Texas joins lawsuit against CDC

[George C]

I think Texas has as much chance of winning as for Texas to get snow in July. If people just get vaccinated I am sure cdc will allow cruises fairly soon, in the mean time I am cruising from St Maarten 

[Pratique]

17 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

LOL - like offer more of their sled dog ice fishing trips?

Before Covid it was air quality or some other impact. Alaska seems to have a love-hate relationship with the cruise industry.

[livingonthebeach]

2 minutes ago, Pratique said:

Before Covid it was air quality or some other impact. Alaska seems to have a love-hate relationship with the cruise industry.

 

Like Key West here in FL.  Looks like the state legislature overturned their cruise ship size and passenger limit referendum. 

[susiesan]

On 5/10/2021 at 1:23 PM, d9704011 said:

They’ve got armies of lawyers with all kinds of time to argue this.  The Public Health Emergency will be declared over and the CSO will be expired before any decision on this case is made.

Isn't the CSO due to expire Nov. 1, 2021? This is what I see on the CDC web site:

This Order shall remain in effect until the earliest of

• The expiration of the Secretary of Health and Human Services’ declaration that COVID-19 constitutes a public health emergency,
• The CDC Director rescinds or modifies the order based on specific public health or other considerations, or
• November 1, 2021.

Unless this is extended again, all cruises from US ports should be good to go with no limits or restrictions unless the cruise lines decide to implement and keep them. I have a cruise in December from Miami that should be a normal cruise.

[dswallow]

It's probably of importance to consider that the CDC did not provide any of the materials yet that were needed to even attempt the sailing under their so-called conditional sail order until weeks AFTER this lawsuit was filed. There's a lot that can be implied by that little omission on their part.

Phased Approach to the Resumption of Cruise Ship Passenger Operations - OMB 0920-1335

 

 

[At Sea At Peace]

2 minutes ago, dswallow said:

It's probably of importance to consider that the CDC did not provide any of the materials yet that were needed to even attempt the sailing under their so-called conditional sail order until weeks AFTER this lawsuit was filed. There's a lot that can be implied by that little omission on their part.

Phased Approach to the Resumption of Cruise Ship Passenger Operations - OMB 0920-1335

 

 

 

Thanks.

 

There was a filing of an Agreement between the parties that the information provided in the filings and exhibits was to be the sole sources presented and that there would be no live testimony.  So, that will be interesting, from both perspectives.

 

I did find it odd that the intervenor representing Texas and Alaska were denied a motion to participate telephonically.

[dswallow]

7 minutes ago, At Sea At Peace said:

 

Thanks.

 

There was a filing of an Agreement between the parties that the information provided in the filings and exhibits was to be the sole sources presented and that there would be no live testimony.  So, that will be interesting, from both perspectives.

 

I did find it odd that the intervenor representing Texas and Alaska were denied a motion to participate telephonically.

 

They both stated they were not participating, only wanted to "audit" the proceeding, so I can see avoiding the nuisance.

Florida v. HHS, CDC (2150.com)

[BeachyBrowns]

On 5/10/2021 at 2:23 PM, Big_G said:

When an argument side steps the real issue, which is why an industry is being held to higher standard, my opinion is they are wrong.  That doesn't always translate to a victory for the plaintiff. There are othrer issues that come into play including politics.

Sidesteps the issue of the cruise industry being treated differently?  Ah, no.  From the brief:

"These experiences demonstrated that cruise ships are uniquely suited to spread COVID-19, likely due to their close quarters for passengers and crew for prolonged periods, and other factors."  You may not like that argument, but it's not a dodge.  And the fact that Defendants make other legal arguments does not constitute a dodge, either.

[dswallow]

1 minute ago, BeachyBrowns said:

Sidesteps the issue of the cruise industry being treated differently?  Ah, no.  From the brief:

"These experiences demonstrated that cruise ships are uniquely suited to spread COVID-19, likely due to their close quarters for passengers and crew for prolonged periods, and other factors."  You may not like that argument, but it's not a dodge.  And the fact that Defendants make other legal arguments does not constitute a dodge, either.

 

Except that what, only 3 cruise ships have had any significant outbreak, and all were when few if any knew a thing about what was breaking out? And some of those as large as they were, because governments didn't handle them well and isolated people aboard the ship, basically being the cause of the outbreak spreading as it did?

COVID-19 pandemic on cruise ships - Wikipedia


Haven't there been larger outbreaks traced to various political gatherings?

Or other things... The 25 Biggest COVID Outbreaks in America (msn.com)

And even today the guidelines from the CDC still barely even acknowledge any differences of behavior for vaccinated vs. unvaccinated. And they completely ignore gatherings exclusively of vaccinated people.

[BeachyBrowns]

Just now, dswallow said:

 

Except that what, only 3 cruise ships have had any significant outbreak, and all were when few if any knew a thing about what was breaking out? And some of those as large as they were, because governments didn't handle them well and isolated people aboard the ship, basically being the cause of the outbreak spreading as it did?

COVID-19 pandemic on cruise ships - Wikipedia


Haven't there been larger outbreaks traced to various political gatherings?

Or other things... The 25 Biggest COVID Outbreaks in America (msn.com)

And even today the guidelines from the CDC still barely even acknowledge any differences of behavior for vaccinated vs. unvaccinated. And they completely ignore gatherings exclusively of vaccinated people.

Political gatherings are not industries of the sort that the person to whom I was replying was referring to when he complained that the cruise industry is being held to a higher standard.  The CDC doesn't have jurisdiction to prevent political gatherings or, indeed, most kinds of land-based activity.  But they DO have jurisdiction to prevent the spread of communicable disease by ship.  They have the power (it's not a power grab--they already have the power) to restrict cruise lines and other kinds of maritime activity, too.

 

In the end, the hard fact is that the people here, including me, really love cruising, but what we all really love is really frivolous and, therefore, not worth taking public health risks with.  Stick the bigwigs at CDC with truth serum and that's what they'll tell you.  Airports, meat packing plants, industrial facilities, and similar productive economic activity are just more important than cruising.  If CDC could have forbidden people from engaging in frivolities like casino gaming and house parties, they probably would have, but they don't have that power.

[Tree_skier]

5 minutes ago, BeachyBrowns said:

In the end, the hard fact is that the people here, including me, really love cruising, but what we all really love is really frivolous and, therefore, not worth taking public health risks with.  Stick the bigwigs at CDC with truth serum and that's what they'll tell you.  Airports, meat packing plants, industrial facilities, and similar productive economic activity are just more important than cruising.  If CDC could have forbidden people from engaging in frivolities like casino gaming and house parties, they probably would have, but they don't have that power.

Exactly right.  Truth serum is about the only thing that would get the truth out of these clowns they've lied to us so many times it's hard to catalog them all. This is one of the few things they actually control and by god they're not going to relinquish that God like power for anything.  Petty bureaucrats, who nobody cared about, suddenly thrust in the lime light for their 15 minutes of fame. They'll exercise that control and milk that significance for as long as they can.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Tree_skier

[livingonthebeach]

Is there any other sector of the travel or hospitality industries that are completely shut down?  I can hop on a bus, train, trolley, plane, airboat, ferry, plane and stay on for hours several days in a row.  

 

I can stay for months at a resort hotel, eat at restaurants indoor and out, visit parks, museums, theatres, stadiums etc etc etc.  But I can’t take a 3 night f-ing cruise at reduced capacity from Miami to Nassau with fully vaccinated passengers following strict health protocols? 

 

I can’t seem to wrap my head around this... CDC has some compelling arguments but when they use examples from the beginning of the pandemic and you look around and everything in the same industry sector is open, it is hard to justify not lifting the CSO or at least doing away with the most onerous requirements that are not mandated for any other industry.

[BeachyBrowns]

2 minutes ago, Tree_skier said:

Exactly right.  Truth serum is about the only thing that would get the truth out of these clowns they've lied to us so many times it's hard to catalog them all. This is one of the few things they actually control and by god they're not going to relinquish that God like power for anything.  Petty bureaucrats, who nobody cared about, suddenly thrust in the lime light for their 15 minutes of fame. They'll exercise that control and milk that significance for as long as they can.

Mmmkay, buddy.

 

This issue is not "the limelight," because, as I said, cruising is just not important to public health, which is the CDC's overriding consideration. 

 

Step back from the trees, Skier, and see the forest.

[dswallow]

3 minutes ago, BeachyBrowns said:

Mmmkay, buddy.

 

This issue is not "the limelight," because, as I said, cruising is just not important to public health, which is the CDC's overriding consideration. 

 

Step back from the trees, Skier, and see the forest.

 

It was important enough to stop.

 

It was important enough to create some ridiculous impractical, detailed, and incomplete rules to resume sailing under.

 

Then it's important enough to have engaged the brain at least a little when creating such rules, and to follow through with actually providing all the things you say you're providing so that it's possible, onerous or not, to actually move forward under them.

If it's so unimportant, then they should just end them and allow them to open up with private industry and consumer demand dictating the protocols, LIKE EVERY FRIGGIN' OTHER INDUSTRY IN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY HAS BEEN PERMITTED TO DO.

 

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by dswallow

[livingonthebeach]

36 minutes ago, BeachyBrowns said:

..."likely due to their close quarters for passengers and crew for prolonged periods, and other factors."

 

Airlines are selling middle seats on lengthy flights where people are inches away from each other for prolonged periods.  There are crowded busses, subways, and on most public transportation.  I can guarantee you if I'm on a cruise ship for 3 nights with limited capacity I will not be two inches away from any person I'm not traveling with for prolonged periods.  If I accidentally get too close to any passenger or crew, we will all be vaccinated.  That argument doesn't pass muster -- pun intended. 

[smokeybandit]

37 minutes ago, dswallow said:

Except that what, only 3 cruise ships have had any significant outbreak, and all were when few if any knew a thing about what was breaking out? And some of those as large as they were, because governments didn't handle them well and isolated people aboard the ship, basically being the cause of the outbreak spreading as it did?

 

And there's actually no evidence that the outbreak happened on the ship since there was no way to trace the origin.  There's simply no way an 84 yr old was responsible for all the infections on the Diamond Princess.

[At Sea At Peace]

11 minutes ago, BeachyBrowns said:

Political gatherings are not industries of the sort that the person to whom I was replying was referring to when he complained that the cruise industry is being held to a higher standard. 

 

The cruise industry is being held to a different standard than other industries.  Period.  Health and safety considerations are no longer the reason IMO.

 

The CDC doesn't have jurisdiction to prevent political gatherings or, indeed, most kinds of land-based activity. 

 

But they give the guidance for the land-based activities.

 

But they DO have jurisdiction to prevent the spread of communicable disease by ship.

 

They "first" had the responsibility for "Prevention."  It is after failing at Prevention the Center for "Disease Control" took the forefront.

 

 They have the power (it's not a power grab--they already have the power) to restrict cruise lines and other kinds of maritime activity, too.

 

Power is not a good thing, especially by a government.  

 

11 minutes ago, BeachyBrowns said:

 

In the end, the hard fact is that the people here, including me, really love cruising, but what we all really love is really frivolous and, therefore, not worth taking public health risks with.  Stick the bigwigs at CDC with truth serum and that's what they'll tell you.  Airports, meat packing plants, industrial facilities, and similar productive economic activity are just more important than cruising.  If CDC could have forbidden people from engaging in frivolities like casino gaming and house parties, they probably would have, but they don't have that power.

 

There are no bigwigs at the CDC.  They should be ashamed of their failure at Prevention.  After that, they should be ashamed for the lies in the Disease Control that are now being unearthed. 

 

Shameful.

 

"Frivolous" activities are out? 

 

Yep, here we go to the reset.  What is "essential?"  "Equitable?"

 

Cruising, out.

 

Now onto ~

 

A really nice car, out.

A really nice house, out.

A second home, out.

A boat, out.

Dining out, out.

Resort vacations, out (close Disney World et al)

Travel, out.

 

Seriously, while those that propose such (to the weak) jet off in gulfstream jets or float in private mega-yachts.

 

"Airports?"  Seriously?  The real vein used by the virus to traverse continents, including the USA.

 

Flights?  12-20% business related; no real business proof essential.  The balance, leisure.

 

"House parties?"  Yikes.

 

We went from 15 days to flatten the curve to "show me your papers." 

 

That's sad.  Worse, is that some actually accept such.  That's OK also. 

 

It's pro-choice.  Just let others also choose for themselves.

 

And no, that does not put others at risk if they are vaccinated.  Unless we've been lied to about the vaccines.

 

[At Sea At Peace]

25 minutes ago, Tree_skier said:

Exactly right.  Truth serum is about the only thing that would get the truth out of these clowns they've lied to us so many times it's hard to catalog them all. This is one of the few things they actually control and by god they're not going to relinquish that God like power for anything.  Petty bureaucrats, who nobody cared about, suddenly thrust in the lime light for their 15 minutes of fame. They'll exercise that control and milk that significance for as long as they can.

 

Agreed.

 

That's what is called knowing the relationship between a tree and a forest.  You see, there is no forest without any trees.  😉

[dswallow]

CDC’s slow, cautious Covid-19 messaging seems out of step with moment (statnews.com)

[BSocial]

3 hours ago, susiesan said:

Isn't the CSO due to expire Nov. 1, 2021? This is what I see on the CDC web site:

This Order shall remain in effect until the earliest of

• The expiration of the Secretary of Health and Human Services’ declaration that COVID-19 constitutes a public health emergency,
• The CDC Director rescinds or modifies the order based on specific public health or other considerations, or
• November 1, 2021.

Unless this is extended again, all cruises from US ports should be good to go with no limits or restrictions unless the cruise lines decide to implement and keep them. I have a cruise in December from Miami that should be a normal cruise.

CDC could extend both the NSO and CSO again.   I’m not at all confident they will just let them expire.  And that’s a shame,  

 

They still haven’t updated to reflect the current state (vaccinated guests,  removing indoor and outdoor mask requirements for vaccinated guests. -  they still list 6 foot distancing vs 3 foot for schools, etc.).  
 

[firefly333]

1 hour ago, BeachyBrowns said:

Mmmkay, buddy.

 

This issue is not "the limelight," because, as I said, cruising is just not important to public health, which is the CDC's overriding consideration. 

 

Step back from the trees, Skier, and see the forest.

I see the cruise industry featured on my stock channel all the time. If you think the cdc doesnt relish this you and I seeing it opposite.

 

I'm with tree skier. Smart guy. Cant wait to meet him on my dec cruise.

[Goodtime Cruizin]

It appears that just filing the lawsuit got the Clowns Directing Covid moving... 

[Tree_skier]

32 minutes ago, dswallow said:

CDC’s slow, cautious Covid-19 messaging seems out of step with moment (statnews.com)

This is a fantastic article! Thank you for posting it.

[Goodtime Cruizin]

On 5/10/2021 at 4:57 PM, George C said:

I think Texas has as much chance of winning as for Texas to get snow in July. If people just get vaccinated I am sure cdc will allow cruises fairly soon, in the mean time I am cruising from St Maarten 

 

I think it might be snowing soon. 

[Tree_skier]

37 minutes ago, firefly333 said:

I see the cruise industry featured on my stock channel all the time. If you think the cdc doesnt relish this you and I seeing it opposite.

 

I'm with tree skier. Smart guy. Cant wait to meet him on my dec cruise.

I'm not all that smart. However, I'm smart enough to know when I 've been lied to and I'm smart enough to not let it happen a second time.