Canadian cruisers to USA ports: vaccine challenges w/ cruise lines (inc Celebrity)

[redtop101]

As the father of @mirkymirkI just want to add my 2 cents here. I know this is a Celebrity forum but just want to comment on the inconsistency and confusion created by definition of “fully vaccinated” depending on who is calling the shots (no pun intended)

 

Yesterday I watched a 47 minute YouTube video which was actually presented by Princess Cruises and their Director of Clinical Services, Dr. Brenda Barnetson to try to clarify and present an update as to many of the questions regarding proof of vaccination, fully vaccinated etc. etc. 
 

This is for all their cruises leaving US ports up to and including Oct 31/2021
 

The attached photo is a slide from this presentation, and I will leave it there. 

 

 

Edited August 13, 2021 by redtop101

[nocl]

1 hour ago, Miaminice said:

Wrong! There are studies in all the countries where mixed vaccination happened. Does it work? Not hard to say… Results are clear - efficacy is at least the same as 2 x mRNA possibly even better. 

Problem is that those are relatively small studies, generally designed to look at antibody response.  They are not designed to be "registration" studies, which are designed to provide specific information needed to approve drugs/vaccines.

[nocl]

8 hours ago, TeeRick said:

I cannot see any reason for the FDA to grant AZ an EUA in the USA at this point in time.

Considering some of the issues with the AZ vaccine compared to MRNA vaccines on both safety and efficacy, I doubt it would get full approval either.  J&J also might not pass the full approval hurdle either.

[nocl]

1 hour ago, Cg52 said:

Does Celebrity accept cruisers with two doses of AstraZeneca as is the case for many UK travellers?

Yes, the two shot AZ vaccine is an vaccine that has been reviewed and authorized by WHO.

 

The CDC (and correspondingly the cruise lines leaving from US ports) accept vaccines authorized by WHO and/or the FDA as being fully vaccinated.

 

AS far as cruises leaving from other countries that is based upon what countries will accept.  The European countries also accept AZ vaccine because it has authorization from EMEA, though there are some issues with the Indian produced lots because the manufacturing facility has not been certified by EMEA so some EU countries may not accept those lots.

[Fouremco]

2 hours ago, redtop101 said:

As the father of @mirkymirkI just want to add my 2 cents here. I know this is a Celebrity forum but just want to comment on the inconsistency and confusion created by definition of “fully vaccinated” depending on who is calling the shots (no pun intended)

 

Yesterday I watched a 47 minute YouTube video which was actually presented by Princess Cruises and their Director of Clinical Services, Dr. Brenda Barnetson to try to clarify and present an update as to many of the questions regarding proof of vaccination, fully vaccinated etc. etc. 
 

This is for all their cruises leaving US ports up to and including Oct 31/2021
 

The attached photo is a slide from this presentation, and I will leave it there. 

 

 

I'm surprised to see the 1 AZ + 2 mRNA listed, as that could simply be considered 2 mRNA. But as others have said, if your son gets a second mRNA shot, even if he has to travel down to Washington to get, he'll be good to go. 

[MR_T]

8 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

I'm surprised to see the 1 AZ + 2 mRNA listed, as that could simply be considered 2 mRNA. But as others have said, if your son gets a second mRNA shot, even if he has to travel down to Washington to get, he'll be good to go. 

This is what we received so it’s good to see it actually listed… hope this doesn’t change 🤞🏻

[Fouremco]

2 minutes ago, MR_T said:

This is what we received so it’s good to see it actually listed… hope this doesn’t change 🤞🏻

One of the benefits of living in la belle province!

[MR_T]

3 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

One of the benefits of living in la belle province!

Along with the fries/gravy & curds 😋 🐷😂

[sanger727]

3 hours ago, Miaminice said:

Wrong! There are studies in all the countries where mixed vaccination happened. Does it work? Not hard to say… Results are clear - efficacy is at least the same as 2 x mRNA possibly even better. 

pfizers vaccine studies that were the basis of the fda eua were with two Pfizer shots. Moderna studies that were the basis of the fda eua were two moderna shots. Studies someone else may have done late are irrelevant to the cases these two drug companies made to the fda to emergency use. The manufacturer’s recommendation is two of their shots. Which is what is approved in the US since by now, anyone who wanted two have been able to get them.

 

and the after the fact studies were not double blind clinical trials like the real phase 3 studies. And they were with hundreds of participants instead of tens of thousands like the phase 3 trials. Nowhere close to the same level of proof.

Edited August 14, 2021 by sanger727

[redtop101]

Please see screen screenshot in post above which is what is considered as fully vaccinated by FDA/WHO/CDC. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Fouremco]

13 minutes ago, MR_T said:

Along with the fries/gravy & curds 😋 🐷😂

Of course, that goes without saying! 😇

[jg51]

4 hours ago, truckswain said:

... I find it ironic that in Canada, with what the CDC claims is unapproved and untested vaccine mixing,  is lowering  case counts, hospitalizations and deaths.  What more proof is needed than that? ...

.

Hello, "truckswain."

We want to begin by assuring you that we do not support the CDC on this matter nor on some other matters.  However ...

 

We have to point out that part of what you stated above -- the text that we have highlighted -- is not accurate.  We suspect that you have not recently consulted the case numbers, because they have been rising in Canada for the past twenty days, as you will be able to see in this graph [the range of which we suggest that you adjust to show just the last "30 days" by clicking on the "All time" button]:

https://www.google.com/search?q=graph+covid+cases+canada&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1

 

Without a doubt, the number of Canadian cases (and the number per 100,000 population) is dwarfed by the high numbers of U.S. cases.  We cannot, however, assume that the smaller Canadian number is attributable solely to the vaccines used up north.  In other words, we don't see the smaller number of cases as proof that the mixing of vaccines is reliable.  [It may be true, but it has to be proved by formal tests.]  Our own suspicion is that the smaller Canadian number is due more to the responsible (civilized) behavior of Canadians -- by comparison to the irresponsible behavior of too many of our fellow U.S. residents (especially in the big cities).

 

We hope that you will enjoy a marvelous cruise on the Apex.

.

[cachouonacruise]

On 8/12/2021 at 11:48 PM, mirkymirk said:

  My first dose was AstraZeneca and my second was Moderna as we were informed that 'mix dosing' was permitted, and as there were reports that the AstraZeneca was causing some side effects in a rare number of cases.  I have received two vaccinations.  My wife has recei

ved two doses of Moderna. 

 

Here is the problem.  According to Celebrity in Florida, I am not considered fully vaccinated and at this time, I am unable to obtain a second dose of Moderna as our health authority is not offering this as an option (I called today). 

 

Hi Myrkymirk,

 

Just in case this information can help you.

 

I am a fellow Canadian, from the province of Quebec. Exactly like you, I received Astra-Zeneca as a first dose and Moderna as a second while my wife received two doses of Moderna. My daughter received a first dose of Covishield (Astra-Zeneca) and a second dose of Pfizer.

 

My wife and I are booked on two upcoming cruises: X and NCL, while my daughter is booked on a different NCL cruise.

 

Of note, the vaccine requirements varied for X in Europe versus NCL in Europe, and NCL in USA. In addition, requirements may vary from country to country, rendering a trip with stops in multiple countries quite complex.

 

Taking this in consideration, and also, taking in consideration the Delta variant impact resulting in countries such as France and Israel opting to provide an additional booster shot to specific population groups and also,: for Moderna and Pfizer to recommend a third dose, I decided to inquire if I should and could get another dose of Moderna.

 

To my surprise and relief, in Quebec, our health authority authorizes people initially vaccinated with Astra-Zeneca for the first dose, to receive an additional dose for travelling purposes. 

 

So both my daughter and me were able to go to a local walk-in clinic. I have received another shot of the Moderna, while my daughter has received another shot of Pfizer. So we both meet fully vaccinated criteria for cruise lines and most countries.

 

If this worked in Quebec..... there is no reason it should not work in BC. ( Of note, my daughter, by phone, was also initially refused access to a third dose. Our only option was via a walk-in clinic).

 

Hoping this can help you too! Good luck! 

 

 

[Miaminice]

4 hours ago, sanger727 said:

pfizers vaccine studies that were the basis of the fda eua were with two Pfizer shots. Moderna studies that were the basis of the fda eua were two moderna shots. Studies someone else may have done late are irrelevant to the cases these two drug companies made to the fda to emergency use. The manufacturer’s recommendation is two of their shots. Which is what is approved in the US since by now, anyone who wanted two have been able to get them.

 

and the after the fact studies were not double blind clinical trials like the real phase 3 studies. And they were with hundreds of participants instead of tens of thousands like the phase 3 trials. Nowhere close to the same level of proof.

LOL apples and oranges… of course studies for registration of drugs were done by the manufacturers with higher numbers vs later studies by independent organizations - incl. high level medical universities and institutions - which are done to “only” determine the efficacy of combinations. Hardly a surprise…

 

However, the outcome of the studies on the combinations are so crystal clear that they are not challenged by scientist around the world. Only the real experts and scientists on CC 😉

 

Edited August 14, 2021 by Miaminice

[mirkymirk]

21 hours ago, Miaminice said:

@mirkymirk
You are blaming Celebrity for something that isn`t their fault!
Celebrity merely follows CDC guidelines in the US.

 

Sailing from other destinations they follow the local guidelines - see Apex from Greece and Silhouette sailings from the UK. Mixed vaccination is accepted in both cases. I had a mix of AZ and BioNtech and will be sailing on Apex in 3 weeks.

 

Quote:
 

All sailings departing the U.S. are subject to guidance from the CDC. Currently, the CDC does not recognize any mixed combination of COVID-19 vaccines as fully vaccinated. For sailings departing the United States, to be recognized as fully vaccinated, guests 12 years of age and older, must complete a vaccine series with products from the same manufacturer, with the last dose administered at least 14 days prior to sailing. All sailings departing from St. Maarten will also follow this guidance.

 

For sailings departing from the UK, Greece or the Galapagos, we will follow the respective country guidance and allow for a mix of AstraZeneca, Pfizer and Moderna vaccines. Guests sailing on Celebrity Silhouette departing from Southampton, Celebrity Apex departing from Athens or Celebrity Flora, Xploration and Xpedition in the Galapagos may have mixed doses as follows:

 

• AstraZeneca, with the AstraZeneca dose being administered first, followed within 8–12 weeks by either the Pfizer or Moderna dose.
• One dose of Pfizer or Moderna followed at least four weeks later by a second dose of Pfizer or Moderna.  

So if I travelled on celebrity in the Uk I would be considered fully vaccinated, as I am in Canada, but as I am cruising out of Florida, they don’t consider me vaccinated? How logical is that?

[Miaminice]

1 minute ago, mirkymirk said:

So if I travelled on celebrity in the Uk I would be considered fully vaccinated, as I am in Canada, but as I am cruising out of Florida, they don’t consider me vaccinated? How logical is that?

Not saying it is logical… however it is not Celebrity’s fault.

Europe and the UK accept the vaccination and the US does not. Celebrity, just like any cruise line, have to follow local laws. If they - or we - like it or not.

[mirkymirk]

13 minutes ago, cachouonacruise said:

 

Hi Myrkymirk,

 

Just in case this information can help you.

 

I am a fellow Canadian, from the province of Quebec. Exactly like you, I received Astra-Zeneca as a first dose and Moderna as a second while my wife received two doses of Moderna. My daughter received a first dose of Covishield (Astra-Zeneca) and a second dose of Pfizer.

 

My wife and I are booked on two upcoming cruises: X and NCL, while my daughter is booked on a different NCL cruise.

 

Of note, the vaccine requirements varied for X in Europe versus NCL in Europe, and NCL in USA. In addition, requirements may vary from country to country, rendering a trip with stops in multiple countries quite complex.

 

Taking this in consideration, and also, taking in consideration the Delta variant impact resulting in countries such as France and Israel opting to provide an additional booster shot to specific population groups and also,: for Moderna and Pfizer to recommend a third dose, I decided to inquire if I should and could get another dose of Moderna.

 

To my surprise and relief, in Quebec, our health authority authorizes people initially vaccinated with Astra-Zeneca for the first dose, to receive an additional dose for travelling purposes. 

 

So both my daughter and me were able to go to a local walk-in clinic. I have received another shot of the Moderna, while my daughter has received another shot of Pfizer. So we both meet fully vaccinated criteria for cruise lines and most countries.

 

If this worked in Quebec..... there is no reason it should not work in BC. ( Of note, my daughter, by phone, was also initially refused access to a third dose. Our only option was via a walk-in clinic).

 

Hoping this can help you too! Good luck! 

 

 

Thank you for sharing your experience. I called our local health authority and they said they would not provide me with a second mRNA dose. 

[Miaminice]

@cachouonacruise

 

The solution with the third shot works… however, it only works if the second and third shot was within the timeline to be accepted as one complete vaccination.

 

We were vaccinated quite early. First shot AZ, second shot BioNtech. Too long ago that a third BioNtech shot now would count. So if required we will get a shot with J & J which alone would be accepted… crazy times!

Edited August 14, 2021 by Miaminice

[mirkymirk]

4 minutes ago, Miaminice said:

Not saying it is logical… however it is not Celebrity’s fault.

Europe and the UK accept the vaccination and the US does not. Celebrity, just like any cruise line, have to follow local laws. If they - or we - like it or not.

So much for science I guess! If our chief medical officer in BC can make CNN because of her logical and scientific approach to vaccines… someone at the CDC and cruise lines needs her phone number!

[Miaminice]

3 minutes ago, mirkymirk said:

So much for science I guess! If our chief medical officer in BC can make CNN because of her logical and scientific approach to vaccines… someone at the CDC and cruise lines needs her phone number!

😂 yes, but with all the bashing we need to remember that the job of any health organization worldwide is not to worry about a few cruise passengers but the overall situation. We also know that the world of your neighbors stops at the border…

 

[TeeRick]

7 hours ago, mirkymirk said:

So much for science I guess! If our chief medical officer in BC can make CNN because of her logical and scientific approach to vaccines… someone at the CDC and cruise lines needs her phone number!

So being on CNN is the benchmark?  The FDA/CDC and Health Canada all have well established rules to follow for their countries.  Based on science and medicine.  In the US there is no current issue with mixed vaccine doses for US citizens.  It has not been allowed.  So why do you think the CDC should make an exception for Canadian citizens?  I know it is difficult for some Canadian cruisers and travelers to accept because of what their government authorized for mixed doses in a time of great need.  But the US CDC is not responsible for Canadian vacationers.  Sorry not trying to be controversial.  I sympathize. But this is one small thing of many that all of us have faced throughout the pandemic and did not like how it affected us personally.

[TeeRick]

7 hours ago, mirkymirk said:

So if I travelled on celebrity in the Uk I would be considered fully vaccinated, as I am in Canada, but as I am cruising out of Florida, they don’t consider me vaccinated? How logical is that?

What is logical to you does not really matter.  What is logical to country health authorities is what matters.

[nocl]

12 hours ago, mirkymirk said:

So much for science I guess! If our chief medical officer in BC can make CNN because of her logical and scientific approach to vaccines… someone at the CDC and cruise lines needs her phone number!

Actually neither FDA or WHO consider mixed vaccines to be fully vaccinated.

 

CDC accepts any vaccine authorized by FDA or the World Health Organization. All it takes is for someone to complete registration grade trials, assemble and submit the combination for authorization by either organization.

 

The FDA is not going to change its standards just because Canada made a decision to use combinations.

 

Heath Canada is actually running its first large trial on mixed vaccines now.  It is expected to complete in 2023. Though there may be enough safety and efficacy data for Health Canada to make a WHO submission before that point.

 

The fastest mechanism is most likely a trial being done by Pfizer for Pfizer as the second shot to AZ first shot.  Do not know if Moderna is doing something similar.

 

The decision to used combinations was made and implemented prior to even any small trials being completed (there were a couple of small trials being initiated, but not yet completed at the time of the decision). Based just on some pre-clinical work and the view that if each vaccine was safe by itself then a combination of the two should also be safe.

Edited August 14, 2021 by nocl

[AlbertaCruisers]

@cachoutonacruise - Just as a note, I have friends in both Ontario and Alberta that have tried to get 3rd doses and they were not allowed to do so.  The government still wants to push to get everyone first and second doses and won't allow thirds.  

[truckswain]

18 hours ago, jg51 said:

.

Hello, "truckswain."

We want to begin by assuring you that we do not support the CDC on this matter nor on some other matters.  However ...

 

We have to point out that part of what you stated above -- the text that we have highlighted -- is not accurate.  We suspect that you have not recently consulted the case numbers, because they have been rising in Canada for the past twenty days, as you will be able to see in this graph [the range of which we suggest that you adjust to show just the last "30 days" by clicking on the "All time" button]:

https://www.google.com/search?q=graph+covid+cases+canada&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1

 

Without a doubt, the number of Canadian cases (and the number per 100,000 population) is dwarfed by the high numbers of U.S. cases.  We cannot, however, assume that the smaller Canadian number is attributable solely to the vaccines used up north.  In other words, we don't see the smaller number of cases as proof that the mixing of vaccines is reliable.  [It may be true, but it has to be proved by formal tests.]  Our own suspicion is that the smaller Canadian number is due more to the responsible (civilized) behavior of Canadians -- by comparison to the irresponsible behavior of too many of our fellow U.S. residents (especially in the big cities).

 

We hope that you will enjoy a marvelous cruise on the Apex.

.

Yes case counts  have fluctuated and some provinces are seeing increases.  I would completrly agree smaller case counts is due to a number of factors and just not vaccines.  However declining hospitalizations and deaths amid a  rise in case counts is directly related to vaccination.  So whatever combination of dosing has led to full vaccination is working period.

 

And the CDC/FDA stating I am not fully vaccinated is insulting and reinforces the ignorance and uselessness of these two organizations.  There is a big world out there thst extends beyond the US borders.