vaccine required?

[Steelers36]

2 hours ago, nocl said:

There were discussions, reported by news articles around that time.  In the early days there was not good tests.  Thus the bans.  However, the bans seemed to be more aimed at punishing countries by the last administration then truly an infection prevention measure.  When tests became available the past administration message was that there was too much testing so unlikely the CDC could put a test requirement in place.  Note that after the election the international flight test requirement was put into place.  You also saw the mask requirement made into a mandated activity, instead of being an airline directed requirement.

 

I expect that if the administration had been different there would have been additional actions taken at various times concerning both international and interstate domestic travel.

Please explain how/why the early China and later Europe travel bans were "punishing" countries as opposed to reducing travel from high-impact zones with Covid-19 cases?

[Steelers36]

58 minutes ago, NSWP said:

Exactly, the cruise lines might lead us to believe all crew have been vaccinated, but we will never know for sure.

They also lead us to believe all crew members are appropriately trained and we take them at their word.  Don't we?  I do.  Same as when I board a plane, I take it for granted that the crew are all properly trained and certified.

[Steelers36]

2 hours ago, harkinmr said:

Right now, thanks to the current administration, anyone returning to the US must at least be tested. 

The CDC order for negative test max 3 days before flying was issued prior to Inauguration Day.  Sure, it ought to have come sooner can be argued, but just stating a fact.

Edited April 10, 2021 by Steelers36

[Steelers36]

1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

The reason people get there early, at least for European cruises, is that their flights from the USA arrive early in the morning. (It's also a problem when coming for land travel or a day early for a cruise for the US traveler as their hotel room is generally not ready until well into the afternoon.)

Lots of people like to start their cruise ASAP on embarkation day.  I am one of those.  Sometimes, a Sanctuary booking is desired or other activities that book up quickly.

[harkinmr]

1 minute ago, Steelers36 said:

The CDC order for negative test max 3 days before flying was issued prior to Inauguration Day.  Sure, it ought to have come sooner can be argued, but just stating a fact.

And it was lifted by the prior administration and reinstated by the current one.  One would wonder why it would be lifted, but then again...

[Steelers36]

4 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

And it was lifted by the prior administration and reinstated by the current one.  One would wonder why it would be lifted, but then again...

Are you suggesting the CDC order of JAN 12, 2021 was rescinded by the WH, just days before Biden took over?

I am not seeing that.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/travelers/testing-international-air-travelers.html

Edited April 10, 2021 by Steelers36

[Steelers36]

4 hours ago, Daniel A said:

See also 2020 news article: "Epidemiologists contend the U.S. outbreak was driven overwhelmingly by viral strains from Europe rather than China. More than 1.8 million travelers entered the United States from Europe in February alone as that continent became the center of the pandemic.

Okay, but how did it get to Europe?  Same source - China!!  

The East coast and NYC area got it mostly from Europe and West coast was mostly from Asia I have read in the past.

 

[nocl]

12 minutes ago, Steelers36 said:

Please explain how/why the early China and later Europe travel bans were "punishing" countries as opposed to reducing travel from high-impact zones with Covid-19 cases?

When and how the bans were put into place followed disagreements.  I will dig up the stories from that period.  There was a disagreement that made the news with France and Germany, the ban was put on a few days later, but not for the UK who actually had a higher case count.

Also they applied to foreign nationals, but the flights continued, citizens and residents could come in without checks.  Ban with China, but not Hong Kong yet at the time there were cases in China.

 

If the bans were intended to stop infection they were 1. poorly targeted  and 2. as leaky as a screen door in a submarine. This coupled with the timing with new worthy events is why they seemed to be more aimed as punishment than as an effective quarantine measure.

 

Later there were additions including the UK that were more in line with infections.  The ironic thing is that many countries with high levels of infection were never banned. In many cases travel was blocked because the countries on the other end blocked travel from the US.

 

The following is the full list,

 

The suspension of entry for foreign nationals currently applied to physical presence in the following countries: China (excluding Hong Kong and Macau), Iran, Brazil, the United Kingdom, Ireland, and the Schengen area of Europe comprising Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland.

[harkinmr]

24 minutes ago, Steelers36 said:

Are you suggesting the CDC order of JAN 12, 2021 was rescinded by the WH, just days before Biden took over?

I am not seeing that.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/travelers/testing-international-air-travelers.html

You are right. I stand corrected. The CDC put the testing order in place on January 12th.  The Trump administration then lifted the ban on travel for non-US citizens from the UK, most countries in the EU, Brazil and South Africa to be effective January 26th.  That ban was reinstated by the Biden administration.  

 

EDIT:  When Biden reinstated the ban on non-US citizen travel to the US, that was when the testing requirement was expanded to US citizens flying in from other countries.

Edited April 10, 2021 by harkinmr

[Steelers36]

1 minute ago, nocl said:

When and how the bans were put into place followed disagreements.  I will dig up the stories from that period.  There was a disagreement that made the news with France and Germany, the ban was put on a few days later, but not for the UK who actually had a higher case count.

Also they applied to foreign nationals, but the flights continued, citizens and residents could come in without checks.  Ban with China, but not Hong Kong yet at the time there were cases in China.

 

If the bans were intended to stop infection they were 1. poorly targeted  and 2. as leaky as a screen door in a submarine. This coupled with the timing with new worthy events is why they seemed to be more aimed as punishment than as an effective quarantine measure.

 

Later there were additions including the UK that were more in line with infections.  The ironic thing is that many countries with high levels of infection were never banned. In many cases travel was blocked because the countries on the other end blocked travel from the US.

 

The following is the full list,

 

The suspension of entry for foreign nationals currently applied to physical presence in the following countries: China (excluding Hong Kong and Macau), Iran, Brazil, the United Kingdom, Ireland, and the Schengen area of Europe comprising Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland.

I imagine one day there will be a tomb of analysis on the history of the pandemic - hopefully straight up and not full of political bias.  I think in the early days, there was hesitancy to slap travel bans all over where cases were perceived to be low.  Countries like South Korea, Taiwan, Australia, NZ come to mind that really jumped hard early and prevented wide-spread infections.

 

I imagine many so-called Western countries might have saved themselves a lot of grief if they had implemented more severe measures early - almost as if seeing in a crystal ball - but the tendencies in highly democratic nations are to not trample on individual rights unless really necessary and I suspect that caused some delay.

 

I don't claim any expertise on the precise timeline and situations at decision points, but suffice to say that there were multiple voices early on who were damping down the alarms.  And when some actions were taken, there were folks, including politicians, who objected.  Why?  Well, the nature of any party not in power is to object or disagree with the party in power.  I'll just leave it at that.

 

[nocl]

57 minutes ago, Steelers36 said:

They also lead us to believe all crew members are appropriately trained and we take them at their word.  Don't we?  I do.  Same as when I board a plane, I take it for granted that the crew are all properly trained and certified.

There is also a regulatory authority that makes sure that aircraft crews are trained and certified on the aircraft.

 

With the cruise line if there is no regulatory oversight, who knows for sure..

[D C]

6 minutes ago, nocl said:

There is also a regulatory authority that makes sure that aircraft crews are trained and certified on the aircraft.

 

With the cruise line if there is no regulatory oversight, who knows for sure..

You're supposing that the captain and crew don't know what they're doing? As if there are ZERO qualifications required to captain a cruise ship? 

[nocl]

2 minutes ago, D C said:

You're supposing that the captain and crew don't know what they're doing? As if there are ZERO qualifications required to captain a cruise ship? 

No the discussion was not about the maritime qualifications of the crew, for which there is regulatory authorities.  The discussion was about if one could be sure that all of the crew was vaccinated.

[D C]

13 minutes ago, nocl said:

No the discussion was not about the maritime qualifications of the crew, for which there is regulatory authorities.  The discussion was about if one could be sure that all of the crew was vaccinated.

Ahhh... so despite the qualifications they're dishonest.  Gotcha. 

 

I assume that you've put your well-being in the hands of these ne'er-do-wells in the past, no? How did that go? 

[nocl]

1 hour ago, D C said:

Ahhh... so despite the qualifications they're dishonest.  Gotcha. 

 

I assume that you've put your well-being in the hands of these ne'er-do-wells in the past, no? How did that go? 

I hate to tell you but the maritime crew members do not make policy.  It is not part of their job description.  They run the ship.  The rules about who boards and if the crew must be vaccinated that comes from HQ.  So yes they are very qualified to operate the ships, but they do not direct policy.  

 

I have seen several times where cruise lines have been dishonest.  Such as when they were telling their crew that CDC  was not letting them offload through the US while at the same time they were refusing to sign the paperwork that would enable it.

 

The environmental violations are another case.

 

I am quite sure most people on this board that have cruised a lot have also seen things where a cruise line says one thing, but works around it when that becomes inconvenient. 

 

In the case of vaccinations there is no oversight.  If they need a couple of crew members on board and they are not vaccinated who will know.  If an officers family is onboard and the children are not vaccinated will they say no exceptions or let it slide.  If a VIP wants to sail but is not vaccinated, that is ok no one will know.

 

The only thing that we will know is that they say the crew is vaccinated, that all of the passengers are vaccinated, but there is no one looking over there shoulders, no one they have to report to, so if they need an exception what is there to stop them.

 

For that matter the early cruises will apparently be fully vaccinated, but what if they decide to change the policy.  Nothing to stop them other than PR.  Very possible one might book a cruise for early 2022 expecting it to be fully vaccinated only to find out that the cruise line decided it was not longer necessary. Without regulatory oversight any changes are totally their decision.

Edited April 10, 2021 by nocl

[caribill]

12 hours ago, ontheweb said:

I also wonder about the reasoning behind that requirement. Nothing similar is required for airplanes and airports.

 

Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg said Friday "Airlines have one safety profile, cruise ships have another."

[caribill]

16 hours ago, Daniel A said:

 

to ensure disembarking and embarking travelers from different ships do not occupy the same enclosed or semi-enclosed areas (e.g., gangways, terminal waiting spaces, check-in areas) within the same 12-hour period."

 

 

 

So, if different parts of the terminal are used and different gangways are used, then embarking passengers could board the ship with timing as in the past. Once on board, there seems to be no problem that disembarking passengers may have been on the ship in the same ship areas only a short while ago.

[NSWP]

8 hours ago, harkinmr said:

That is not true.  Flights from Europe were restricted for some time.  And, at least since January of this year, anyone coming into the US on an international flight must have a negative PCR test.

Surely passengers arriving into the USA, US citizens or not have to go into managed hotel quarantine for 14 days? (Like Australia has been doing for almost a year.) So pre January, going back to pandemic starting in March last year, people could just fly into the USA from anywhere with no covid test? That seems like an acute lack of responsibility and care, with all due respect I can see why Covid is out of control in USA with like near 80,000 positive cases on Thursday. 

 

Stay safe, it's a jungle out there.

[caribill]

51 minutes ago, NSWP said:

So pre January, going back to pandemic starting in March last year, people could just fly into the USA from anywhere with no covid test? That seems like an acute lack of responsibility and care, with all due respect I can see why Covid is out of control in USA with like near 80,000 positive cases on Thursday. 

 

 

 

 

Correct.

 

And now that many people are getting a vaccine, they still need to have the covid test when flying into the USA.

[harkinmr]

9 hours ago, NSWP said:

Surely passengers arriving into the USA, US citizens or not have to go into managed hotel quarantine for 14 days? (Like Australia has been doing for almost a year.) So pre January, going back to pandemic starting in March last year, people could just fly into the USA from anywhere with no covid test? That seems like an acute lack of responsibility and care, with all due respect I can see why Covid is out of control in USA with like near 80,000 positive cases on Thursday. 

 

Stay safe, it's a jungle out there.

We don't have mandated quarantine in too many states, never did.  And when there were mandates they really weren't enforced.  We're not big on taking orders (or even suggestions) from the Government in this country; you know "freedom and liberty" and all. 🙄   And, yes, a lot of what was done/not done in the US during this tragic episode exhibits an "acute lack of responsibility and care", as you so well state.

[nocl]

17 hours ago, caribill said:

 

So, if different parts of the terminal are used and different gangways are used, then embarking passengers could board the ship with timing as in the past. Once on board, there seems to be no problem that disembarking passengers may have been on the ship in the same ship areas only a short while ago.

Note this document deals with the agreement with the port so it addresses the port facilities. It does not address shipboard requirements.

 

You may see a similar restriction dealing with the time between departures and boarding the new cruise passengers when it actually comes to shipboard requirements.

[Pizzasteve]

On 4/6/2021 at 7:16 AM, Daniel A said:

Also from the same article, "Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, told CNN in early March that the U.S. shouldn't ease COVID-19 restrictions until the number of new coronavirus cases falls below 10,000 daily, and "maybe even considerably less than that." 

 

That also sounds pretty vague to me.  

I agree that the gangway restrictions seem to be overkill.  Just wear a mask while boarding in crowded spaces until spead levels are below the desired threshold.  Seems sufficient to have masks, 100% vaccinated policy, or a 12 hour window as optional mitigations.  Any one should be sufficient IMHO.

Edited April 11, 2021 by Pizzasteve

[justafem]

I know for a fact (as do 2400 other pax on the grand) that the CDC and cruise lines lie.  I still get angry reading about our "experience" on the CDC website, at times shouting out the lies, other times withdrawing. I haven't looked at the website in months, but I know I'll go back and I'll flashback.  

 

They all lied, to us (pax), to the crew, to the public and in their reports.  
And they are currently lying.  

[FloaterBoat]

I just got vaccinated.  So I'm definitely cool if they make vaccines required. I'm sure many of the ports will for passengers to protect their own people. Vaccines would give us the semblance of normalcy we want 

 

I'm all for it. 

 

And people that don't want to get the vaccine will either sail with other lines or figure something else out. 

[Fat Albert]

On 4/9/2021 at 10:40 PM, NSWP said:

Surely passengers arriving into the USA, US citizens or not have to go into managed hotel quarantine for 14 days? (Like Australia has been doing for almost a year.) So pre January, going back to pandemic starting in March last year, people could just fly into the USA from anywhere with no covid test? That seems like an acute lack of responsibility and care, with all due respect I can see why Covid is out of control in USA with like near 80,000 positive cases on Thursday. 

 

Stay safe, it's a jungle out there.

SsWe do not have a southern border for the USA that has any security. We are right now spending 60 million a WEEK , Yeah that's 240 MILLION A MONTH  to process the tens of thousands of people entering the USA Southern border ILLEGALLY. We have 16 ports of entry along the border but that is for legal entry. The current administration under President Biden is importing covid at a rate of 10% positive cases from the ones we do test. They are then being bused all across the country to spread the Virus. We have over 16,000 children under the age of 16 being "housed" in detention  for processing. We have been so busy with the entry of people we are also importing tons of meth and heroin for future addicts. We have recently been treated to the TV interviews of Hunter Biden discussing his meth and crack cocaine addiction by promoting his new book. The people we have in leadership in our government right now is a grave danger to our country and the world. I know we folks in the USA gets lots of harsh criticism for all our  worldly involvement but thier is a reason the POTUS is called the most powerful person in the free world. Sadly we have got a terrible situation here in the U 

Edited April 11, 2021 by Fat Albert
additional information added