Senators Introduce New CRUISE Act to Overrule CDC Order

[hcat]

2 hours ago, nocl said:

Unfortunately the middle seat blocking ends May 1.

 

A recently released paper shows that blocking the middle seats does significantly reduce risk of infection on an air craft.  Would like to see that requirement be reinstated, at least throughout the summer until case number has dropped substantially.

This is unfortunate. 

We travelled on SW Air when masks,  spacing and empty middle seats  rules were in place.  Felt  fairly safe in our bubble.

 

Return flight a few months later on SW was after the spacing rules expired.  No vacant seats on board...felt cramped and more at risk despite having  our shots by then.

 

I know airlines need to make money but some spacing would  be a good safety idea for awhile

[nomad098]

8 minutes ago, nocl said:

As the study says it is 

 

Laboratory Modeling of SARS-CoV-2 Exposure Reduction Through Physically Distanced Seating in Aircraft Cabins Using Bacteriophage Aerosol 

 

As such it is looking at dispersal patterns and shows significant reduction if the distance is expanded.  It is not a clinical trial looking at people actually getting infected (which would be where vaccines come into play)

 

If there was no eating of drinking on the plane and masks were worn throughout the entire flight than it would not matter.  But we all know people do eat, they do drink and consequently do have their masks off for a portion of the flight.

 

When the airlines left the middle seat open you did not have to risk sitting next to someone ignoring or stretching the rules to the maximum allowed.

 

When everyone is vaccinated and case counts are low it will not matter.  Now people are not all vaccinated (some never will be) and case counts are still high.

 

I would prefer that the airlines take one of two approaches  1. either require proof of vaccine or a negative test and fill the middle seat  or 2. leave the middle seat open

 

 

 

Obviously things are different in the US to UK probably because internal flights are so short here

No eating and drinking on the plane and masked for the entire journey.

 

I'm not a big fan of studies of studies and when you are using modelling with a best scientific guess for some of the variables these can very easily throw things off or not be accurate due to confirmation bias.

 

Spacing people out is really an obvious answer and no doubt it works but as with everything it comes down to risk and benefit for the airlines.

 

 

[nocl]

1 hour ago, tennis said:

I am glad some senators are pushing the CDC.  I agree cruises should start and anything that gets the CDC moving is welcome.  There is no data to show it is more hazardous than any other form of travel.  (I do think individual countries should be free to ban cruise ships visits because it is within their purview).  I do not believe everyone should be required to have a vaccination.  I have been vaccinated and think the risk is not substantial for someone my age.  There are educated people who understand how the vaccine was created that believe the roll that RNA has in cell expression may pose a risk to younger people because their rate of cell replication is much greater.  It hasn’t been thoroughly studied.  So the risk of the vaccination may be greater for some people than Covid-19 so they shouldn’t be required to have the vaccination.  I am not anti vaccination just think the risks for different populations should be considered.

I am glad for anyone pushing the CDC to do anything to get everything back open.  If you have not noticed the CDC has been wrong on many critical areas related to the virus.  The contagion (insignificant from surfaces or outdoors), death rate (orders of magnitude less than they asserted), hospitalizations (order of magnitude lower than estimated), treatments (don’t use ventilators), use of masks (the only controlled studies show no effect vs no mask mandate). 

One can argue that the risk can be mitigated but to argue that there is no data nope.

 

This is the one the CDC references in their CSO

 

COVID-19 outbreak on the Diamond Princess cruise ship: estimating the epidemic potential and effectiveness of public health countermeasures

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32109273/

 

 

This is a paper that looked at rates of infection in conjuction with cruise ports at the start of the outbreak

 

The cruise industry and the COVID-19 outbreak

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7254010/

 

The purpose of this study is to analyze the relationship between the cruise industry and the COVID-19 outbreak. We take two perspectives: the first analysis focuses on the relationship between the estimated number of cruise passengers landing and the number of COVID-19 cases. We tracked the movement of all ocean cruise ships around the world using automatic identification system data from January to March 2020. We found that countries with arrival and departure ports and with ports that continued to accept cruise ships until March have a higher COVID-19 infection rate than countries that did not.

 

 

This one is interesting because it 

Transmission potential of the novel coronavirus (COVID-19) onboard the diamond Princess Cruises Ship, 2020 - ScienceDirect

 

 

This next one is interesting because it shows the timing of infection

 

for crew and passengers on the Diamond.  Which when compared with incubation time shows that most passengers were infection prior to quarantine, most crew after quarantine.

 

https://www.niid.go.jp/niid/en/2019-ncov-e/9407-covid-dp-fe-01.html

 

 

[cl.klink]

Oh ... good.

 

The politicians will save us.

 

- Joel

[harkinmr]

5 hours ago, GeorgesGal said:

With the experience of the various cruise lines now sailing in Europe without disastrous effects, as well as all other travel options being open including US owned river cruises, I can only think of one reason CDC is still dragging its heels and I don't like my reasoning:  Not a single oceangoing cruise line operating out of US ports is owned by a US company.  Total discrimination in my opinion.  

 

I don't expect to have too many supporters for this theory, though.

 

"Discrimination is the act of making unjustified distinctions between human beings based on the groups, classes, or other categories to which they are perceived to belong. People may be discriminated on the basis of race, gender, age, religion, or sexual orientation, as well as other categories."

 

Cruise lines are by no means a "protected class".  They are treated differently than other US businesses have been during the pandemic simply because of the type of business they are engaged in and the mandate given to the CDC.  You can bet that if the CDC believed they had the ability to control other activities and businesses in the US they would have done so instead of simply issuing guidance and hoping it would be followed.  State and local governments have control over businesses like hotels, casinos, theme parks, restaurants, movie theaters and arenas, for example.  They who hold the keys get the control.  Fair or not.  

[UnorigionalName]

3 hours ago, nocl said:

Unfortunately the middle seat blocking ends May 1.

 

A recently released paper shows that blocking the middle seats does significantly reduce risk of infection on an air craft.  Would like to see that requirement be reinstated, at least throughout the summer until case number has dropped substantially.

 

How about a compromise.  Vaccinated people only in middle seats.

[nocl]

Just now, UnorigionalName said:

 

How about a compromise.  Vaccinated people only in middle seats.

that's  right penalize the vaccinated

[Jeremiah1212]

Never understood that insinuation that somehow cruise lines should have an obligation to be an 'American company'. It's a bit esoteric since these are global corporations that do business all over the world...

[UnorigionalName]

57 minutes ago, Jeremiah1212 said:

Never understood that insinuation that somehow cruise lines should have an obligation to be an 'American company'. It's a bit esoteric since these are global corporations that do business all over the world...

 

They aren't american companies, which is part of the issue.  The thing is the vast majority of their income comes from Americans.

 

59 minutes ago, nocl said:

that's  right penalize the vaccinated

 

maybe i should have worded it, Only vaccinated people in middle seats.

[Arizona Wildcat]

59 minutes ago, UnorigionalName said:

 

They aren't american companies, which is part of the issue.  The thing is the vast majority of their income comes from Americans.

About 1/3 of passengers are from Europe.  About 45% USA.  Also many in Russia and China do not show in CLIA numbers.

 

maybe i should have worded it, Only vaccinated people in middle seats.

 

[4774Papa]

13 hours ago, morechances said:

Just because airports are busy, does not mean that it is safe

Each person has to make their own decision on the risk of travel.   Even prior to out being vaccinated the fatality risk for people our age (mid-70s) was less than 1%.   Now that we have been vaccinated, the this is negligible.  We are ready to travel again and exploring places that are open.  Since Europe looks not so good this year, we looked at doing some National Parks out west, wow, all the tours are sold out at all the park tours.

[El Crucero]

2 hours ago, 4774Papa said:

Each person has to make their own decision on the risk of travel.   Even prior to out being vaccinated the fatality risk for people our age (mid-70s) was less than 1%.   Now that we have been vaccinated, the this is negligible.  

Just because you have been vaccinated, you can still be a carrier of the virus and infect others.  I want the restrictions to be over as much as anyone.  The only way to end restrictions is to follow CDC guidelines - mask, social distance, wash hands, etc.  and put an end to this pandemic.  Yes, we can protect ourselves but that does not mean we are protecting others AND you are not immune from the new variants which are much more contagious.  I don't know why this is so hard to understand.  I will not go on a cruise until the CDC says it is safe to cruise.  I have no interest in supporting a politician's agenda just so he can be reelected while putting my health at risk.

[morechances]

15 hours ago, harkinmr said:

"Discrimination is the act of making unjustified distinctions between human beings based on the groups, classes, or other categories to which they are perceived to belong. People may be discriminated on the basis of race, gender, age, religion, or sexual orientation, as well as other categories."

 

Cruise lines are by no means a "protected class".  They are treated differently than other US businesses have been during the pandemic simply because of the type of business they are engaged in and the mandate given to the CDC.  You can bet that if the CDC believed they had the ability to control other activities and businesses in the US they would have done so instead of simply issuing guidance and hoping it would be followed.  State and local governments have control over businesses like hotels, casinos, theme parks, restaurants, movie theaters and arenas, for example.  They who hold the keys get the control.  Fair or not.  

No. Cruising is not a State or local activity. They are an international activity.

And, at the end of the day, you are in close contact with others for extended periods of time with no ability to leave if you want.

 

Edited April 16, 2021 by morechances

[harkinmr]

3 minutes ago, morechances said:

No. Cruising is not a State or local activity. They are an international activity.

And, at the end of the day, you are in close contact with others for extended periods of time with no ability to leave if you want.

 

I think that it what I said.  Cruise lines are international companies, although they are operating a business in Florida.  It is the nature of their business that puts them under the purview of the CDC and its regulations.  The Governor's ban order does not apply to cruise line activities no matter how much he says it does.

[4774Papa]

2 hours ago, El Crucero said:

Just because you have been vaccinated, you can still be a carrier of the virus and infect others.  I want the restrictions to be over as much as anyone.  The only way to end restrictions is to follow CDC guidelines - mask, social distance, wash hands, etc.  and put an end to this pandemic.  Yes, we can protect ourselves but that does not mean we are protecting others AND you are not immune from the new variants which are much more contagious.  I don't know why this is so hard to understand.  I will not go on a cruise until the CDC says it is safe to cruise.  I have no interest in supporting a politician's agenda just so he can be reelected while putting my health at risk.

El Crucero,

When we go out, we mask in stores and businesses, restaurants and air craft/airports.   We don't plan our travel around a politicians agenda and I respect all opinions on travel, since that is the purpose of this site.  

The cruise industry has been treated differently from the airlines, presumably because cruising is not required to get from point A to point B.     

I do think cruising isn't ready now, but in three months when probably at least 2/3 of the country will be vaccinated and a fair percentage immune due to having the virus.  Cruising will likely be open to vaccinated people and those who can show they have the antibodies due to having the virus.   

 

If that is the case, what is the risk that such passengers will be threatened by the virus?   A virus with a very low fatality rate.

The CDC may not release cruising as soon as I do, but I will not surrender my ability to weigh the facts and make my own decision.  

Regarding vaccinated persons spreading the virus.  There is contrary evidence.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/pfizer-biontech-shot-stops-covid-spread-israeli-study-shows/ar-BB1dSiQu

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/04/cdc-data-suggests-vaccinated-dont-carry-cant-spread-virus.html

Regarding variants, there may be an issue with variants, we shall see and if necessary evaluate the risk to travel.

[SeaHunt]

22 hours ago, Orator said:

Would catch my attention more if Senators and House members representing both parties would have co signed as sponsors. There are many from both parties who have cruise ports in the areas they represent. Seem to be exclusively a Florida thing and I view the move as purely political and don't see it gaining steam. I hope I'm wrong.

 

Dueling views:

 

"Congresswoman Doris Matsui and U.S. Senator Richard Blumenthal have sent a letter to U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky, urging her to strictly enforce recently issued safety guidance under the Framework for Conditional Sailing Order (CSO) and immediately halt cruises if outbreaks occur onboard.

 

They lawmakers said the premature resumption of cruise ship operations could threaten public safety and increase the spread of the coronavirus,

 

"Given the potential for a large, virus spreading event on a cruise ship, the CDC appropriately issued its No-Sail Order to suspend cruise ship operations," they wrote in their letter.

 

https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/24792-u-s-politicians-urge-cdc-to-keep-cruise-industry-closed.html

 

The Letter

Dear Director Walensky:

We write today with significant concern about the prospect of premature resumption of cruise ship operations that could threaten public safety and increase the spread of the coronavirus. While the United States is making significant progress in distributing COVID-19 vaccines, introduction and spread of COVID-19 by cruise ship crew and passengers could undermine this progress and require additional mitigation measures that delay our economic recovery and put public health at severe risk. We urge you to strictly enforce the technical guidance issued under the Framework for Conditional Sailing Order (CSO) to minimize this threat, and take all appropriate steps—including halting cruises as necessary—if outbreaks occur on board.

 

In its March 14, 2020, No-Sail Order, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) acknowledged the “increased risk of transmission on cruise ships” noting that outbreaks on cruise ships had “resulted in countless hours of work for numerous already-burdened public health officials.” Given the potential for a large, virus spreading event on a cruise ship, the CDC appropriately issued this No-Sail Order to suspend cruise ship operations. On April 2, 2021, the CDC issued the first phase of technical guidance under the CSO, which was implemented on October 31, 2020 by the previous administration. This guidance outlines procedures and protocols that will allow resumption of cruise ship travel when it is safe to do so. Failing to adhere to this guidance could create unsafe conditions that jeopardize public health. Therefore, we believe it is a public health imperative that the CDC rigorously enforce the technical guidance under the CSO and take all necessary measures, including stopping cruise line operations as needed, if COVID-19 outbreaks happen aboard ships.

 

While the United States makes progress toward our shared goal of beating this pandemic, COVID-19 remains a grave public health risk that requires ongoing vigilance. Prematurely lifting restrictions on cruising – with thousands of people in close proximity and conditions ripe for spread of infections – threatens a serious setback in this progress. It is absolutely critical that we listen to scientists and health and safety experts over the industry and its profit-driven executives.

 

Thank you for your attention to this important public health matter.

Edited April 16, 2021 by SeaHunt
clarity

[UnorigionalName]

4 hours ago, El Crucero said:

Just because you have been vaccinated, you can still be a carrier of the virus and infect others.  

 

Mmmmm, evidence is starting to show (as kind of expected) that this might not be that significant of a concern. Similar to surfaces, and similar to asymptomatic (as opposed to pre-symptomatic) spread.

 

yes, theoretically possible, yes probably happens in rare instances, but no, doesn't seem to be even a drop in the bucket.

[El Crucero]

8 hours ago, UnorigionalName said:

 

Mmmmm, evidence is starting to show (as kind of expected) that this might not be that significant of a concern. Similar to surfaces, and similar to asymptomatic (as opposed to pre-symptomatic) spread.

 

yes, theoretically possible, yes probably happens in rare instances, but no, doesn't seem to be even a drop in the bucket.

I will follow CDC guidelines as opposed to political agendas and random non-medical and non-scientific opinions on the Internet.

[sonnycruises]

What are the CDC guidelines? No problem with untested unprotected immigrants being spread all over the US? First no mask then one mask now two. Latest info on their site is the virus is not spread from surfaces. Really?

[hcat]

17 hours ago, SeaHunt said:

 

Dueling views:

 

"Congresswoman Doris Matsui and U.S. Senator Richard Blumenthal have sent a letter to U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky, urging her to strictly enforce recently issued safety guidance under the Framework for Conditional Sailing Order (CSO) and immediately halt cruises if outbreaks occur onboard.

 

They lawmakers said the premature resumption of cruise ship operations could threaten public safety and increase the spread of the coronavirus,

 

"Given the potential for a large, virus spreading event on a cruise ship, the CDC appropriately issued its No-Sail Order to suspend cruise ship operations," they wrote in their letter.

 

https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/24792-u-s-politicians-urge-cdc-to-keep-cruise-industry-closed.html

 

The Letter

Dear Director Walensky:

We write today with significant concern about the prospect of premature resumption of cruise ship operations that could threaten public safety and increase the spread of the coronavirus. While the United States is making significant progress in distributing COVID-19 vaccines, introduction and spread of COVID-19 by cruise ship crew and passengers could undermine this progress and require additional mitigation measures that delay our economic recovery and put public health at severe risk. We urge you to strictly enforce the technical guidance issued under the Framework for Conditional Sailing Order (CSO) to minimize this threat, and take all appropriate steps—including halting cruises as necessary—if outbreaks occur on board.

 

In its March 14, 2020, No-Sail Order, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) acknowledged the “increased risk of transmission on cruise ships” noting that outbreaks on cruise ships had “resulted in countless hours of work for numerous already-burdened public health officials.” Given the potential for a large, virus spreading event on a cruise ship, the CDC appropriately issued this No-Sail Order to suspend cruise ship operations. On April 2, 2021, the CDC issued the first phase of technical guidance under the CSO, which was implemented on October 31, 2020 by the previous administration. This guidance outlines procedures and protocols that will allow resumption of cruise ship travel when it is safe to do so. Failing to adhere to this guidance could create unsafe conditions that jeopardize public health. Therefore, we believe it is a public health imperative that the CDC rigorously enforce the technical guidance under the CSO and take all necessary measures, including stopping cruise line operations as needed, if COVID-19 outbreaks happen aboard ships.

 

While the United States makes progress toward our shared goal of beating this pandemic, COVID-19 remains a grave public health risk that requires ongoing vigilance. Prematurely lifting restrictions on cruising – with thousands of people in close proximity and conditions ripe for spread of infections – threatens a serious setback in this progress. It is absolutely critical that we listen to scientists and health and safety experts over the industry and its profit-driven executives.

 

Thank you for your attention to this important public health matter.

Curious about the authors of the letter and their interest in cruising.

 

Do the authors of the letter serve on a Committee that  relates to CDC or Cruising issues.?

 

Are there  any cruiseports in Ct..the area one of them represents?

 

Is Congress holding hearings,,?

Edited April 17, 2021 by hcat

[4774Papa]

Again, I ask how risky it would be taking a cruise with everyone having been vaccinated or having antibodies from having the virus in the past?

 

Also, what is the difference from going to Disney World were thousands of persons are close together, or flying on an airplane.

 

The cruise lines will for sure still require a negative COVID19 test prior to boarding.  Some cruise lines have indicated they will not fill  up the ship with passengers and require tracking, in the unlikely event that someone gets the virus.    

 

I am not being political, I am just analyzing the facts.   Sometimes I wonder just how political CDC's decision may be?   

 

[4774Papa]

Good News

https://www.premiumtimesng.com/health/health-news/455484-clinical-trial-confirms-breakthrough-treatment-for-covid-19.html

 

[sheeng]

Premium Times - Nigeria’s leading newspaper!???!

[morechances]

1 hour ago, 4774Papa said:

Again, I ask how risky it would be taking a cruise with everyone having been vaccinated or having antibodies from having the virus in the past?

 

Also, what is the difference from going to Disney World were thousands of persons are close together, or flying on an airplane.

 

The cruise lines will for sure still require a negative COVID19 test prior to boarding.  Some cruise lines have indicated they will not fill  up the ship with passengers and require tracking, in the unlikely event that someone gets the virus.    

 

I am not being political, I am just analyzing the facts.   Sometimes I wonder just how political CDC's decision may be?   

 

Yes, Disney, flying, and any other close contact is a risk.

However, one has more opportunities to encounter a positive person on a 7 day cruise. 

Russian roulette.

Edited April 17, 2021 by morechances

[TeeRick]

2 hours ago, 4774Papa said:

Again, I ask how risky it would be taking a cruise with everyone having been vaccinated or having antibodies from having the virus in the past?

 

Also, what is the difference from going to Disney World were thousands of persons are close together, or flying on an airplane.

 

The cruise lines will for sure still require a negative COVID19 test prior to boarding.  Some cruise lines have indicated they will not fill  up the ship with passengers and require tracking, in the unlikely event that someone gets the virus.    

 

I am not being political, I am just analyzing the facts.   Sometimes I wonder just how political CDC's decision may be?   

 

I agree with you on this.  If everybody on a cruise ship is fully vaccinated (and PCR tests were done too), the cruise ship on-board environment should be as safe or safer than anywhere.  But it has to be everybody - no unvaccinated kids). And the vaccines for the passengers and crew should be from accepted sources (Pfizer, Moderna, J&J, AZ).