Mandatory vaccination

[RocketMan275]

1 hour ago, HarpHarp said:

Nope, plenty of blame to go around.  Viruses only know one thing-infect or cease to exist. They don't know borders, political party or age. We needed to clamp down hard February 2020 and didn't. 
We slow walked the testing, had travel restrictions with holes you could drive a cargo ship from China through, and have governors enact toothless quarantines for out of state visitors.When you have 25% of the population infected it's almost impossible to control.

Vaccines may save us if enough people get it.

Where's your evidence that 20 visitors to Florida caused the outbreak in Ohio?

BTW, if this is impossible to control, why are we engaged in masking, social distancing, etc.?

[HarpHarp]

26 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Where's your evidence that 20 visitors to Florida caused the outbreak in Ohio?

BTW, if this is impossible to control, why are we engaged in masking, social distancing, etc.?

It was covered enough last  March. There was also a case of a large group that visited Myrtle Beach that came back to Ohio infected a couple of weeks later.

Did you miss my qualifier "Almost". Every time we start making progress, people start to slack off, we have a plateau and another surge. If many of us hadn't done masking & social distancing, we could have been looking at 2-3 million deaths here. What I really don't understand is why FL where the economy is so driven by travel & tourism, didn't jump on this immediately. Each infected person, on average infects 4 others.  As you said, one infected visitor from NY MI, or Brazil can cause epidemic conditions in any area. At least it's not as contagious as measles.

[RocketMan275]

1 hour ago, HarpHarp said:

It was covered enough last  March. There was also a case of a large group that visited Myrtle Beach that came back to Ohio infected a couple of weeks later.

Did you miss my qualifier "Almost". Every time we start making progress, people start to slack off, we have a plateau and another surge. If many of us hadn't done masking & social distancing, we could have been looking at 2-3 million deaths here. What I really don't understand is why FL where the economy is so driven by travel & tourism, didn't jump on this immediately. Each infected person, on average infects 4 others.  As you said, one infected visitor from NY MI, or Brazil can cause epidemic conditions in any area. At least it's not as contagious as measles.

Three points.

First,  you have only provided weak hearsay evidence of your allegation that 20 students caused vacationing in Florida caused this outbreak.  

Two, do  you have any evidence that masking, etc., saved millions?

Three, what evidence is there that one person infects four others? 

[asctony]

1 hour ago, RocketMan275 said:

Three points.

First,  you have only provided weak hearsay evidence of your allegation that 20 students caused vacationing in Florida caused this outbreak.  

Two, do  you have any evidence that masking, etc., saved millions?

Three, what evidence is there that one person infects four others? 

What evidence do you have to disprove any of this? 

LOL

[HarpHarp]

1 hour ago, RocketMan275 said:

Three points.

First,  you have only provided weak hearsay evidence of your allegation that 20 students caused vacationing in Florida caused this outbreak.  

Two, do  you have any evidence that masking, etc., saved millions?

Three, what evidence is there that one person infects four others? 

Here is an explanation of R/O or infection rate. Its is variable, mostly between 2 and 6, hence my number of 4 which most epidemiologists have been using. Measles by comparison is about 25
ht/tps:/www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/05/covid-19-what-is-the-r-number/
 One of many articles on masks, and of course it's common sense, the fewer people who gather, the less likely to have an infected person.
https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/10.1377/hlthaff.2020.00818
 

Sping break cases
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/24/us/coronavirus-brady-sluder-spring-break.html

https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/ohio-teens-test-positive-for-covid19-afterr-trip-to-myrtle1f55aab6-91a5-4d83-bd4b-95e8c810fca1-beach/95-
That said , I'm sone. I'm retired now & don't get paid for this any more🙄

[BermudaBound2014]

3 hours ago, graphicguy said:

  Not fluid.

 

 

I can't tell if you are joking or serious. 

 

In response to current Covid responses you stated: "We know what works and we know what doesn't"

 

I reiterate: You are wrong. We are still learning everyday. We are miles away from knowing what works and what doesn't. What works today may  be changed tomorrow. The situation is very fluid as scientists continue to deepen their understanding of the virus.

 

A few examples of Covid response changes that have happened within the last day or two:

 

- Colorado and Georgia vaccine sites temporarily closed yesterday due to reactions to Janssen vaccine (ie, we are still learning and shut down the site to be extra safe; the situation is fluid)

 

- The UK advises against astraZeneca for those under 30 due to blood clotting (ie, we are still learning what is causing blood clots in those under 30; the situation is fluid)

AstraZeneca alternative for under-30s as EMA identifies blood clot link (thenewdaily.com.au) 

 

-New Zealand will only administer Pfizer because it has not yet approved other vaccines (ie: we are still learning about AZ and J&J; the situation is fluid)

New Zealand says it will only use Pfizer vaccine for ‘fairness’ | The Independent

 

-Just yesterday, the CDC changed it's recommendations for how to disinfect surfaces (ie, we are still learning about how Covid spreads; the situation is fluid)

CDC Changes COVID Guidelines For Disinfecting Homes And Surfaces (msn.com)

 

- As you know, the CDC reduced the quarantine requirements to 10 days several weeks ago, but Michigan just increased the quarantine requirement to 14 days again yesterday (ie; we are still learning and we think 10 days is too little of time to quarantine; the situation is fluid)

Michigan Extends Quarantine Requirement To 14 Days – CBS Detroit (cbslocal.com)

 

- New York announces changes to school closure policies as they respond to covid positive cases (ie; we are still learning and we think we can move to 4 pupils per classroom to quarantine; the situation is fluid)

New York City Debuts New Coronavirus School Closure Policy as Variants Stoke Anxiety – NBC New York

-

-Pfizer is requesting approval of vaccines for those 12-15 (ie; we are still learning how to vaccinate the young but we think we have it now; the situation is fluid)

Pfizer Asks FDA to Expand COVID Vaccine Authorization for Ages 12-15 – NBC New York

 

- 5 new cases of a double mutant have been found in California. "It is not yet known if it is more resistant to vaccines" (ie; this one is new, we think we are ok but we need time to figure it out; the situation is fluid)

‘Double Mutant’ Coronavirus Variant Detected in US for First Time | Physician's Weekly

 

Those are just a few examples from the last two days. I haven't even touched upon the CDC's changing guidelines over the last year as they discovered new information.  

 

My point again; we do not yet know what works and what doesn't as you claimed. We absolutely have a much better idea than we did last year, but we have MUCH yet to learn. The situation is fluid.

 

 

[IrieBajan54]

Looking good for parents with kids. Pfizer has requested emergency authorization from the FDA for ages 12 -15 for the vaccine. As the weeks and months go by, every age will eventually be eligible. Any excuse after that is just an excuse.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/09/health/us-coronavirus-friday/index.html

Edited April 9, 2021 by IrieBajan54
correction

[winterbliss]

3 minutes ago, IrieBajan54 said:

Looking good for parents with kids. Pfizer has requested emergency authorization from the FDA for ages 12 -15 for the vaccine. As the weeks and months go by, every age will eventually be eligible. Any excuse after that is the individual's fault.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/09/health/us-coronavirus-friday/index.html

If this is accurate, I hope parents think long and hard...I don't care how blunt I sound at this point.... consider what you will be consenting to!!

[coffeebean]

5 hours ago, Goldconnection said:

Different time for “WHAT”?

• For trusting our government
• For trusting the science that has provided vaccines that will save lives globally
• For the invaluable information and education that is available about these mRNA vaccines from reliable sources
• For dealing with a global pandemic that is primed to reek havoc on our global economy if we don't do something to stop this virus
• For trusting the current vaccines to be safe for human consumption

[coffeebean]

25 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

I can't tell if you are joking or serious. 

 

In response to current Covid responses you stated: "We know what works and we know what doesn't"

 

I reiterate: You are wrong. We are still learning everyday. We are miles away from knowing what works and what doesn't. What works today may  be changed tomorrow. The situation is very fluid as scientists continue to deepen their understanding of the virus.

 

A few examples of Covid response changes that have happened within the last day or two:

 

- Colorado and Georgia vaccine sites temporarily closed yesterday due to reactions to Janssen vaccine (ie, we are still learning and shut down the site to be extra safe; the situation is fluid)

 

- The UK advises against astraZeneca for those under 30 due to blood clotting (ie, we are still learning what is causing blood clots in those under 30; the situation is fluid)

AstraZeneca alternative for under-30s as EMA identifies blood clot link (thenewdaily.com.au) 

 

-New Zealand will only administer Pfizer because it has not yet approved other vaccines (ie: we are still learning about AZ and J&J; the situation is fluid)

New Zealand says it will only use Pfizer vaccine for ‘fairness’ | The Independent

 

-Just yesterday, the CDC changed it's recommendations for how to disinfect surfaces (ie, we are still learning about how Covid spreads; the situation is fluid)

CDC Changes COVID Guidelines For Disinfecting Homes And Surfaces (msn.com)

 

- As you know, the CDC reduced the quarantine requirements to 10 days several weeks ago, but Michigan just increased the quarantine requirement to 14 days again yesterday (ie; we are still learning and we think 10 days is too little of time to quarantine; the situation is fluid)

Michigan Extends Quarantine Requirement To 14 Days – CBS Detroit (cbslocal.com)

 

- New York announces changes to school closure policies as they respond to covid positive cases (ie; we are still learning and we think we can move to 4 pupils per classroom to quarantine; the situation is fluid)

New York City Debuts New Coronavirus School Closure Policy as Variants Stoke Anxiety – NBC New York

-

-Pfizer is requesting approval of vaccines for those 12-15 (ie; we are still learning how to vaccinate the young but we think we have it now; the situation is fluid)

Pfizer Asks FDA to Expand COVID Vaccine Authorization for Ages 12-15 – NBC New York

 

- 5 new cases of a double mutant have been found in California. "It is not yet known if it is more resistant to vaccines" (ie; this one is new, we think we are ok but we need time to figure it out; the situation is fluid)

‘Double Mutant’ Coronavirus Variant Detected in US for First Time | Physician's Weekly

 

Those are just a few examples from the last two days. I haven't even touched upon the CDC's changing guidelines over the last year as they discovered new information.  

 

My point again; we do not yet know what works and what doesn't as you claimed. We absolutely have a much better idea than we did last year, but we have MUCH yet to learn. The situation is fluid.

 

 

Points very well taken. I would like to repost your response and direct it to the poster who refers to Dr. Fauci as "Dr. Flip Flop". That poster just doesn't get it that the science evolves daily in many cases in trying to understand this virus and how to combat this invisible enemy.

[coffeebean]

26 minutes ago, IrieBajan54 said:

Looking good for parents with kids. Pfizer has requested emergency authorization from the FDA for ages 12 -15 for the vaccine. As the weeks and months go by, every age will eventually be eligible. Any excuse after that is just an excuse.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/09/health/us-coronavirus-friday/index.html

Just wondering........how many of the parents on this forum are willing to vaccinate their children?

[RocketMan275]

41 minutes ago, HarpHarp said:

Here is an explanation of R/O or infection rate. Its is variable, mostly between 2 and 6, hence my number of 4 which most epidemiologists have been using. Measles by comparison is about 25
ht/tps:/www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/05/covid-19-what-is-the-r-number/
 One of many articles on masks, and of course it's common sense, the fewer people who gather, the less likely to have an infected person.
https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/10.1377/hlthaff.2020.00818
 

Sping break cases
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/24/us/coronavirus-brady-sluder-spring-break.html

https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/ohio-teens-test-positive-for-covid19-afterr-trip-to-myrtle1f55aab6-91a5-4d83-bd4b-95e8c810fca1-beach/95-
That said , I'm sone. I'm retired now & don't get paid for this any more🙄

Your NYT articles says nothing about any of those attending spring break becoming infected or infecting others.  That's contrary to your allegations that 20 spring breakers in Miami were responsible for the outbreak.  

 

FWIW, there are many other articles that allege that masking is unlikely to reduce infections and may in fact be counter-productive.  Florida is constantly attacked for relaxing COVID mitigation protocols but does no worse and often better than states the strictly enforced those protocols.   Surely, that raises the question of whether those protocols are effective or justified.

[graphicguy]

Spin it any way you want.  The COVID vaccines work.  They are going to be required to sail on NCL.

 

Get the vaccine or don't.  Doesn't matter to me because if you don't, you won't be on a ship with me.

 

Just changed my booking from the Bliss in December out of LA to the Joy in September out of Jamaica.  I'm vaccinated and ready to go.

[BermudaBound2014]

1 minute ago, graphicguy said:

Spin it any way you want.  The COVID vaccines work.  They are going to be required to sail on NCL.

 

Get the vaccine or don't.  Doesn't matter to me because if you don't, you won't be on a ship with me.

 

Just changed my booking from the Bliss in December out of LA to the Joy in September out of Jamaica.  I'm vaccinated and ready to go.

 

I'm glad you are able to cruise, sincerely and I'll be thrilled to read your trip report.

 

But since when is providing facts a spin?

 

However; if you NEED to believe that "we know what works and we know what doesn't" I can understand. I fully acknowledge that the media has done a solid job attacking our mental health.

[complawyer]

31 minutes ago, coffeebean said:

Just wondering........how many of the parents on this forum are willing to vaccinate their children?

while both my children are now grown and adults, if in fact i had minor children, i would not hesitate to vaccinate them in a heartbeat

[Navis]

1 hour ago, RocketMan275 said:

Your NYT articles says nothing about any of those attending spring break becoming infected or infecting others.  That's contrary to your allegations that 20 spring breakers in Miami were responsible for the outbreak.  

 

FWIW, there are many other articles that allege that masking is unlikely to reduce infections and may in fact be counter-productive.  Florida is constantly attacked for relaxing COVID mitigation protocols but does no worse and often better than states the strictly enforced those protocols.   Surely, that raises the question of whether those protocols are effective or justified.

Seriously? No reputable study has found that masks are either unlikely to reduce or be counted-productive. That’s just spreading misinformation.

 

As for FL, consistently in the top 5 for cases and just set a daily record for cases two days ago. ... yeah, they’re killing it. SMH

Edited April 9, 2021 by Navis

[RocketMan275]

23 minutes ago, Navis said:

Seriously? No reputable study has found that masks are either unlikely to reduce or be counted-productive. That’s just spreading misinformation.

 

As for FL, consistently in the top 5 for cases and just set a daily record for cases two days ago. ... yeah, they’re killing it. SMH

If masks are so effective in preventing infections, then Florida should have far more infections than MI, PA, NY, and NJ which isn't the case.  And, the other states in the top five are consistently states with strict lockdowns, masking mandates, closed restaurants, etc., why aren't their infection rates far lower than Florida?  And, yes, there are studies that show that masks are ineffective.  Reputable studies.  Do some research.

[JCDCA]

11 hours ago, winterbliss said:

If this is accurate, I hope parents think long and hard...I don't care how blunt I sound at this point.... consider what you will be consenting to!!

Almost like when you (hopefully) vaccinate your kids for polio, MMR and measles before sending them to school (and then provide evidence!).

[pmd98052]

Good grief why does FL have lower numbers of infections versus some other states? Might be something to do with those other states having major population centres and the density involved with those versus Florida! Hell NJ as a state has 1.200 people per mile versus 410 per sq mile in FL!

 

New York City has 27,000 per square mile! Even Miami Beach (only city in FL with a high density) only has 11,000 people per sq mile.

 

would I give my kids the vaccine? ABSOLUTELY!! I just don’t get thinking behind people who are still arguing masks are not needed. It’s pure lunacy!

Edited April 10, 2021 by pmd98052

[winterbliss]

5 hours ago, JCDCA said:

Almost like when you (hopefully) vaccinate your kids for polio, MMR and measles before sending them to school (and then provide evidence!).

You obviously feel that this is a comparable situation. I don't for obvious reasons.

[harkinmr]

14 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

If masks are so effective in preventing infections, then Florida should have far more infections than MI, PA, NY, and NJ which isn't the case.  And, the other states in the top five are consistently states with strict lockdowns, masking mandates, closed restaurants, etc., why aren't their infection rates far lower than Florida?  And, yes, there are studies that show that masks are ineffective.  Reputable studies.  Do some research.

It's quite simple.  I live in Florida and in my county there is an adherence to health protocols like mask wearing and social distancing by the vast majority of residents, despite the fact that we have no mask mandate and the Governor fully opened our state last summer.  Most restaurants have masked waitstaff and social distancing and retail/grocery stores require masks.  I would not patronize any business that did otherwise.  Yes, there are pockets where there is a disregard for protocols which is where our high infection rates are coming from, not to mention that we are the number 1 state for UK variant and in the top 5 states for overall cases.  Now that's something to be proud of! 🙄   It would seem that, notwithstanding the Governor's desires to throw caution to the wind, common sense has prevailed.

[RocketMan275]

58 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

It's quite simple.  I live in Florida and in my county there is an adherence to health protocols like mask wearing and social distancing by the vast majority of residents, despite the fact that we have no mask mandate and the Governor fully opened our state last summer.  Most restaurants have masked waitstaff and social distancing and retail/grocery stores require masks.  I would not patronize any business that did otherwise.  Yes, there are pockets where there is a disregard for protocols which is where our high infection rates are coming from, not to mention that we are the number 1 state for UK variant and in the top 5 states for overall cases.  Now that's something to be proud of! 🙄   It would seem that, notwithstanding the Governor's desires to throw caution to the wind, common sense has prevailed.

If 'common sense' is so effective, how does one explain why MI, NJ, RI, NY, PA, MN, DE, NH, CT, and MA all have higher rates per thousand than does FL?  Data from NYT.

FWIW, I intend to avoid, to the best possible extent, any business that requires masking.  It's obvious masking, social distancing, etc., are ineffective and only provide an illusion of safety.  If those protocols were effective, then FL would have the highest rates of infection. Yet they're not in the top ten.

[agrimm01]

As Dr. Fauci said, you don't need to wear masks.  They don't provide protection.  Three months later, everybody should be wearing masks.  They provide great protection.  Sometimes wear two.

Science doesn't change.  Only our interpretation of it changes.

[harkinmr]

1 hour ago, agrimm01 said:

As Dr. Fauci said, you don't need to wear masks.  They don't provide protection.  Three months later, everybody should be wearing masks.  They provide great protection.  Sometimes wear two.

Science doesn't change.  Only our interpretation of it changes.

Nah.  But the science does change based on our knowledge of the virus.  And Dr. Fauci never said that masks do not provide protection.  His comment on masks came at a point where we were struggling with providing PPE to hospitals and health care workers and we did not need the US population running out to horde N95 masks, which surely would have happened given how a lot of people acted at the beginning of this tragedy.   In addition, we were still learning about how the virus was transmitted and by whom.  Everything is 20/20 hindsight isn't it?  But let's keep beating on Dr. Fauci and the CDC.  How about instead we beat on those responsible for our overall pathetic response to this crisis.  Oh wait...

Edited April 10, 2021 by harkinmr

[Host CMLA]

20 hours ago, coffeebean said:

Just wondering........how many of the parents on this forum are willing to vaccinate their children?

 

HI there.  We aren't going to vaccinate our kids until or if there is an approved vaccine with long term data to outline all the possible side effects and long term possibilities.  We're not anti vax but these are my kids.  I'm not willing to have them get an emergency use vax when kids are not effected as much.  That does mean we won't go places that require a vaccine and that's the price we will pay.  My kids are 12 and 15.  When they're 18 they can decide for themselves.  The vaccines that are available today are authorized for emergency use only.  Based on the data, I don't think it's an emergency for my kids to get the vaccine.  My kids have been in school full time in person since August 24, 2020.  My older son played high school football last Fall around 100 other kids in close quarters during games and workouts without a single case of C19.  Kids are less likely to get C19 and even less likely to spread it.  It's not an emergency for my kids to get the vaccine.  That's my position on it.  I don't claim to know any more than anyone else.