Tipping now more important than ever

[slidergirl]

3 hours ago, Mike981 said:

 

Yes, I have heard this explanation my whole life. And I believed it for a while, not anymore. I truly wish it was this simple.

 

 
Bingo. I hope you are enjoying your career in the property management business.

Honestly, it's my 3rd "career" that I've had.  It is by far the easiest job I've had, outside of when I worked at the ski resort.  Not all the nastiness that the hotel front desk business had.  Some, but not all.  

[ldubs]

11 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Economics is far outside my brief. But isn't it a tenet of capitalism that if owners cannot attract workers at the going rate, they will eventually have to offer more?  E.g., if workers can find better jobs at a better wage they'll take them in preference.

 

Yes, what you say is exactly what is happening.   

 

11 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

Issues start to creep in when there ARE no better paying jobs and/or when the cost of living is increasing at a faster rate than wages. I've seen the math for my given economic area and it's clear to me that someone working in a minimum-wage job cannot really "afford" to live and meet what most of us would consider basic needs without having to work a second job.

 

 

Regional cost differences are incredible.  I would say the same about minimum wage jobs in my area.  Our minimum hourly is now $14 or $15 depending.  

[ldubs]

6 hours ago, slidergirl said:

My friends who are servers/bellpeople say the worst tippers are those who come out for the Sundance Film Festival.  They order a coffee, sit for 2 hours at that table, and don't leave a tip.  Or, they only do 10% if lucky.  Bellpeople will maybe get $2 for their assistance.  One of the reasons I always tip well, let them know that someone appreciates the work they do.    for that $2.17 minimum, I believe there is attached some sort of expectation of reporting a certain amount of earned gratuity.   

 

Yes, the IRS has a minimum tip % that is added to that basic $2.13 and reported as income.   Of course, the law says that an employee is supposed to report all tips, but I don't want to go off on that tangent.   In many and perhaps most states tips are included in the minimum wage calculation.  Here in California the minimum hourly paid does not include tips.  

 

 

[Peter Lanky]

After 20 pages of comments, I can still see nothing in favour of tipping (in general rather than just cruises), other than that a few people in service can expect to punch above their weight on earnings, of which neither the number of people benefitting nor the size of their windfall is easily quantifiable. It's highly likely but yet again not quantifiable, that the majority end up with a similar income that they would have earned if 100% salaried.

 

Taking out the 'it's our culture', or 'it's as it always has been' elements of the equation, it is clear that there are massive uncertainties in when to do it, how to do it, how much, inland revenue assumptions, cultural considerations, bad feeling, and so on, that more logical consideration ought to be given to the perceived real benefits of tipping culture compared with the negatives.

 

There are many illogical practices in the world, and there will always be somebody to defend or challenge them, but many do change (slavery, apartheid, child labour and so on) where those in favour of retaining the status quo sincerely believed that their way was the right way.

[ontheweb]

3 hours ago, Peter Lanky said:

After 20 pages of comments, I can still see nothing in favour of tipping (in general rather than just cruises), other than that a few people in service can expect to punch above their weight on earnings, of which neither the number of people benefitting nor the size of their windfall is easily quantifiable. It's highly likely but yet again not quantifiable, that the majority end up with a similar income that they would have earned if 100% salaried.

 

Taking out the 'it's our culture', or 'it's as it always has been' elements of the equation, it is clear that there are massive uncertainties in when to do it, how to do it, how much, inland revenue assumptions, cultural considerations, bad feeling, and so on, that more logical consideration ought to be given to the perceived real benefits of tipping culture compared with the negatives.

 

There are many illogical practices in the world, and there will always be somebody to defend or challenge them, but many do change (slavery, apartheid, child labour and so on) where those in favour of retaining the status quo sincerely believed that their way was the right way.

Are you really comparing tipping to child slavery, apartheid and child labor?

[Peter Lanky]

1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

Are you really comparing tipping to child slavery, apartheid and child labor?

At the time they existed, they were considered 'normal', so yes I am. The American civil war was fought because the southern states were so convinced that slavery was normal that they were prepared to fight for it. During WW2 US troops were stationed in England and many believed so strongly in Apartheid that they tried to force the British to segregate black soldiers, much to the shock of the locals. In Britain, our middle classes had such a belief in child labour (slavery in effect) that they sincerely believed they were doing them a favour by morally educating them, mainly by bible bashing.

 

If you want a more recent example, when I first started work, it was normal to pay women less for doing exactly the same job, but that was considered wrong and the practice has been ended in the UK and probably many other places.

 

It's not the severity of the issue that I'm comparing but the 'belief' in them by so many people.

 

Hopefully in another 100 years time, historians will look back on tipping and think 'Did people really do that?'.

Edited February 26, 2022 by Peter Lanky

[ilikeanswers]

6 hours ago, Peter Lanky said:

it is clear that there are massive uncertainties in when to do it, how to do it, how much, inland revenue assumptions, cultural considerations, bad feeling, and so on,

 

I posted I tip 20% in USA restaurants and I get one response saying I tip too much and another response saying I am calculating it all wrong 😂. You have to give credit that cruise lines just give you an amount to pay so you don't have to figure out what the going rate is. 

[Peter Lanky]

LGW59. You must stop laughing so much; you'll do yourself an injury. 😉

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, Peter Lanky said:

At the time they existed, they were considered 'normal', so yes I am. The American civil war was fought because the southern states were so convinced that slavery was normal that they were prepared to fight for it. During WW2 US troops were stationed in England and many believed so strongly in Apartheid that they tried to force the British to segregate black soldiers, much to the shock of the locals. In Britain, our middle classes had such a belief in child labour (slavery in effect) that they sincerely believed they were doing them a favour by morally educating them, mainly by bible bashing.

 

If you want a more recent example, when I first started work, it was normal to pay women less for doing exactly the same job, but that was considered wrong and the practice has been ended in the UK and probably many other places.

 

It's not the severity of the issue that I'm comparing but the 'belief' in them by so many people.

 

Hopefully in another 100 years time, historians will look back on tipping and think 'Did people really do that?'.

You truly are fanatical when it comes to the subject of tipping. 

[KBs mum]

Extraordinary that some are so embedded in the idea of tipping that they can't comprehend that tips as pay is considered unusual and in some cases unfair to the employee by many, and that as most employees don't rely on tips, there's no reason for any to. 

 

What is noticeable is the differing questions asked regarding tipping when abroad, eg. 

 

USA person 'how much?' 

UK/Aus/NZ person 'do I need to tip?, if so in which circumstances and how much?' 

[Peter Lanky]

1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

You truly are fanatical when it comes to the subject of tipping. 

I think the correct word is 'committed'.

[navybankerteacher]

3 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

I think the correct word is 'committed'.

Perhaps, but certainly fanatical as well.

[Peter Lanky]

5 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

Perhaps, but certainly fanatical as well.

Is that because my last comment was a little too close to home for some?

[navybankerteacher]

3 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

Is that because my last comment was a little too close to home for some?

No - it is because you seem unable to understand (or tolerate) the business plans of cruise lines or the compensation plans of others which differ from yours.

[JRG]

6 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

Is that because my last comment was a little too close to home for some?

 

Not at all.    Some of us grew up on Benny Hill. 

(not to be confused with Salisbury Hill or any other Hill)

 

Not to put too fine a tip on it but....

 

It's a long way from Tipperary,   but its a longer way to TipperExit.

 

 

Edited February 26, 2022 by JRG

[KBs mum]

1 minute ago, navybankerteacher said:

No - it is because you seem unable to understand (or tolerate) the business plans of cruise lines or the compensation plans of others which differ from yours.

Some cruise lines are non tipping, it seems to work OK. 

 

We understand tip based pay, Some are putting forward a case against. Some are putting forward the case for. This is how discussion and debate works. 

[LGW59]

21 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

Is that because my last comment was a little too close to home for some?

"committed" yes perhaps that may help you for a bit...

[Peter Lanky]

39 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

No - it is because you seem unable to understand (or tolerate) the business plans of cruise lines or the compensation plans of others which differ from yours.

I don't hold with business plans that have the main principle of deceiving the customer as the principal driver. In reality there are many people who book a holiday in good faith who are not as savvy about tricks of the trade as people who comment on this forum are, who have had their holiday plans ruined because they paid for a trip and allowed sufficient budget for their spending, only to be presented with a huge bill for gratuities that they were never expecting, which meant they had very little left for anything else.

 

In fact when I first went on an organised tour about 10 years ago (not a cruise) as opposed to making my own arrangements, I was shocked to be presented with an envelope and a breakdown of 'recommended gratuities' for the driver and guide, worded in such a way as to suggest it was mandatory , which if all 52 people on the coach had paid would have given them over £2,000 each! This would produce great stress for some people, but my envelope went in the dustbin where it belonged.

[Peter Lanky]

Just to move the conversation on a little, what is the purpose of hotel porters or bell people as you call them in the US? I arrive at a hotel having just carried my luggage with no problem half way around the world, so why on earth do I need somebody to take my luggage to my room and hold out their hand at the end of it? It may be a cute little tradition from the days when the only travellers were the very wealthy who liked to ensure their superiority over the working class, but surely that tradition belongs in a museum.

 

I don't know about these expensive hotels in London as I never go there, but none of the hotels I visit at home do this, because of course it's completely unnecessary. I'm sure there are a few cases where people struggle, but I'm sure the hotels would help without question in these cases.

[ldubs]

I cannot help but think that the number of people so out of touch they would be surprised that a gratuity is added on cruise ships must be so small as to be meaningless.  Claiming trickery is not a compelling argument.  

 

I listen to the fair wage argument.  I'm not convinced that those proposing that would be able to define what a "fair" wage should be for a server in a restaurant much less cruise ship staff.   I am concerned that someone's concept of a "fair" wage would result in lower pay than currently earned by motivated restnt staff.    

[onlyslightlymad]

2 minutes ago, ldubs said:

I cannot help but think that the number of people so out of touch they would be surprised that a gratuity is added on cruise ships must be so small as to be meaningless.  Claiming trickery is not a compelling argument.  

 

I listen to the fair wage argument.  I'm not convinced that those proposing that would be able to define what a "fair" wage should be for a server in a restaurant much less cruise ship staff.   I am concerned that someone's concept of a "fair" wage would result in lower pay than currently earned by motivated restnt staff.    

It's fairly easy to solve the problem.  If the service charge added to the bill is 20%, up the wages by 20% and up the prices in the restaurant by 20%.  Problem solved.  Less stress for everyone concerned, more transparency and less opportunity for exploitation and harassment.

[ldubs]

3 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

I posted I tip 20% in USA restaurants and I get one response saying I tip too much and another response saying I am calculating it all wrong 😂. You have to give credit that cruise lines just give you an amount to pay so you don't have to figure out what the going rate is. 

 

I can understand someone unfamiliar with the tipping custom at our restnt's would be confused or uncomfortable.   I think I can help.  Don't overthink it.  Just add the 15% to 20% to the total on the tab.  The difference it makes including vs excluding tax is of no consequence.  

 

 

[Peter Lanky]

6 minutes ago, ldubs said:

I cannot help but think that the number of people so out of touch they would be surprised that a gratuity is added on cruise ships must be so small as to be meaningless.  Claiming trickery is not a compelling argument.  

 

I listen to the fair wage argument.  I'm not convinced that those proposing that would be able to define what a "fair" wage should be for a server in a restaurant much less cruise ship staff.   I am concerned that someone's concept of a "fair" wage would result in lower pay than currently earned by motivated restnt staff.    

I have not made this up. If you are from the US, is is fair to assume that you will be familiar with the concept of gratuities, be they automatic add-ons or discretionary. For people in other countries who are not used to such practices, how are they going to know that this practice occurs? Not everyone reads the fine print, even more so when they are not looking for something in the first place. The glossy brochures don't exactly make an effort to shout it from the rooftops. My coach tour didn't mention it so why would a cruise be any different?

[ldubs]

3 minutes ago, onlyslightlymad said:

It's fairly easy to solve the problem.  If the service charge added to the bill is 20%, up the wages by 20% and up the prices in the restaurant by 20%.  Problem solved.  Less stress for everyone concerned, more transparency and less opportunity for exploitation and harassment.

 

That approach would result in a decrease in take home pay.   Many restauranteurs indicate menu prices would need to increase at least 30% to keep staff whole.   

 

The thing is, we feel no stress following our tipping custom.   I would not presume to ask a country to change their custom because I am uncomfortable or don't agree with it.    

[navybankerteacher]

6 minutes ago, onlyslightlymad said:

It's fairly easy to solve the problem.  If the service charge added to the bill is 20%, up the wages by 20% and up the prices in the restaurant by 20%.  Problem solved.  Less stress for everyone concerned, more transparency and less opportunity for exploitation and harassment.

And zero opportunity to give thoughtful, helpful waiters more compensation than lazy,  careless, or discourteous ones.