Letter of Employment Sent to Waiter on Navigator of the Seas. Looks Like Short Sailings Are A Go November 1st.

[chengkp75]

8 minutes ago, Mapleleafforever said:

Is there data to suggest that it can't? There's a reason some Cruise lines are installing HEPA filters, one more big outbreak on a ship could end cruising altogether......

 

https://www.cruisecritic.com/articles.cfm?ID=5474

The reason they are doing this is exactly what livingonthebeach said, whether or not it does anything, it will make people feel safer.  To date, Professor Chen, of Purdue is the only researcher who has claimed that the virus could be carried through an HVAC system onboard, and even he had to step back when later questioned about how ship HVAC works.  He admitted that, like the article you linked, the concept of shipboard HVAC presented is not quite correct.  While it is completely true that in public spaces, air is recirculated, and due to the nature of many public spaces being open to each other, then air can  co-mingle upon recirculation.  However, as even Professor Chen admitted in a later interview, each individual cabin on the ship does not get comingled recirculated air.  The air in cabins comes from three HVAC systems.  One takes outside air (from outside the ship), cools it, and delivers it, one way, to multiple cabins in a zone.  The second system takes air from many cabin bathrooms, and exhausts this air outside the ship.  The third system takes air from within that cabin, and recirculates it through a cooling coil and fan that serves just that cabin.  So no cabin gets air from any other cabin.

 

And, neither the CDC nor the Japanese Ministry of Health have found any indication of viral transmission via HVAC systems.  If there was, every single building that uses central ventilation in the world would be a super-spreader location, because they all use recirculated air.

[Mapleleafforever]

4 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

The reason they are doing this is exactly what livingonthebeach said, whether or not it does anything, it will make people feel safer.  To date, Professor Chen, of Purdue is the only researcher who has claimed that the virus could be carried through an HVAC system onboard, and even he had to step back when later questioned about how ship HVAC works.  He admitted that, like the article you linked, the concept of shipboard HVAC presented is not quite correct.  While it is completely true that in public spaces, air is recirculated, and due to the nature of many public spaces being open to each other, then air can  co-mingle upon recirculation.  However, as even Professor Chen admitted in a later interview, each individual cabin on the ship does not get comingled recirculated air.  The air in cabins comes from three HVAC systems.  One takes outside air (from outside the ship), cools it, and delivers it, one way, to multiple cabins in a zone.  The second system takes air from many cabin bathrooms, and exhausts this air outside the ship.  The third system takes air from within that cabin, and recirculates it through a cooling coil and fan that serves just that cabin.  So no cabin gets air from any other cabin.

 

And, neither the CDC nor the Japanese Ministry of Health have found any indication of viral transmission via HVAC systems.  If there was, every single building that uses central ventilation in the world would be a super-spreader location, because they all use recirculated air.

Well, lets just see what the cruise lines and CDC come up with. And you are absolutely right that, for myself anyway, I would feel a lot safer with major air filtration systems in place. 

[chengkp75]

8 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

When do you think the CDC will accept or reject the general recommendations?  It's been almost a month now.  Don't the cruise lines need to know the answer before proceeding with detailed plans? 

I think the CDC will require a bit more detail before accepting the general recommendations, especially since the Healthy Sail report wants to substitute private shore based medical and quarantine facilities for the offshore (read in the cruise ship's ball park) ones the CDC required.  I believe the comment by HHS Secretary Azar during the telephone conference with VP Pence that the cruise lines will still need to "backstop" their program means they are not satisfied with the level of this private contracting, and fear that it will lead, once patients or exposed people overload the private facilities, to the problem they foresaw originally, of overloading the local health care industry.

 

As for getting action plans together, you can choose to wait it out and get your outlines approved, and then start spending money on writing action plans, or you can start crafting plans right away, knowing that there might be revisions, deletions, and additions along the way.  That second way is what I would have done, it is what we do every day at sea, with the ISM code.  The ISM code is basically a document that covers every single aspect of the company's operations, and you write what you do, and do what you  write.  However, it is a "living" document, and can and is modified and changed routinely, as best practices are evolved.  From what I've seen of some cruise line's response to environmental regulations (a big part of ISM), they have not embraced the philosophy entirely, and haven't developed to the being able and willing to make revisions almost on a daily basis.  For this reason, I feel they have followed the first method of developing the action plans, sitting on their hands, and waiting for someone else to make the decision, and for the pandemic to just go away.

[chengkp75]

7 minutes ago, Mapleleafforever said:

Well, lets just see what the cruise lines and CDC come up with. And you are absolutely right that, for myself anyway, I would feel a lot safer with major air filtration systems in place. 

The CDC, as part of the VSP (Vessel Sanitation Program) has required, for many years, the use of, and recorded replacement of, sanitizing pads in the condensation pans of ships' HVAC air handlers.  This is not a common practice shoreside, and results in the more frequent outbreaks of legionella on land than on ship.  And, that is for a bacteria that grows in the air handler, so it does not rely on being carried from the space through the ductwork to the air handler first.

[Missusdubbya]

1 hour ago, Ourusualbeach said:

Other topics of interest;

 

 - no planned extension on FCC's

 - look for a possible announcement on West Coast itineraries

 - new itinerary release to basically mirror last years release...look for early next month

This is excellent, thanks!

[Milwaukee Eight]

3 hours ago, time4u2go said:

And they are starting to tick back up, ever so slightly, over the past 10 days or so.  Hopefully that doesn't continue.

But the hospital beds are fine. You want the link?  Are we back to this again?

 

M8

[Milwaukee Eight]

3 hours ago, A&L_Ont said:

Not good for their family. I hope they power through as best as possible. ❤️

Only one shows any signs of symptoms. Described as a bad cold. 
 

M8

[Milwaukee Eight]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

While it is an airborne virus, there is no data to date that it can survive in a viable condition after traveling hundreds of feet down a return air duct, through a filter and air handler, and then back hundreds of feet to the space being air conditioned.  This is why there is no push to install filters in every building in the world (they all use recirculated air), or even smaller systems like bars and restaurants.  Even air filter industry groups will admit there is no indication that the use of HEPA filters would actually do anything in remediation of covid.  And, the airlines had HEPA filters long before covid.  As stated before, the CDC does not recommend any modification or cleaning of a ship's HVAC system, even in remediation of an outbreak of covid onboard.

 

That's why I said it wasn't required, so that ships could restart without any modifications to the HVAC systems.

But it works for fear mongering. SMH

 

Thanks Chief 

 

M8

[Mapleleafforever]

22 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

The CDC, as part of the VSP (Vessel Sanitation Program) has required, for many years, the use of, and recorded replacement of, sanitizing pads in the condensation pans of ships' HVAC air handlers.  This is not a common practice shoreside, and results in the more frequent outbreaks of legionella on land than on ship.  And, that is for a bacteria that grows in the air handler, so it does not rely on being carried from the space through the ductwork to the air handler first.

I haven't heard anything about legionella in quite some time, if ever. Covid-19 however, is all over the news and becoming even more so of late....even though it has a 99.9% survival rate. 

 

Let me be clear, I am not scared of the disease Covid-19 itself.  What I am very afraid of is if I'm on a ship and someone tests positive or someone in my party tests positive and there's a quarantine situation. 

[Milwaukee Eight]

21 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

I think the CDC will require a bit more detail before accepting the general recommendations, especially since the Healthy Sail report wants to substitute private shore based medical and quarantine facilities for the offshore (read in the cruise ship's ball park) ones the CDC required.

Thanks. I’ve been saying this all along. They ignored it the first time and again on their second attempt. They continue to want the US Ports to absorb the sick and expense should an outbreak occur onboard. For this reason, I don’t think the CDC should lift the No Sail order. 
 

M8

[greykitty]

Re legionella, from what I've read there's great concern especially as buildings are being reopened, if proper maintenance was not done along the way.  I agree, so much news it's incredibly difficult to keep up, let alone verify how authoritative the news really is.

 

Also,

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/legionella-discovered-at-miamisburg-hospital/ar-BB19MXNG

 

https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/legionnaires-disease-outbreak-in-lasalle-under-control-health-officials-say

[livingonthebeach]

7 minutes ago, Mapleleafforever said:

I haven't heard anything about legionella in quite some time, if ever. Covid-19 however, is all over the news and becoming even more so of late....even though it has a 99.9% survival rate. 

 

Let me be clear, I am not scared of the disease Covid-19 itself.  What I am very afraid of is if I'm on a ship and someone tests positive or someone in my party tests positive and there's a quarantine situation. 

 

Yes, having to quarantine is a real risk that many are concerned about and which hasn't been fully addressed by the cruise lines.  Hopefully they will come up with a solution that is acceptable to the CDC.  

[chengkp75]

6 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

Yes, having to quarantine is a real risk that many are concerned about and which hasn't been fully addressed by the cruise lines.  Hopefully they will come up with a solution that is acceptable to the CDC.  

Their plan is to have quarantine cabins available, but first you've got to do contact tracing to identify those who need to be quarantined, that takes time, and you've got a finite environment (the ship), so the longer that takes, the more secondary and tertiary contacts you have, and the more possible quarantine candidates, and then once the quarantine cabins run out, what happens?  Do they come into port, use private buses to move quarantine passengers to shore quarantine facilities?  These are the details that the CDC wants to know.

[chengkp75]

21 minutes ago, Mapleleafforever said:

I haven't heard anything about legionella in quite some time, if ever. Covid-19 however, is all over the news and becoming even more so of late....even though it has a 99.9% survival rate. 

 

Let me be clear, I am not scared of the disease Covid-19 itself.  What I am very afraid of is if I'm on a ship and someone tests positive or someone in my party tests positive and there's a quarantine situation. 

 

15 minutes ago, greykitty said:

Re legionella, from what I've read there's great concern especially as buildings are being reopened, if proper maintenance was not done along the way.  I agree, so much news it's incredibly difficult to keep up, let alone verify how authoritative the news really is.

 

Also,

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/legionella-discovered-at-miamisburg-hospital/ar-BB19MXNG

 

https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/legionnaires-disease-outbreak-in-lasalle-under-control-health-officials-say

There was an outbreak of legionella in NYC a year or two ago, in multiple housing high rises, if I remember right.  And, yes, if businesses have been closed, and the condensate pans have not been draining, or sanitized, then legionella is a major concern with reopening.  A little known vector for legionella is shower heads, so if hotels have been closed, or rooms not rented for quite some time, legionella can breed in the shower head.  This is why CDC requires cruise ships to remove and sanitize all shower heads every 6 months.

[Hoopster95]

22 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

 

There was an outbreak of legionella in NYC a year or two ago, in multiple housing high rises, if I remember right.  And, yes, if businesses have been closed, and the condensate pans have not been draining, or sanitized, then legionella is a major concern with reopening.  A little known vector for legionella is shower heads, so if hotels have been closed, or rooms not rented for quite some time, legionella can breed in the shower head.  This is why CDC requires cruise ships to remove and sanitize all shower heads every 6 months.

 

Legionaires on Majesty of the Seas a few short years ago (2016)

 

https://boards.cruisecritic.co.uk/topic/2207286-majesty-hot-tubs/

 

If I remember correctly, there was talk (on this forum?) about plumbing and shower heads being replaced/upgraded?

[Mapleleafforever]

41 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

 

There was an outbreak of legionella in NYC a year or two ago, in multiple housing high rises, if I remember right.  And, yes, if businesses have been closed, and the condensate pans have not been draining, or sanitized, then legionella is a major concern with reopening.  A little known vector for legionella is shower heads, so if hotels have been closed, or rooms not rented for quite some time, legionella can breed in the shower head.  This is why CDC requires cruise ships to remove and sanitize all shower heads every 6 months.

Interesting, I have never even thought of legionella before and probably won't again. Has legionella ever been the reason for a cruise to be quarantined or cancelled?  I ask because Covid has shut down the entire cruise industry for 8 months and still going and may be responsible for ending the existence of Princess Cruises altogether (time will tell). 

[chengkp75]

23 minutes ago, Mapleleafforever said:

Interesting, I have never even thought of legionella before and probably won't again. Has legionella ever been the reason for a cruise to be quarantined or cancelled?  I ask because Covid has shut down the entire cruise industry for 8 months and still going and may be responsible for ending the existence of Princess Cruises altogether (time will tell). 

Legionella is not normally infectious person to person.  It is mainly from infected water in an aerosol condition.  This is one reason that the air jets on ship's hot tubs are disconnected, as the temperature in a hot tub is the prime breeding temperature for legionella, and then you aerosolize it with the air jet, and you sit there and breathe it in.  So, the two diseases are quite different on their infectiousness and their transmission methods, so yes, there was at least one cruise on Majesty that was cancelled due to legionella.

[A&L_Ont]

3 hours ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

When do you think the CDC will accept or reject the general recommendations?  It's been almost a month now.  Don't the cruise lines need to know the answer before proceeding with detailed plans? 

If I remember the plan was submitted on September 21st. I suspect they will take at least a month if not more. 

 

2 hours ago, Milwaukee Eight said:

Only one shows any signs of symptoms. Described as a bad cold. 
 

M8

Glad to hear they are doing well. The “scary” thing is only one was showing symptoms.

[Mapleleafforever]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Legionella is not normally infectious person to person.  It is mainly from infected water in an aerosol condition.  This is one reason that the air jets on ship's hot tubs are disconnected, as the temperature in a hot tub is the prime breeding temperature for legionella, and then you aerosolize it with the air jet, and you sit there and breathe it in.  So, the two diseases are quite different on their infectiousness and their transmission methods, so yes, there was at least one cruise on Majesty that was cancelled due to legionella.

Public hot tubs are nasty, period

[bobmacliberty]

14 hours ago, Mapleleafforever said:

Interesting, I have never even thought of legionella before and probably won't again. Has legionella ever been the reason for a cruise to be quarantined or cancelled?  I ask because Covid has shut down the entire cruise industry for 8 months and still going and may be responsible for ending the existence of Princess Cruises altogether (time will tell). 

 

News may not have made its way to Canada (or maybe you're too young?) but Legionnaire's Disease was big news in 1976 in Philadelphia when 182 American Legion convention attendees (maybe where the name came from?) got sick and 29 died.  It took several months for the CDC to figure out what happened.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Philadelphia_Legionnaires'_disease_outbreak

 

Edit: To the point that I think you're making...not cruise related.

Edited October 15, 2020 by bobmacliberty

[Mapleleafforever]

5 minutes ago, bobmacliberty said:

 

News may not have made its way to Canada (or maybe you're too young?) but Legionnaire's Disease was big news in 1976 in Philadelphia when 182 American Legion convention attendees (maybe where the name came from?) got sick and 29 died.  It took several months for the CDC to figure out what happened.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Philadelphia_Legionnaires'_disease_outbreak

 

Edit: To the point that I think you're making...not cruise related.

I was 2 lol

[bobmacliberty]

The RC Blog YouTube channel posted a video a couple of days ago summarizing protocol changes for the Singapore sailings that are expected to be implemented fleet wide.  Not sure if I'm allowed to link that here.  A little before the 4:00 minute mark, it discusses HVAC changes, including implementing MERV 13 filters for cabins.

[Mapleleafforever]

11 minutes ago, bobmacliberty said:

The RC Blog YouTube channel posted a video a couple of days ago summarizing protocol changes for the Singapore sailings that are expected to be implemented fleet wide.  Not sure if I'm allowed to link that here.  A little before the 4:00 minute mark, it discusses HVAC changes, including implementing MERV 13 filters for cabins.

I believe you are allowed to post such blogs and as I have seen other blogs and vlogs advertised on here.....

Edited October 15, 2020 by Mapleleafforever

[A&L_Ont]

Did we ever find out fro the OP if the crew member has either returned to the ship or has taken further steps towards the return?  Such as booked flights, Covid testing etc?

Edited October 15, 2020 by A&L_Ont

[livingonthebeach]

34 minutes ago, bobmacliberty said:

The RC Blog YouTube channel posted a video a couple of days ago summarizing protocol changes for the Singapore sailings that are expected to be implemented fleet wide.  Not sure if I'm allowed to link that here.  A little before the 4:00 minute mark, it discusses HVAC changes, including implementing MERV 13 filters for cabins.

 

You mean this one?