Meeting with VP and Cruise Industry Happening Today

[Junkhouse]

13 hours ago, LorraineP said:

Maybe numbers went up but the important number is how many hospitalized & how many deaths. I know 4 college students that had it, only symptoms no taste or couldn’t smell. 

Two of my college child’s roommates were asystematic and had to quarantine with them. My child was tested several times and tests came back negative.

[Junkhouse]

There was a sad story about a doctor in Houston that got COVID and was on a ventilator for two months before they died.  It wasn’t revealed until the end of the story that after testing positive they were at home for almost a week before the symptoms worsened and that they had asthma (was on an inhaler). So if anyone has any symptoms and underlying conditions, get tested and insist on starting therapeutics if you have it.

[bouhunter]

10 minutes ago, Junkhouse said:

There was a sad story about a doctor in Houston that got COVID and was on a ventilator for two months before they died.  It wasn’t revealed until the end of the story that after testing positive they were at home for almost a week before the symptoms worsened and that they had asthma (was on an inhaler). So if anyone has any symptoms and underlying conditions, get tested and insist on starting therapeutics if you have it.

This thread is about the meeting between the cruise lines and government officials..............😏

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, danv3 said:

 

If CDC sticks to that, there won't be cruises out of the US for a long time.  

And yet, their own Healthy Sail panel recommends the same thing.

[MommaBear55]

18 hours ago, Joseph2017China said:

Well, you live in PA, which is a state locked down for 7 months, and Florida is a state wide open, and staying pretty flat.  So, the risk will be around for a long time, and it would be up to anyone booking to decide to go or not to go.......I would have no problem going in November 

Florida may be staying "flat", but has the fourth highest number of cases per million compared to other US territories and states, so it's still a lot of cases. 

[Captain Billy Bob]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

And yet, their own Healthy Sail panel recommends the same thing.

 

How is the shipping industry handling Covid?

Are there special precautions for sailors?

I assume freight is still moving so they must be doing something to protect the crew.

It would be informative to see the numbers infected, hospitalized, treated, recovered in that close of an environment.

How is the navy doing with the covid?

Edited October 10, 2020 by Captain Billy Bob

[chengkp75]

8 minutes ago, Captain Billy Bob said:

 

How is the shipping industry handling Covid?

Are there special precautions for sailors?

I assume freight is still moving so they must be doing something to protect the crew.

It would be informative to see the numbers infected, hospitalized, treated, recovered in that close of an environment.

How is the navy doing with the covid?

Each company sets their own action plan, much as the CDC has required for cruise ships.  Yes, we practice quarantine when new crew arrive, we limit interaction with shore personnel, and use masks and distancing when interaction is required.

 

Yes, freight is still moving, in the US, mariners are classified as essential workers, so we don't have any travel restrictions.  But, in much of the world, ports are not allowing crew changes, so there are over 300,000 crew who have become stuck on their ships, and about another 300,000 who cannot get back to their ship.

 

Naturally, getting data from an international industry is difficult, but there have been no reported large number of cases among merchant ship crews.  Our company has had two cases, I believe, here in the US, on vessels that turn their crew over fairly often (about 4-6 weeks), none have been hospitalized and none died, out of a total of about 400 active crew and 400 on vacation.  There have been no reported instances where a ship was stopped due to a majority of crew becoming infected, but there may be isolated instances, particularly around crew change times.  Once we are onboard, we are in our "bubble" and remain there for a few months, so we are actually very protected.

 

I don't know how the Navy is doing, they have their own challenges given the crew size and accommodations, and their mission parameters, but they of course had the major outbreak on the aircraft carrier.

[Bobal]

4 hours ago, bigrednole said:

This is the DUMBEST statement I ever heard. You do realize what is happening here is BECAUSE of someone on an airplane?

 

I love how people have no concept whatsoever of how a virus can be transmitted. And let me tell you, you can ABSOLUTELY be infected on airlines and far more so than on a cruise ship. The reason they don't have statistics on it is because they didn't want to. 

 

Actually there are statistics out there if you google them.

 

There was an an article in a respected UK newspaper (The Daily Telegraph) posted only this week. I won't post the link as it's behind a paywall but have copied and pasted it below:

 

Only '44 cases' of Covid-19 traced back to air travel, report finds

The risk of catching Covid-19 on board a plane is similar to that of being struck by lightning, a top aviation official has claimed.

The CEO of the International Air Travel Association (IATA), Alexandre de Juniac, also insisted that, while flying is not ‘risk-free’, a plane cabin is significantly safer than other indoor environments when it comes to transmission of the virus.

A new study by IATA has found that just 44 cases of potential coronavirus infections have been traced back to flights since the start of 2020, a tiny proportion of the 1.2 billion people who have travelled by air in the same time period.

Of those confirmed cases, the majority were reported early in the year, before the use of face masks by crew and passengers became common practice.

Citing three separate computational fluid dynamics (CFD) tests conducted by aircraft manufacturer Airbus, Boeing and Embraer, the association’s medical researchers have concluded that a number of environmental factors contribute to making viral transmission far less likely in a plane cabin, including High Efficiency Particulate Air filters, the downward flow of air from overhead ventilators, and the natural barriers provided by seats.

Following their respective experiments, both Airbus and Boeing have gone so far as to state that two passengers sitting side by side on board a plane has a comparable transmission risk to two people standing six or seven feet apart in an office.

“There is no single silver-bullet measure that will enable us to live and travel safely in the age of Covid-19,” said Alexandre de Juniac, IATA’s Director General and CEO. 

“But the combination of measures that are being put in place is reassuring travelers the world over that Covid-19 has not defeated their freedom to fly. Nothing is completely risk-free. But with just 44 published cases of potential inflight Covid-19 transmission among 1.2 billion travelers, the risk of contracting the virus on board appears to be in the same category as being struck by lightning.” 

His comments coincide with another report released by aviation analyst OAG, based on a survey of more than 4,000 people, which found that almost 70 per cent of respondents have plans to fly internationally within the next six months.

While 40 per cent of travellers are more concerned about catching the coronavirus in-flight than on any other part of their trip (including at the airport or at their destination), 76 per cent also believe that mandatory use of face masks by passengers and staff is the most effective way to ease fears.

 

 

Edited October 10, 2020 by Bobal

[Tapi]

5 hours ago, bigrednole said:

This is the DUMBEST statement I ever heard. You do realize what is happening here is BECAUSE of someone on an airplane?

bigrednole:

 

It's not a dumb statement whatsoever. By now, an overwhelming amount of data and research has confirmed that flying is safer than most activities on land. As pointed out on a previous post, the environment aboard a pressurized airplane (forced vertical airflow, high grade filtration systems, and air that's replaced every 2-3 minutes) is far cleaner and more sterile than in your own home. 

 

I've been flying on a weekly basis during the entire pandemic, and I'm not only satisfied, but I'm also impressed with all the procedures and protocols in place. Personally, I feel far safer flying than going to my local grocery store. Even with the extensive amount of flying that I've been doing, I have thankfully remained covid free during the entire pandemic. It's not by chance. The safety measures do work. 

 

Concerning your comment concerning that what's happening is because of someone on an airplane: Yes, someone infected had to fly to get here and spread the virus. But there's zero evidence, from that person or from anybody else who has flown sick, that they spread the virus DURING the flight. With all protocols currently in place, statistically the chance of that happening are very low. 

Edited October 10, 2020 by Tapi

[HBE4]

33 minutes ago, Tapi said:

bigrednole:

 

It's not a dumb statement whatsoever. By now, an overwhelming amount of data and research has confirmed that flying is safer than most activities on land. As pointed out on a previous post, the environment aboard a pressurized airplane (forced vertical airflow, high grade filtration systems, and air that's replaced every 2-3 minutes) is far cleaner and more sterile than in your own home. 

 

I've been flying on a weekly basis during the entire pandemic, and I'm not only satisfied, but I'm also impressed with all the procedures and protocols in place. Personally, I feel far safer flying than going to my local grocery store. Even with the extensive amount of flying that I've been doing, I have thankfully remained covid free during the entire pandemic. It's not by chance. The safety measures do work. 

 

Concerning your comment concerning that what's happening is because of someone on an airplane: Yes, someone infected had to fly to get here and spread the virus. But there's zero evidence, from that person or from anybody else who has flown sick, that they spread the virus DURING the flight. With all protocols currently in place, statistically the chance of that happening are very low. 

 

+1. 

[Captain Billy Bob]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

Each company sets their own action plan, much as the CDC has required for cruise ships.  Yes, we practice quarantine when new crew arrive, we limit interaction with shore personnel, and use masks and distancing when interaction is required.

 

Yes, freight is still moving, in the US, mariners are classified as essential workers, so we don't have any travel restrictions.  But, in much of the world, ports are not allowing crew changes, so there are over 300,000 crew who have become stuck on their ships, and about another 300,000 who cannot get back to their ship.

 

Naturally, getting data from an international industry is difficult, but there have been no reported large number of cases among merchant ship crews.  Our company has had two cases, I believe, here in the US, on vessels that turn their crew over fairly often (about 4-6 weeks), none have been hospitalized and none died, out of a total of about 400 active crew and 400 on vacation.  There have been no reported instances where a ship was stopped due to a majority of crew becoming infected, but there may be isolated instances, particularly around crew change times.  Once we are onboard, we are in our "bubble" and remain there for a few months, so we are actually very protected.

 

I don't know how the Navy is doing, they have their own challenges given the crew size and accommodations, and their mission parameters, but they of course had the major outbreak on the aircraft carrier.

 

Thanks for your reply. Ships at sea would seem to me to be the perfect environment to examine the spread and effects of long term close contact. A petri dish at sea. 

[chengkp75]

18 minutes ago, Captain Billy Bob said:

 

Thanks for your reply. Ships at sea would seem to me to be the perfect environment to examine the spread and effects of long term close contact. A petri dish at sea. 

There is a lot less close contact than on a cruise ship.  All crew have single cabins, and there are only 20-30 on the ship, so the only times that people are really close is meal times.  With limited contact outside the "bubble", we tend to be a healthy lot.

[legaljen1969]

20 hours ago, danv3 said:

 

I'm not sure we can replicate what's happening in Germany or Italy in the US right now.  Our infection numbers are multiple times worse.

Yes, and our country is multiple times larger.  What if we took a sampling from an area of our country with a similar size and population to either of these countries?   I would believe the numbers would be equal or probably less.    Considering you can pretty much fit 30 European nations into the borders of the US, I think it's not quite reasonable or fair to compare our outbreak rate to the rate of Italy or Germany. 

 

[chengkp75]

8 minutes ago, legaljen1969 said:

Yes, and our country is multiple times larger.  What if we took a sampling from an area of our country with a similar size and population to either of these countries?   I would believe the numbers would be equal or probably less.    Considering you can pretty much fit 30 European nations into the borders of the US, I think it's not quite reasonable or fair to compare our outbreak rate to the rate of Italy or Germany. 

 

And, yet, the population density, a true metric when dealing with an airborne virus, tells the opposite story.  The EU has an average population density of 300 people per square mile (only 7 states have a higher density), while the US averages 81 people per square mile (only 4 EU nations are lower than this).  With 3.7 times as many people per square mile, it is much harder for Europe to practice social distancing.

[bigrednole]

1 hour ago, Tapi said:

bigrednole:

 

It's not a dumb statement whatsoever. By now, an overwhelming amount of data and research has confirmed that flying is safer than most activities on land. As pointed out on a previous post, the environment aboard a pressurized airplane (forced vertical airflow, high grade filtration systems, and air that's replaced every 2-3 minutes) is far cleaner and more sterile than in your own home. 

 

I've been flying on a weekly basis during the entire pandemic, and I'm not only satisfied, but I'm also impressed with all the procedures and protocols in place. Personally, I feel far safer flying than going to my local grocery store. Even with the extensive amount of flying that I've been doing, I have thankfully remained covid free during the entire pandemic. It's not by chance. The safety measures do work. 

 

Concerning your comment concerning that what's happening is because of someone on an airplane: Yes, someone infected had to fly to get here and spread the virus. But there's zero evidence, from that person or from anybody else who has flown sick, that they spread the virus DURING the flight. With all protocols currently in place, statistically the chance of that happening are very low. 

There is no data on it. There is no testing, no verification, no method to identify people that are flying and where the contracted it. If flying was so safe, now think really hard about this, then how did it get here? If we allowed no one to travel into the country, especially from flights, Covid would not be here. Everything that is here started from someone on a plane. This is what drives me so crazy. People think an airplane is blanket immunity to Covid. if that was the case, shelter everyone in a plane and this never becomes a pandemic. 

[time4u2go]

1 hour ago, Tapi said:

bigrednole:

 

It's not a dumb statement whatsoever. By now, an overwhelming amount of data and research has confirmed that flying is safer than most activities on land. As pointed out on a previous post, the environment aboard a pressurized airplane (forced vertical airflow, high grade filtration systems, and air that's replaced every 2-3 minutes) is far cleaner and more sterile than in your own home. 

 

I've been flying on a weekly basis during the entire pandemic, and I'm not only satisfied, but I'm also impressed with all the procedures and protocols in place. Personally, I feel far safer flying than going to my local grocery store. Even with the extensive amount of flying that I've been doing, I have thankfully remained covid free during the entire pandemic. It's not by chance. The safety measures do work. 

 

Concerning your comment concerning that what's happening is because of someone on an airplane: Yes, someone infected had to fly to get here and spread the virus. But there's zero evidence, from that person or from anybody else who has flown sick, that they spread the virus DURING the flight. With all protocols currently in place, statistically the chance of that happening are very low. 

Well said.  Thank you.

[bigrednole]

1 hour ago, Bobal said:

 

Actually there are statistics out there if you google them.

 

There was an an article in a respected UK newspaper (The Daily Telegraph) posted only this week. I won't post the link as it's behind a paywall but have copied and pasted it below:

 

Only '44 cases' of Covid-19 traced back to air travel, report finds

 

Because there are NO METHODS to track it. When they do, they blame it on other things: they got it going to the bathroom at the airport, they got it on airport shuttle. I GUARANTEE you that you can trace 100% of infections back to Patient Zero that traveled by plane for every case in the US. 

Edited October 10, 2020 by bigrednole

[Iamcruzin]

19 hours ago, voyager70 said:

 

Cases in Germany and Italy are spiking, as well as much of Europe.  They may need to rethink things.

 

Has that been traced back to cruising? There are zip codes here in NY that are spiking because a particular group continues to gather in large groups ignoring social distancing and not wearing masks. This could be happening in Europe as well.

[Baron Barracuda]

6 hours ago, bigrednole said:

This is the DUMBEST statement I ever heard. You do realize what is happening here is BECAUSE of someone on an airplane?

 

I love how people have no concept whatsoever of how a virus can be transmitted. And let me tell you, you can ABSOLUTELY be infected on airlines and far more so than on a cruise ship. The reason they don't have statistics on it is because they didn't want to. 

 

Before embarrassing yourself with rants like this maybe you should check with those who actually fly for a living.  No one is more at risk than flight attendants.  See no sign of panic or alarm from them or their very powerful union (AFA).  Airline workers actually have lower covid rate than the general population.  Sadly can't say that about cruise lines.

 

 https://www.businessinsider.com/airline-workers-covid-rates-is-flying-safe-2020-9 

[Iamcruzin]

19 hours ago, Sunshine3601 said:

   Hey I'm ready to get on a cruise ship tomorrow if I could.   I have no problem following the protocols they will put in place.     

I'm not worried about people in our area or the northeast who have been functioning while following protocols. I'm worried about the groups who still don't accept this to be real and just do as they please without regard for others.  

[dswallow]

It's a far more complex situation to examine than just a single statistic or loose "investigation" from the potentially biased IATA. But in the scheme of air travel in the US, there are far, far fewer people traveling now, too. And the claim comparing cruise travel restrictions to the lack of them on air travel (or more accurately allowing airlines to decide everything) still has air travel happening now occurring WITH masks, WITH some general concern over keeping distance, and MINIMIZING what used to be routine contact, especially with flight attendants. So what you really want to look at is transmission that occurred BEFORE these measures went into place, and BEFORE the number of travelers dropped to 10% of what it used to be.

We do know some things now, though, and there are a lot of studies going on about aerosol transmission and movement through air handling systems in confined areas such as airplanes and through systems recirculating and through systems using fresh outside air, so the environment for potential spread in places that are addressing these issues is also completely different than what it was before.

But I think it's certainly time to be permitting these businesses to try to actually address this problem, just like almost every other business in the country is and has been permitted to do for many months. Nobody's asking them to immediately go back to normal like it was before. But putting into practice many of the ideas they have come up with is an important next step. 

I think the US should be suspending any and all restrictions concerning cruises to nowhere as part of this next step. Nobody's building cruise ships in the US, and nobody's gonna staff them with people who all have higher-level work visas are are US citizens/residents. Suspending these archaic rules for the time being will not harm industry, it will help industry -- an industry that is a significant driver of employment in the US.

[danv3]

1 hour ago, legaljen1969 said:

Yes, and our country is multiple times larger.  What if we took a sampling from an area of our country with a similar size and population to either of these countries?   I would believe the numbers would be equal or probably less.    Considering you can pretty much fit 30 European nations into the borders of the US, I think it's not quite reasonable or fair to compare our outbreak rate to the rate of Italy or Germany. 

 

 

You have to look at rates per 1,000...we in the US are doing significantly worse than Europe (even with Europe's rising case numbers).

[Bobal]

1 hour ago, bigrednole said:

Because there are NO METHODS to track it. When they do, they blame it on other things: they got it going to the bathroom at the airport, they got it on airport shuttle. I GUARANTEE you that you can trace 100% of infections back to Patient Zero that traveled by plane for every case in the US. 

 

Errrm well thanks for your input. You do realise that capitalising words doesn't make you an authority, and nor does a GUARANTEE from someone who's just a keyboard warrior. Anyway no doubt we'll continue hearing from you 🙄

[Tapi]

1 hour ago, bigrednole said:

If flying was so safe, now think really hard about this, then how did it get here?

bigrednole:

 

As mentioned before, the person(s) that introduced covid to the USA most likely arrived by airplane. I'm not disputing that. But that's a different discussion than saying that people get infected while flying.  Two different discussions. What you're saying is the equivalent of saying that riding a bicycle isn't safe if the person that brought covid to the USA rode a bicycle here. 

1 hour ago, bigrednole said:

There is no data on it. There is no testing, no verification, no method to identify people that are flying and where the contracted it.

 

People think an airplane is blanket immunity to Covid. 

Dude, this is what I do for a living. The data is there, the studies are there, the tracing is there, the research is there. I think I know what I'm talking about. 

Edited October 10, 2020 by Tapi

[time4u2go]

5 minutes ago, Tapi said:

As mentioned before, the person(s) that introduced covid to the USA most likely arrived by airplane. I'm not disputing that. But that's a different discussion than saying that people get infected while flying.  Two different discussions. What you're saying is the equivalent of saying that riding a bicycle isn't safe if the person that brought covid to the USA rode a bicycle here. 

I was trying to figure out a good way to say this exact same thing but you did a great job of it. Thank you!