30 supervisors, typically in teams of two, inspecting every area of the ship.  The teams were set up to include one supervisor who worked in the area being inspected, so they knew the area, equipment, and personnel, and one supervisor who had nothing to do with that department, who looked at the area's operations with "outside eyes" to see things that the normal supervisor may have gone blind to.  Now, this was for contact types of transmissions mainly (noro, e. coli, botulism, pests, etc), and works very well, as the crew deal with this on a daily basis, to the point where it becomes second nature to them (washing hands, proper dish stacking, etc, etc).

 

The problem with an airborne pathogen is that most remediation methods are just not feasible in daily life (would you have ever accepted wearing a face mask and staying 6 feet from someone if there was no covid virus?), so training in this area would have to come during off duty hours, and the training would not result in the "muscle memory" that daily repetition gives, so this is why I feel that a team from corporate or a government, that is trained in containing disease outbreaks needs to be on standby to fly to whatever ship has a problem, with equipment, to initiate protocols, and to start up the procedures that the crew have already been trained on (but may not be proficient in), and stay onboard to wander and check on how the crew are doing and to immediately correct things, or to remove crew who may have been compromised.

[JeriGail]

Another news story published today - https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/23168-cruise-ship-repairs-start-at-harland-wolff-yard-eyes-newbuilds.html  It still references the 3 Viking ships, but does say that the 3 Viking vessels are there for "minor repairs and upgrade work".

[Dukefan]

The Viking Sun has departed Harland and Wolff in Belfast and is headed to the Port of Douglas, Isle of Man.

 

[Dukefan]

5 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Not really.  The doctors onboard are typically ER or general practitioners, not epidemiologists, which is why they don't hold too much responsibility in the shipboard organization that deals with ship sanitation.  The medical department can deal with the results of a noro or covid outbreak, dealing with the patients medically, but training for the crew falls to others.  Why?  First, supervisors receive training from epidemiologists and public health inspectors from the USPH, the former who know how diseases transmit, and the latter who know how hospitality service actually works and how to mitigate what the epidemiologists point out as the transmission vectors in the actual routines of hospitality.  Those supervisors then train the crew.  Trying to rely on one person to oversee the training of up to 2000 crew is just not feasible.

 

When I was on cruise ships, we did an "in house" USPH inspection every week.  This was conducted by supervisors who had been trained by USPH in their sanitation procedures.  This inspection involved over 30 supervisors, typically in teams of two, inspecting every area of the ship.  The teams were set up to include one supervisor who worked in the area being inspected, so they knew the area, equipment, and personnel, and one supervisor who had nothing to do with that department, who looked at the area's operations with "outside eyes" to see things that the normal supervisor may have gone blind to.  Now, this was for contact types of transmissions mainly (noro, e. coli, botulism, pests, etc), and works very well, as the crew deal with this on a daily basis, to the point where it becomes second nature to them (washing hands, proper dish stacking, etc, etc).

 

The problem with an airborne pathogen is that most remediation methods are just not feasible in daily life (would you have ever accepted wearing a face mask and staying 6 feet from someone if there was no covid virus?), so training in this area would have to come during off duty hours, and the training would not result in the "muscle memory" that daily repetition gives, so this is why I feel that a team from corporate or a government, that is trained in containing disease outbreaks needs to be on standby to fly to whatever ship has a problem, with equipment, to initiate protocols, and to start up the procedures that the crew have already been trained on (but may not be proficient in), and stay onboard to wander and check on how the crew are doing and to immediately correct things, or to remove crew who may have been compromised.

Thanks again for taking the time to help educate some of us on the challenges of dealing with an airborne pathogen on a cruise ship!

[Peregrina651]

6 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Not really.  The doctors onboard are typically ER or general practitioners, not epidemiologists, which is why they don't hold too much responsibility in the shipboard organization that deals with ship sanitation.  The medical department can deal with the results of a noro or covid outbreak, dealing with the patients medically, but training for the crew falls to others. 

 

Thank you! I learn new ship every time you post!

[JeriGail]

Now it looks like the Sun is headed to Dublin.

[Dukefan]

39 minutes ago, JeriGail said:

Now it looks like the Sun is headed to Dublin.

Its destination is shown as Douglas, Isle of Man with an ETA of 7 am on July 2nd but it sure looks like it's headed toward Dublin. 

[JeriGail]

9 minutes ago, Dukefan said:

Its destination is shown as Douglas, Isle of Man with an ETA of 7 am on July 2nd but it sure looks like it's headed toward Dublin. 

Maybe it's taking a long loop South and then will circle back around to Douglas?

Where do you find the destination information?  I'm using Cruise Mapper for the location.

[chengkp75]

46 minutes ago, JeriGail said:

Maybe it's taking a long loop South and then will circle back around to Douglas?

Where do you find the destination information?  I'm using Cruise Mapper for the location.

Cruise Mapper is notorious for inaccurate tracks, mostly when ships divert from their published itineraries.  Use Marine Traffic or Vessel Finder for better information, including the next port of call.  My suspicion is that the ship needs to get outside of territorial waters and be 12 miles offshore to make some water, and possibly discharge treated bilge water (has to be underway to do these), before heading for a long term berth, so its heading down the Irish Sea for a few more hours and then back to Man, at current speed, she can cover about 100 miles and still make her estimated arrival.

[JeriGail]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Cruise Mapper is notorious for inaccurate tracks, mostly when ships divert from their published itineraries.  Use Marine Traffic or Vessel Finder for better information, including the next port of call.  My suspicion is that the ship needs to get outside of territorial waters and be 12 miles offshore to make some water, and possibly discharge treated bilge water (has to be underway to do these), before heading for a long term berth, so its heading down the Irish Sea for a few more hours and then back to Man, at current speed, she can cover about 100 miles and still make her estimated arrival.

Thanks - both Cruise Mapper and Vessel Finder show the Sun making a turn away from Dublin and heading East, so it looks like it is circling Man.

[Dukefan]

2 hours ago, JeriGail said:

Maybe it's taking a long loop South and then will circle back around to Douglas?

Where do you find the destination information?  I'm using Cruise Mapper for the location.

I use Vessel Finder.   The Viking Sun has turned east from its previous path and now appears to be headed toward the Isle of Man.   I believe Chengkp75 is correct, as he usually is, and the Sun was discharging bilge water before heading to Douglas.

[BigAl94]

Sun is due back in Belfast Friday morning according to Belfast port movements, some sort of sea trials I expect. 

[Heidi13]

As of 17:00 PST (Z-7), which is 01:00 BST (Z+1) she is 30 miles south of Douglas, still steaming at 8.6kts. Lots of time to make her ETA of 08:00 BST.

 

Stena Europe has her gyro stabalised, so could be departing the graving dock anytime. BigAl94 - any info on her departure?

[JeriGail]

It will be interesting to see where the Sun goes when she returns on Friday.

[BigAl94]

1 hour ago, Heidi13 said:

As of 17:00 PST (Z-7), which is 01:00 BST (Z+1) she is 30 miles south of Douglas, still steaming at 8.6kts. Lots of time to make her ETA of 08:00 BST.

 

Stena Europe has her gyro stabalised, so could be departing the graving dock anytime. BigAl94 - any info on her departure?

She looks like leaving late Thurs or early Fri. 

[BigAl94]

Heading back, destination unrecognised GBBNG which I assume is Bangor at the mouth of Belfast Lough. Maybe going to drop anchor in the bay this evening before sailing into Belfast in the morning?

[photopro2]

On 6/29/2020 at 3:59 PM, deec said:

Here is my wish list if they are doing interiors....

It is good to have a wish list but it seems very unlikely anything will be done beyond what is strictly necessary. As @Jerigail pointed out, the news is that that work will be limited to minor repairs and "upgrade work" which could describe installing whatever physical measures are needed for mitigation of virus transmission. So looking on the bright side (from your point of view) little to no chance of new planetariums 🪐 .....though I would not mind giving one a go myself 🙂 

[JeriGail]

3 hours ago, photopro2 said:

It is good to have a wish list but it seems very unlikely anything will be done beyond what is strictly necessary. As @Jerigail pointed out, the news is that that work will be limited to minor repairs and "upgrade work" which could describe installing whatever physical measures are needed for mitigation of virus transmission. So looking on the bright side (from your point of view) little to no chance of new planetariums 🪐 .....though I would not mind giving one a go myself 🙂 

I have to agree with @deec about the planetariums - they take up too much of the Explorer's Lounge.  I haven't cruise on Viking yet, but was really looking forward to the Lounge.  For me, the Sun seems to be the ideal Viking ship since it has the extra drawer storage in the closet, yet doesn't have a planetarium.

[JeriGail]

The Sun appears to have stopped near Bangor and it's destination is listed as Belfast ANCH - I'm assuming that means anchor.