4-2-2021 CDC has issued new guidance

[chengkp75]

35 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

While I appreciate your technical knowledge and explanation on why we in the United States are in a different situation than other parts of the world, I feel those technicalities / regulations / code / law could be relaxed a bit to catch up with the 21st Century to compete in a global cruising industry.

 

Other countries are offering cruises to nowhere free of the archaic obstacles in place here, whether it is the CBP or other regulations.  The negative economic impact on our US port cities these policies demonstrate is not negligible. 

 

 

So, you are saying that our visa regulations are archaic?  In a time of unprecedented global insecurity?  Because that is what is restricting cruises to nowhere, visas, and only visas.  And, you will notice that the "cruises to nowhere" that are happening in Europe are being done by ships flying the flags of EU member nations, not Bahamas or Panama.  They have cabotage laws in the EU as well.  And, again, you said that the quarantine laws were archaic and should be updated, but you've never answered me as to what needs to be updated.  Forget the PVSA or CBP, the public health issue of vessel quarantine and free pratique is what you were saying needed revision.  How?

Edited April 6, 2021 by chengkp75

[livingonthebeach]

Just now, chengkp75 said:

So, you are saying that our visa regulations are archaic?  In a time of unprecedented global insecurity?  Because that is what is restricting cruises to nowhere, visas, and only visas.  And, you will notice that the "cruises to nowhere" that are happening in Europe are being done by ships flying the flags of EU member nations, not Bahamas or Panama.  They have cabotage laws in the EU as well.

 

I was also referring to Singapore and now the Caribbean besides Europe.  The point I'm trying to make is that we are losing out on revenue that is going to the ports and countries that have opened up to cruising while we remain closed and our US port cities and workers are suffering economic hardship, due to whatever outdated policies we have -- that's all.

[NavArch64]

As everyone here knows, Royal Caribbean Cruises, Ltd (the parent corporation) is domiciled in Monrovia, Liberia. RCCL (the brand) ships are registered in Nassau, Bahamas. Celebrity ships are registered in Valletta, Malta. All of these choices are deliberately made to avoid US law and US federal taxation to the maximum degree possible. It is ironic to me, that there are those who would like to extend this avoidance to 42 U.S.C Title 42 Chapter 6A as well. In my opinion, foreign companies who operate in the United States should respect the laws of our nation, whatever they may be.

Edited April 6, 2021 by NavArch64

[livingonthebeach]

Yesterday the Texas Rangers held their opening game with 38,238 people in the stands and no Covid19 restrictions in place.  How this is allowed and not a 50-60% restricted capacity, CV19 protocols and fully vaccinated ship is not, is beyond me.  'Nuf said. 

[A&L_Ont]

1 minute ago, livingonthebeach said:

Yesterday the Texas Rangers held their opening game with 38,238 people in the stands and no Covid19 restrictions in place.  How this is allowed and not a 50-60% restricted capacity, CV19 protocols and fully vaccinated ship is not, is beyond me.  'Nuf said. 

 

Everything is bigger in Texas.

[Jimbo]

1 minute ago, A&L_Ont said:

 

Everything is bigger in Texas.

 

4 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

Yesterday the Texas Rangers held their opening game with 38,238 people in the stands and no Covid19 restrictions in place.  How this is allowed and not a 50-60% restricted capacity, CV19 protocols and fully vaccinated ship is not, is beyond me.  'Nuf said. 

Maybe their brains are baked down there.

[livingonthebeach]

3 minutes ago, A&L_Ont said:

Everything is bigger in Texas.

 

LOL -- I'll say

[A&L_Ont]

Just now, livingonthebeach said:

 

LOL -- I'll say

 

If anything, this will quickly show us if a partially vaccinated gathering with no further protection is safe or not at this point in time.  Granted, they were only gathered for a few hours not 4-7 days but they were sitting right on top of one another.  

 

Thank-you Texas for making the sacrifice for the cruise world to learn by. 

 

And Go Jays!!  Home opener spoiler. 😁

[paulh84]

23 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

Yesterday the Texas Rangers held their opening game with 38,238 people in the stands and no Covid19 restrictions in place.  How this is allowed and not a 50-60% restricted capacity, CV19 protocols and fully vaccinated ship is not, is beyond me.  'Nuf said. 

 

Pretty easy explanation. If the CDC held authority over that situation, it's pretty obvious it wouldn't happen. But since they don't, they can't make the rules. 

[mo&fran]

CDC has jurisdiction over these events. Lets wait and see how this works out for them.

[smokeybandit]

Studies have already shown that outdoor sporting events (NCAA and NFL football, specifically) showed no evidence of covid spread.

[livingonthebeach]

12 minutes ago, paulh84 said:

 

Pretty easy explanation. If the CDC held authority over that situation, it's pretty obvious it wouldn't happen. But since they don't, they can't make the rules. 

 

Correct. In the meantime, people keep harping about how high and mighty this omnipotent agency is in protecting our health. I call BS on that. 

[harkinmr]

23 minutes ago, mo&fran said:

CDC has jurisdiction over these events. Lets wait and see how this works out for them.

CDC does not have jurisdiction over events like the Texas Rangers home opener.  Those events are governed solely by state  and local laws.  The CDC can make recommendations only, and have clearly stated that large events should be avoided.  If there is COVID spread as a result of the game, it's all on Texas.

[DCGuy64]

51 minutes ago, NavArch64 said:

All of these choices are deliberately made to avoid US law and US federal taxation to the maximum degree possible.

Please provide a credible source for this assertion. It sounds like you're reading something into their decision that may, or may not be there. For the record, I think you're probably correct, but there are usually business reasons for why these decisions are made.

My car is manufactured by Ford, an American company, in Mexico, using a combination of US, Mexican, and UK parts. I suspect, but don't know for sure, that the same car could be manufactured in the USA using only American parts, but I might not be able to afford such a car. I don't generally buy the argument that cruise lines incorporate and sail under foreign flags "just to flout US law and avoid paying US taxes," except (and this is a biggie) because the regulations and taxes are so onerous as to make it very difficult to turn a profit, and leisure cruising is a profit-making venture. Anyone who uses charitable deductions, has a 401(k) or benefits from the home mortgage interest deduction could be said to be trying to avoid paying taxes, so be careful not to condemn others of infractions of which you yourself are also guilty.

[NavArch64]

To DCGuy64 ... As you are from DC you would be savy about this ... I served as a member of the Senior Executive Service for the US DOT / Maritime Administration for many years in my professional career. It was part of my day-to-day responsibilities to fully understand the domestic and international maritime community and all of the laws, rules and regulations associated with such operations. My posts on cruise critic are based on that background and experience.  

[DCGuy64]

16 minutes ago, NavArch64 said:

To DCGuy64 ... As you are from DC you would be savy about this ... I served as a member of the Senior Executive Service for the US DOT / Maritime Administration for many years in my professional career. It was part of my day-to-day responsibilities to fully understand the domestic and international maritime community and all of the laws, rules and regulations associated with such operations. My posts on cruise critic are based on that background and experience.  

Wonderful! It's good to have experts on here to comment, as well as members of the public without your level of experience, like me.

[wolfganghowell]

As a Texan, may I humbly suggest that most of you don't know what you are talking about other than what is fed to you by the media.  Yes, 40,000 fans were allowed in.  It's outside.  No one was forced to go.  Our numbers are way down and anyone over 18 can be vaccinated.  Our hospitalizations are way down.  Almost everyone I know ( and I know a lot of people) have received at least one shot, most have had both. I'm the last person to discount covid - Mr Wolf and I both had it last fall and we were extremely careful.  We still wear masks when appropriate out of courtesy.  Almost every business I know still requires them.  So the Neanderthals still have an economy and are doing a pretty decent balancing act of being cautious and trying to live a semi-normal life during a pandemic.  We seem to have more sense than the current CDC director with her "impending sense of doom". If Florida sues for the cruise industry, I sure hope Texas joins in.  There is no reason why cruise lines can't start back up if everyone on board has been vaccinated.  The CDC needs to stop playing politics and go back to science class.

[smokeybandit]

10 minutes ago, wolfganghowell said:

As a Texan, may I humbly suggest that most of you don't know what you are talking about other than what is fed to you by the media.  Yes, 40,000 fans were allowed in.  It's outside.  No one was forced to go.  Our numbers are way down and anyone over 18 can be vaccinated.  Our hospitalizations are way down.  Almost everyone I know ( and I know a lot of people) have received at least one shot, most have had both. I'm the last person to discount covid - Mr Wolf and I both had it last fall and we were extremely careful.  We still wear masks when appropriate out of courtesy.  Almost every business I know still requires them.  So the Neanderthals still have an economy and are doing a pretty decent balancing act of being cautious and trying to live a semi-normal life during a pandemic.  We seem to have more sense than the current CDC director with her "impending sense of doom". If Florida sues for the cruise industry, I sure hope Texas joins in.  There is no reason why cruise lines can't start back up if everyone on board has been vaccinated.  The CDC needs to stop playing politics and go back to science class.

Also Texas has one of the highest percentages of variant cases, yet overall cases are way down.

[wolfganghowell]

True, most of the variants are along the border.  Our situation is quite unique given we have highly populated cities, huge geography of rural areas and a very diverse population. We seem to have handled the pandemic a lot better than Snowmageddon and the border situation!  I feel for Galveston - they need the cruise industry to get moving again.

[grandgeezer]

2 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

Please provide a credible source for this assertion. It sounds like you're reading something into their decision that may, or may not be there. For the record, I think you're probably correct, but there are usually business reasons for why these decisions are made.

My car is manufactured by Ford, an American company, in Mexico, using a combination of US, Mexican, and UK parts. I suspect, but don't know for sure, that the same car could be manufactured in the USA using only American parts, but I might not be able to afford such a car. I don't generally buy the argument that cruise lines incorporate and sail under foreign flags "just to flout US law and avoid paying US taxes," except (and this is a biggie) because the regulations and taxes are so onerous as to make it very difficult to turn a profit, and leisure cruising is a profit-making venture. Anyone who uses charitable deductions, has a 401(k) or benefits from the home mortgage interest deduction could be said to be trying to avoid paying taxes, so be careful not to condemn others of infractions of which you yourself are also guilty.

Not guilty.

I have a 401K account and the taxes are deferred. This means I pay taxes on the full amount as its withdrawn. The benefit is that it is taxed at a lower rate as most people's income is less when they retire. 

[BecciBoo]

3 hours ago, harkinmr said:

CDC does not have jurisdiction over events like the Texas Rangers home opener.  Those events are governed solely by state  and local laws.  The CDC can make recommendations only, and have clearly stated that large events should be avoided.  If there is COVID spread as a result of the game, it's all on Texas.

And yet, as noted by all the news agencies, somehow there has not been a spike since Governor Abbott rescinded the protocols....mmmm maybe the brains are just bigger and smarter...BTW, everybody seems to be moving there.......................

[chengkp75]

3 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

Please provide a credible source for this assertion.

I believe it is clause 998 of the IRS code that specifies that while foreign corporations that earn revenue in the US have to pay US taxes on that revenue, foreign owned airplanes and vessels, do not pay any tax on the revenue earned in the US.  The US Maritime Administration has also shown, in their own study, (and this is a government agency that is chartered to boost US shipping), that it costs about 3 times as much to operate a ship under US flag compared to foreign flag.

[BecciBoo]

1 hour ago, wolfganghowell said:

True, most of the variants are along the border.  Our situation is quite unique given we have highly populated cities, huge geography of rural areas and a very diverse population. We seem to have handled the pandemic a lot better than Snowmageddon and the border situation!  I feel for Galveston - they need the cruise industry to get moving again.

Galvestonians are a strange bunch, they do not like intrusion even if it means more money for them.  Never understood that.  They didn't want Oasis because they said they couldn't handle the crowds.  I never believed it...they just don't want anyone on their island. What? They handled plenty of people when there 3 ships there.

[NightOne]

15 hours ago, rcclmiami said:

First, I love cruising and have over 30 cruises since 1990. But let’s be honest. The cruise lines turn their back on the U.S. by not registering ships or hiring more Americans. Then they expect to be treated like airlines who buy Boeing planes and hire Americans to fly and maintain them. Cruise lines “try” to be U.S. friendly by investing in ports. When they start paying their share of taxes, then they should be treated fairly. I am glad the got no bailout money. 

 

So many issues with this.

 

The airlines also buy a ton of AirBus aircraft which are made mostly in France. (Airbus is a French company)

 

The cruise lines paid more Federal income tax than Amazon did.

 

https://cruiseradio.net/fact-check-do-cruise-lines-pay-us-taxes/#:~:text=In 2019%2C Carnival Corp.,than %24911 million in income.

 

Delta Airlines paid $0 in Federal taxes in 2018.

 

The Cruise industry account for 55 Billion in 2019 and more than 436,000 jobs

 

https://cruising.org/en/news-and-research/press-room/2020/november/cruise-industry-contribution-to-us-economy-grew-to-55-billion-in-2019#:~:text=In 2019%2C the cruise industry,a 5.3% increase from 2018.&text=According to the report%2C the,% increase from 2018%2C respectively.

 

*WARNING*

 

This post contains actual factual data so read it as fast as you can.

Edited April 6, 2021 by NightOne

[harkinmr]

32 minutes ago, BecciBoo said:

And yet, as noted by all the news agencies, somehow there has not been a spike since Governor Abbott rescinded the protocols....mmmm maybe the brains are just bigger and smarter...BTW, everybody seems to be moving there.......................

Governor Abbott may have rescinded the mask mandate and other protocols/restrictions, but it would appear that many municipalities, businesses and residents are ignoring his efforts and continuing to mask and exercise other precautions, which is likely why there has been no "significant" rise in cases.  Says more about the intelligence of the residents (other than the ones that went to the Rangers opener and disregarded the team's stated protocols concerning wearing masks) than the Governor.