DeSantis files suit against Biden Admin and the CDC

[Tippyton]

4 hours ago, coffeebean said:

Seriously? What alternate universe do you reside in? I won't bother wasting my time to provide links FROM the CDC which debunk what you just said. SMH!!!!!!

 

[HuliHuli]

4 hours ago, njhorseman said:

The CDC already had authority over health and safety regulations for cruises as part of its role to detect and respond to health threats. The case you're citing turns very narrowly on the moratorium on evictions in the CARES Act expiring and  not being specifically extended in subsequent legislation.

Yes, as stated in the Federal Register, to wit:

"Section 361(a), 42 U.S.C. 264(a), states that the Secretary may make and enforce regulations as necessary to prevent the introduction, transmission, and spread of “communicable diseases” from foreign countries into the United States or from one state or possession (U.S. territory) into any other state or possession (U.S. territory). By its terms, subsection (a) does not seek to limit the types of communicable diseases for which regulations may be enacted, but rather applies to all communicable diseases that may impact human health. Section 361(a) further authorizes the Secretary to promulgate and enforce a variety of public health regulations to prevent the spread of these communicable diseases, including inspection, fumigation, disinfection, sanitation, pest extermination, destruction of animals or articles found to be sources of dangerous infection to human beings, and other measures."

Sound familiar to the Ohio case?

 

And BTW,

"The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit recently denied an emergency motion to stay a trial court’s order ending the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s moratorium on residential evictions.

In so ruling, the Sixth Circuit held that the plain meaning and ejusdem generis canons of interpretation indicate that 42 U.S.C. § 264 does not allow the CDC to halt evictions."

Edited April 11, 2021 by HuliHuli
Added text

[njhorseman]

19 minutes ago, HuliHuli said:

Yes, as stated in the Federal Register, to wit:

"Section 361(a), 42 U.S.C. 264(a), states that the Secretary may make and enforce regulations as necessary to prevent the introduction, transmission, and spread of “communicable diseases” from foreign countries into the United States or from one state or possession (U.S. territory) into any other state or possession (U.S. territory). By its terms, subsection (a) does not seek to limit the types of communicable diseases for which regulations may be enacted, but rather applies to all communicable diseases that may impact human health. Section 361(a) further authorizes the Secretary to promulgate and enforce a variety of public health regulations to prevent the spread of these communicable diseases, including inspection, fumigation, disinfection, sanitation, pest extermination, destruction of animals or articles found to be sources of dangerous infection to human beings, and other measures."

Sound familiar to the Ohio case?

 

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make because "including" certainly doesn't mean "limited to"...particularly given the last three words are "and other measures".

 

[MichiganBound]

7 hours ago, BoozinCroozin said:

The infection rate is no different with Mask vs No Mask, Social Distancing vs No Social Distancing, Washing Hands vs Not Washing Hands. ALL and I mean ALL protocols and guidelines the CDC has put in place has done NOTHING to reduce the spread of covid. That is a fact. And if you think they could prove otherwise, I have ocean front property for you in Nebraska.

Honest question:  Do the CC forum rules allow members to make posts/statements that are patently false?  I mean...widely known to be totally false?  I know the last four years have showed us what happens when certain segments of society decide truth and facts do not matter anymore...but has that now become an acceptable MO here in our forums at CruiseCritic?   At what point do complete falsehoods invade the CC forums to the point that nothing can be trusted and believed here anymore? Can any given poster just post the same false information endlessly and see no consequences for such actions?      Does CruiseCritic just become a complete free-for-all?  Is there ever a reality check?

[d9704011]

7 minutes ago, MichiganBound said:

Honest question:  Do the CC forum rules allow members to make posts/statements that are patently false?  I mean...widely known to be totally false?  I know the last four years have showed us what happens when certain segments of society decide truth and facts do not matter anymore...but has that now become an acceptable MO here in our forums at CruiseCritic?   At what point do complete falsehoods invade the CC forums to the point that nothing can be trusted and believed here anymore? Can any given poster just post the same false information endlessly and see no consequences for such actions?      Does CruiseCritic just become a complete free-for-all?  Is there ever a reality check?

Absolutely not!!  You be the judge.

[HuliHuli]

5 hours ago, njhorseman said:

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make because "including" certainly doesn't mean "limited to"...particularly given the last three words are "and other measures".

 

Well, clearly you haven't read the court rulings or you wouldn't make those statements.  But I'm not going to read it to you. Bye!

[BoozinCroozin]

10 hours ago, MichiganBound said:

Honest question:  Do the CC forum rules allow members to make posts/statements that are patently false?  I mean...widely known to be totally false?  I know the last four years have showed us what happens when certain segments of society decide truth and facts do not matter anymore...but has that now become an acceptable MO here in our forums at CruiseCritic?   At what point do complete falsehoods invade the CC forums to the point that nothing can be trusted and believed here anymore? Can any given poster just post the same false information endlessly and see no consequences for such actions?      Does CruiseCritic just become a complete free-for-all?  Is there ever a reality check?

My data is as factual as the CDC and more so from their own data. Do a little research and find it yourself

 

July 14, 2020: CDC issues mask mandate. New cases: 64,602. Ever since then, the number of cases skyrocketed to the point of over 200,000 new cases per day.

 

November 12,2020: CDC issues guidance that social distancing will reduce the number of cases. New cases per day 161,639. It took 2 months for it to drop below that number. In fact, the number of cases increased drastically since. 

 

Now, you can use any random, non-factual argument that you want like "people didn't wear a mask", "people didn't social distance", "people went to non-essential businesses", blah blah bah. None of those are factual. I can use factual information from my social group. It is 25-50 people, no mask, no social distancing in a social quarters designed for 50 people. Not one person, 0.00000000% contracted, transmitted, or had anything to do with covid. This has been since Nov 1, 2020. Gathering 7 days a week for 4-6 hours a day except Thanksgiving and XMas day. Everyone has traveled, visited family, no masks, nothing. We all lived as we did before. But, according to what you have been brainwashed to believe, 8 of these people should be in ICU for more than 14-days and 2 of them should be dead. 

 

[BoozinCroozin]

15 hours ago, Tippyton said:

 

Don't use facts and true data with them. Those spikes in this data are AFTER the CDC guidelines and mandates. If the CDC was so adamant about their facts and data, they would have shutdown all schools. If social distancing is required (as the CDC says), then the head of the CDC can explain to the public on record accepting all financial liability that schools are 100% safe with no social distancing. My child just went back to school. Classrooms are designed for 25 student with 3' of separation in the classroom. The smallest class size is 36 students. That means they are all closer than 3' apart. Add to this that there is no social distancing on airplane solidifies that the CDC admits they are wrong.

 

But, you cannot argue with a brainwashed public. They are being fed a narrative that is profiting greatly from it. 

[KennyFla]

11 hours ago, MichiganBound said:

Honest question:  Do the CC forum rules allow members to make posts/statements that are patently false?  I mean...widely known to be totally false?  I know the last four years have showed us what happens when certain segments of society decide truth and facts do not matter anymore...but has that now become an acceptable MO here in our forums at CruiseCritic?   At what point do complete falsehoods invade the CC forums to the point that nothing can be trusted and believed here anymore? Can any given poster just post the same false information endlessly and see no consequences for such actions?      Does CruiseCritic just become a complete free-for-all?  Is there ever a reality check?

 

It is called debate.  Please show me the irrefutable facts about Covid 19.  Because there are none.  Right now all we have are consensus of opinion.  And I don't believe we really have that, we have a media and a certain portion of the population (a very loud portion) with an agenda.

 

Some people's  answer to people that disagree with them is to shut them up.  I rather get all the facts and opinions I can and make up my own mind.

Edited April 12, 2021 by KennyFla

[chengkp75]

9 hours ago, HuliHuli said:

Well, clearly you haven't read the court rulings or you wouldn't make those statements.  But I'm not going to read it to you. Bye!

While I always felt that the eviction moratorium was a stretch for the CDC, where they claimed that evictions could lead to interstate travel, if the CDC has not been mandated to anything other than those measures specifically listed in the USC, then they and their predecessors have been operating illegally since the founding of our nation, since quarantines and travel restrictions have been practiced since the 1700's in this country.

[PelicanBill]

Data can be mined and summarized to support any point of view.

 

Objectivity is elusive.  

 

What you can do, is compare equal situations across different settings and try to ask why are they different.

 

Why, during similar periods, did some countries have very little or no impact from Covid while others were ravaged?  Why, during similar periods, did some US States have caseloads clogging hospitals while others were coping modestly? 

 

For many of us, we see the difference. People's behavior, what restriction and when, how cases were handled... all interacted.  Here in New York we know that the behavior changes worked to "flatten the curve" of rising cases. We also know that sending people home from hospitals to senior centers too early caused more spread and death. 

 

 

 

[DCGuy64]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

While I always felt that the eviction moratorium was a stretch for the CDC, where they claimed that evictions could lead to interstate travel, if the CDC has not been mandated to anything other than those measures specifically listed in the USC, then they and their predecessors have been operating illegally since the founding of our nation, since quarantines and travel restrictions have been practiced since the 1700's in this country.

Question for you, @chengkp75, if you don't mind. Can the cruise lines take provisions from US territory to another country without running afoul of the Jones Act or PVSA? My thinking is this: some have suggested that cruise ships sailing from the Bahamas, Mexico, Bermuda, etc. would run into provisioning problems if those ports don't have sufficient supplies. I was thinking that if, for instance, MSC used one of its container ships and took the cruise ships' provisions from Miami to, say, Nassau, it wouldn't be transporting passengers from the US but it could solve the issue of where to get provisions from. Would that be possible under current law?

[HuliHuli]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

While I always felt that the eviction moratorium was a stretch for the CDC, where they claimed that evictions could lead to interstate travel, if the CDC has not been mandated to anything other than those measures specifically listed in the USC, then they and their predecessors have been operating illegally since the founding of our nation, since quarantines and travel restrictions have been practiced since the 1700's in this country.

I always value your opinion @chengkp75.  These new challenges, born out of the current pandemic, may well narrow the CDC's authority.  Time will tell.

[njhorseman]

12 hours ago, HuliHuli said:

Well, clearly you haven't read the court rulings or you wouldn't make those statements.  But I'm not going to read it to you. Bye!

Well, you're wrong.  The eviction moratorium doesn't fall into the same universe as the CDC's usual responsibilities for preventing the spread of disease, which is why it was so vulnerable to being overturned. The District Court judge's decision was about as narrow as could be. It's very clear that the ruling was based on the January 31, 2021 expiration of the law authorizing the eviction moratorium .

 

[Beardface]

The CDC has stealthy removed verbiage regarding 12 hour delay between disembarkation and boarding to language on its website to now saying "whenever practical", so we're apparently already seeing this kind of political pressure pay off.

[DCGuy64]

11 minutes ago, Beardface said:

The CDC has stealthy removed verbiage regarding 12 hour delay between disembarkation and boarding to language on its website to now saying "whenever practical", so we're apparently already seeing this kind of political pressure pay off.

Ha! 

I love it how people are so quick to dismiss the lawsuit as useless or futile. Apparently, if this is true, it IS having an effect. DeSantis: 1, CDC 0.

[Beardface]

Just now, DCGuy64 said:

Ha! 

I love it how people are so quick to dismiss the lawsuit as useless or futile. Apparently, if this is true, it IS having an effect. DeSantis: 1, CDC 0.

Oh its definitely true

 

 

[chengkp75]

43 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

Question for you, @chengkp75, if you don't mind. Can the cruise lines take provisions from US territory to another country without running afoul of the Jones Act or PVSA? My thinking is this: some have suggested that cruise ships sailing from the Bahamas, Mexico, Bermuda, etc. would run into provisioning problems if those ports don't have sufficient supplies. I was thinking that if, for instance, MSC used one of its container ships and took the cruise ships' provisions from Miami to, say, Nassau, it wouldn't be transporting passengers from the US but it could solve the issue of where to get provisions from. Would that be possible under current law?

Of course they can, just like Walmart imports produce from all over the world, on foreign flag ships.  Taking things from the US to a foreign country has nothing to do with the Jones Act or PVSA, which only apply to domestic carriage (i.e. strictly from one US port to another).  As I've said before, when folks talk about the tax liability of foreign shipping lines (and cruise lines), anything the cruise line imports from overseas, whether it is spare parts, glassware, or specialty food, never really enters the country, since it is held in Customs "bond" and the line doesn't pay import duty on the items.

 

The cruise lines would need to get shipping lined up (container space) from their usual suppliers to the new home port.  The new port just needs the ability to handle a few refrigerated containers (they would get self-cooling units (either plug in or diesel driven refrigeration units), and have some forklifts.  It would not be difficult logistically, except for the additional time involved in shipping to the new port, and getting it there on time.  It would add to the cost, though.

[chengkp75]

19 minutes ago, HuliHuli said:

I always value your opinion @chengkp75.  These new challenges, born out of the current pandemic, may well narrow the CDC's authority.  Time will tell.

If anything, it will likely increase the CDC's authority, as "post-mortem" investigations into the various pandemic responses lead to a better picture of whether a more clearly defined line of authority is needed or not.

[DCGuy64]

1 minute ago, Beardface said:

Oh its definitely true

 

 

Ah, what does he know? LOL  (just poking fun at people who claim we shouldn't believe cruise influencers like Tony because *shock* he just wants cruising to resume). Oh, the horror!

Now I have to wonder if people who worship at the shrine of the almighty CDC will say this is a mistake and everyone will die if they don't keep the 12-hour rule, LOL 😂

[teacherman]

Reading a lot of these boards is like hearing the little kid in the family car continually asking "Are we there yet?"  We were told last year when this all first began that it would probably take 12 to 18 months to get back to "normal".  That would put the expected target date sometime near to October/November.

So, even though I am "learning" a lot about CDC authority and the Jones Act and the authority limit of Federal judges and who likes DeSantis and who doesn't, all I can say is what I say to the little kid, "No, dear, we are not there yet."  And I am not willing to start speeding and put myself in danger just to get there a little earlier.

[chengkp75]

6 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

Ha! 

I love it how people are so quick to dismiss the lawsuit as useless or futile. Apparently, if this is true, it IS having an effect. DeSantis: 1, CDC 0.

I don't have a copy of the original instructions, to see whether it has changed, and the youtube link doesn't work (and we can't do youtube on the ship's internet), but if is a cruise "influencer", I would take it with several grains of salt, unless he shows visual proof of the change.  But, I would say that anything is having a lessening effect on the CDC is way premature.

[DCGuy64]

3 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

(i.e. strictly from one US port to another)

Thank you, that was also my reading of the law, but you are an industry professional so I wanted to make sure. I also wonder whether NCL, RCL, MSC, et al couldn't just pick up whatever provisions they needed in Florida and then sail off to pick up pax abroad. The extra stop would definitely cost money, but it would at least help the local companies (I assume they're local) who produce/manufacture things needed on ships. I just threw out MSC due to the fact that it's also a shipping company. Obviously, in the long term I'd like to see cruises sail from the US, but this could be an interim solution.

[DCGuy64]

1 minute ago, chengkp75 said:

I don't have a copy of the original instructions, to see whether it has changed, and the youtube link doesn't work (and we can't do youtube on the ship's internet), but if is a cruise "influencer", I would take it with several grains of salt, unless he shows visual proof of the change.  But, I would say that anything is having a lessening effect on the CDC is way premature.

I could just be a coincidence, but if the CDC has amended its condition of "no passengers on the gangway for 12 hours" to something like "as much as practicable," it does beg the question.

[DCGuy64]

5 minutes ago, teacherman said:

Reading a lot of these boards is like hearing the little kid in the family car continually asking "Are we there yet?"  We were told last year when this all first began that it would probably take 12 to 18 months to get back to "normal".  That would put the expected target date sometime near to October/November.

So, even though I am "learning" a lot about CDC authority and the Jones Act and the authority limit of Federal judges and who likes DeSantis and who doesn't, all I can say is what I say to the little kid, "No, dear, we are not there yet."  And I am not willing to start speeding and put myself in danger just to get there a little earlier.

No, it's more like "I won't stop for ice cream until you kids stop arguing." Kids stop arguing. Then dad says "I won't stop for ice cream for another 30 miles." We were told last year that things couldn't go back to normal until cases went down (they have) or until there's a vaccine (there are) and that people were getting vaccinated (there are). And yet nothing. I call BS!