Baltic cruises

[Ardennais]

Years ago I had a Norway cruise booked and just after paying the final balance, P&O changed 2 of the 4 ports. I was really annoyed as Flam was dropped and I really wanted to go there as did my parents. In fact I had 3 cabins booked. My TA tried to get some additional OBC for us, and for others that had also booked the same cruise but P&O were unwilling to move at all. I thought then that a 50% change was a major change. 

[Fionboard]

Just be patient and don't panic. This situation is only about a week old and no Baltic cruises for a few weeks yet. All will be resolved. Just think about the poor Ukrainians and stand with them!

[majortom10]

Just to put a perspective on P&O thinking we had a cruise booked once on Oriana. They cut the cruise from 16 nt to 15nt and every port of call was changed to a different day, same ports of call just different day. The reason was Oriana was due to go in to dry dock at end of cruise and it had to be brought forward by a day hence the reduction in length of cruise. All P&O initially offered was that the money already paid for 1nt reduction  in length would be refunded to us in OBC. I said that due to reduction in length of cruise and every port of call changed to a different day made it a significant change so wanted a full refund in monies paid. Initially they said then no and they then eventually after I had said as per contract I had paid in full in cash I should get 1nt reduction refunded in cash they agreed. After further pushing they finally agreed that it was a significant change and I could have a full refund. One thing for certain is P&O certainly do not make things easy and you have to be very persistent and they only agreed a full refund because I threatened taking action in Small Claims court.

 

 

 

Edited March 2, 2022 by majortom10

[Bazrat]

2 hours ago, Cruiseabc12345 said:

I never said I wanted a refund without contacting P&O. I have been unable to get information from P&O. I have read here about St Petersburg being removed from the Baltic cruises but cannot get that information from P&O hence I asked for advice here. Please do not be rude. I was simply asking a question 

I was not being rude I resent that accusation, I was just trying to understand why you would try to get information from others who would not have the relevant information rather that contact P&O.

[Selbourne]

1 hour ago, Ardennais said:

Years ago I had a Norway cruise booked and just after paying the final balance, P&O changed 2 of the 4 ports. I was really annoyed as Flam was dropped and I really wanted to go there as did my parents. In fact I had 3 cabins booked. My TA tried to get some additional OBC for us, and for others that had also booked the same cruise but P&O were unwilling to move at all. I thought then that a 50% change was a major change. 

Exactly the same happened to us (possibly the same cruise?) when the two planned fjords (Flaam and Olden, from memory) were replaced with coastal ports, meaning that it was a fjord cruise with no proper fjords at all. P&O dug their heals in and would not accept that it was a material change which, of course, it was. After several back and forth letters I lost my patience and said that I would take legal action, at which point they caved in and offered compensation via a non-disclosure agreement which, as Harry says, is their modus operandi, which seems ludicrous to me. As many others have said, the service levels on the P&O ships are exemplary but this is in stark contrast with their land based customer service, which is absolutely dire. 

[gumshoe958]

Legally, P&O could presumably claim force majeure to avoid having to refund in this case.

 

Whether they would is a different matter. A more customer friendly approach seems the better option.

[Kajojato]

6 hours ago, tring said:

When Fred announced at the end of last week that his Baltic Itinerary for May at the end of last week was being modified and gave the replacement port calls for SPB, he also gave £150pp OBS to everyone.  I wonder if P&O will follow Fred and Saga with an extra perk?  It would be a nice gesture if they do.

 

I have also seen a report of a Celebrity cruise having it's new itinerary published today, so perhaps all the RCI brands have published them. 

 

 

 

 

 

.In response to my post, of yesterday, re revised itinerates, from Ambassador, and confusing t*cs. over refunds,  it would appear from the above postings, that other cruise lines are offering refunds....whereas I have been given a definite NO I... received a call from the T/A.  today who contacted Ambassador, with revised  Itinerary, as I thought just put in 1 extra port, and overnight at Stockholm, (counts as 2) , they said definitely no refund offered only a transfer to another cruise. and 4 days to make up my mind., As the change from SP is only counted as 1 port. its not counted as a major change. according to the T&Cs..and .I`ve paid in full. This Cruise line has just 1 ship, and this is its maiden year,  so single cabins are fully booked, looks like no alternative but to accept....not very happy. 

[Ardennais]

1 hour ago, Selbourne said:

Exactly the same happened to us (possibly the same cruise?) when the two planned fjords (Flaam and Olden, from memory) were replaced with coastal ports, meaning that it was a fjord cruise with no proper fjords at all. P&O dug their heals in and would not accept that it was a material change which, of course, it was. After several back and forth letters I lost my patience and said that I would take legal action, at which point they caved in and offered compensation via a non-disclosure agreement which, as Harry says, is their modus operandi, which seems ludicrous to me. As many others have said, the service levels on the P&O ships are exemplary but this is in stark contrast with their land based customer service, which is absolutely dire. 

It could well have been the same one. The replacements were Andalsnes and Alesund and I have to say that we enjoyed both places immensely. But coupled with Stavanger and Bergen, it wasn’t a fjord cruise really. My parents did get to visit Flam and Olden with us a few years later! 

[terrierjohn]

39 minutes ago, Kajojato said:

 

 

 

 

.In response to my post, of yesterday, re revised itinerates, from Ambassador, and confusing t*cs. over refunds,  it would appear from the above postings, that other cruise lines are offering refunds....whereas I have been given a definite NO I... received a call from the T/A.  today who contacted Ambassador, with revised  Itinerary, as I thought just put in 1 extra port, and overnight at Stockholm, (counts as 2) , they said definitely no refund offered only a transfer to another cruise. and 4 days to make up my mind., As the change from SP is only counted as 1 port. its not counted as a major change. according to the T&Cs..and .I`ve paid in full. This Cruise line has just 1 ship, and this is its maiden year,  so single cabins are fully booked, looks like no alternative but to accept....not very happy. 

I wouldn't worry about it too much, unless Putin has a change of heart, unlikely since he hasnt got one, or one his inner circle bumps him off, equally unlikely, then I imagine SPB will be off the cruise itineraries for many years to come.

Edited March 2, 2022 by terrierjohn

[tring]

1 hour ago, Kajojato said:

 

 

 

 

.In response to my post, of yesterday, re revised itinerates, from Ambassador, and confusing t*cs. over refunds,  it would appear from the above postings, that other cruise lines are offering refunds....whereas I have been given a definite NO I... received a call from the T/A.  today who contacted Ambassador, with revised  Itinerary, as I thought just put in 1 extra port, and overnight at Stockholm, (counts as 2) , they said definitely no refund offered only a transfer to another cruise. and 4 days to make up my mind., As the change from SP is only counted as 1 port. its not counted as a major change. according to the T&Cs..and .I`ve paid in full. This Cruise line has just 1 ship, and this is its maiden year,  so single cabins are fully booked, looks like no alternative but to accept....not very happy. 

 

You have probably been given a good alternative as normally it is unlikely you would be able to change to another cruise after balance payment date according to T&C's.  I have just seen the itineraries and would appear the two days in SPB were less than 25% of the overall itinerary so not a vast proportion, especially if there are decent alternatives to replace the port and there are some really good cruise ports in The Baltic.  TBH at this stage I would also tend to agree with John that SPB will be off cruise itineraries for many years to come. 

 

Legally, since 2018, a holiday company can only make a change if it is considered to be insignificant, (this contrasts with the legislation prior to 2018, when they were able to make any change which was not considered significant, and which is a different threshold).  Hence, it is quite possible a court could find in your favour and say you should be offered a refund, especially if St Petersburg was in the original title of your cruise (I do not know if it was).  However, there is still a risk that you would not win a court case as it does just depend how it goes on the day, so a lot to gamble if you end up loosing all your cash.  DH spent a working life in a career which included a lot of legal work in consumer protection and he says it is not something he would risk himself, if the alternative was loosing the full cost of a cruise. 

 

I do see that one person has said above that Sage were allowing a refund of a deposit (not full payment), but I have not seen anyone else saying they were allowed a refund.  Sometimes Americans can get a refund of deposits, but they have different T&C's to what we have.

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by tring

[Selbourne]

8 hours ago, Ardennais said:

It could well have been the same one. The replacements were Andalsnes and Alesund and I have to say that we enjoyed both places immensely. But coupled with Stavanger and Bergen, it wasn’t a fjord cruise really. My parents did get to visit Flam and Olden with us a few years later! 

That’s the one. As you say, with those four ports it wasn’t a fjord cruise anymore. We still went (with the compensation) and have done a couple of ‘proper’ fjords cruises since.

 

It will be interesting to see how they handle the St Petersburg issue, as whilst it’s only one port, it’s generally the highlight of a Baltic cruise and the main motivation for many booking one. We have been a few times (and loved it) so replacing it with two other ports wouldn’t be a problem for us, but I could understand anyone doing a ‘one off’ Baltic cruise would probably want to cancel and get a refund in order that they could book again in the future when SPB is back on the itineraries. 

[wowzz]

7 hours ago, tring said:

I do see that one person has said above that Sage were allowing a refund of a deposit (not full payment), but I have not seen anyone else saying they were allowed a refund.

That would have been me. 

As our cruise is not until September, we had only paid the deposit, so do not know what the Saga position wouid have been if full payment had been made.

[wowzz]

2 minutes ago, Selbourne said:

Baltic cruise would probably want to cancel and get a refund in order that they could book again in the future when SPB is back on the itineraries. 

Which might incur a long, long wait.

[Son of Anarchy]

10 minutes ago, wowzz said:

Which might incur a long, long wait.

Rather like a refund from P&O...

[Selbourne]

8 minutes ago, wowzz said:

Which might incur a long, long wait.

Possibly, but worth the wait though as it’s a stunning city. I am hoping that some of those with access to Putin quickly realise (if they haven’t already) that he needs to be removed from office in order to avoid their country imploding under the weight of all the sanctions and isolation. 

[Josy1953]

44 minutes ago, Selbourne said:

Possibly, but worth the wait though as it’s a stunning city. I am hoping that some of those with access to Putin quickly realise (if they haven’t already) that he needs to be removed from office in order to avoid their country imploding under the weight of all the sanctions and isolation. 

We have been fortunate enough to visit SPB 3 times and I agree that it is a stunning city and in more normal times I would say to anyone considering a Baltics cruise to go for it.  I hate what is happening in Ukraine and I am praying for an early solution.  We were fortunate enough to visit Kiev when we took a land tour in the USSR and everytime I see how it is being destroyed I get upset at the thought of how it is being destroyed. 🙏

[tring]

1 hour ago, wowzz said:

That would have been me. 

As our cruise is not until September, we had only paid the deposit, so do not know what the Saga position wouid have been if full payment had been made.

 

Quite, and although I am not sure, I think your cruise had the name St. Petersburg in the title, which would stronger case as well.

 

Half way through this past week, we could see a possibility of the situation calming, but even a few days after that we can easily see that this can go on a very long time.  I do not even feel confident now that our late May cruise will go ahead in any form.  Concerns about safety in the wider Baltic, availability of fuel as well as dear old covid are all potential problems that could be encountered - who knows.

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by tring

[Host Sharon]

On 2/26/2022 at 5:35 PM, Denarius said:

I agree with your latter points. Having been to St Petersburg once I have no particular wish to go there again. I have seen the set piece sites and wandering around on your own is not possible without a personal Russian visa. I am sailing to the Baltic with Saga this Summer on a cruise chosen specifically beacause it did not visit St Petersburg!

See you on board I hope.

[twotravellersLondon]

11 hours ago, Kajojato said:

 

 

 

 

.In response to my post, of yesterday, re revised itinerates, from Ambassador, and confusing t*cs. over refunds,  it would appear from the above postings, that other cruise lines are offering refunds....whereas I have been given a definite NO I... received a call from the T/A.  today who contacted Ambassador, with revised  Itinerary, as I thought just put in 1 extra port, and overnight at Stockholm, (counts as 2) , they said definitely no refund offered only a transfer to another cruise. and 4 days to make up my mind., As the change from SP is only counted as 1 port. its not counted as a major change. according to the T&Cs..and .I`ve paid in full. This Cruise line has just 1 ship, and this is its maiden year,  so single cabins are fully booked, looks like no alternative but to accept....not very happy. 

 

You have already have some good advice. However, as someone whose career involved more experience of legalities than I would like...

 

The fact is that; when you bought the cruise you entered into a contract. As part of that contract you agreed that a significant change of itinerary would be missing out more than one major port for cruises of 16 nights and under. 

 

The T&Cs of all UK cruise lines are essentially the same.

 

Having agreed and signed a legally binding contract with conditions which are similar across the UK cruise industry, any solicitor is likely, in a free initial interview, to advise that you have no grounds for court action. 

 

If you go ahead on your own to the small claims court, depending on how much you're claiming, it could well cost you £115 just to enter your claim. If it comes to a hearing, you may well be asked to pay more. The judge would look at the T&Cs that you agreed to as part of the contract and... very likely... you would lose. No jury, no Kavanagh QC, no heroic pleas... just a plain simple decision made by a judge in his/her room or in an empty court. And... no refund.

 

Alternatively, you would need to take on a much bigger case and argue that the T&Cs use by the UK cruise industry are wrong. For that you need a solicitor, a barrister and buckets and buckets full of cash. The cruise line industry would be professionally represented....probably by a whole expert legal team... as this would be a "test case." If you lost... you would pay their fees and expenses as well as your own. It's not unknown for disputes about a few hundred pounds to carry on for years and end up costing hundreds of thousands in legal fees... while the plaintive, you, would get older, poorer but wiser.

 

But what would happen if you won? Well you would still lose money. If there was a judgement in your favour and if you were awarded costs... these would have to be negotiated using separate firms of cost solicitors and the opposition would end up paying 60% to 80% of what you had shelled on for your own solicitors and barrister. So if you spent about £2,500 on your cruise, went to court spent the very modest sum of £10,000 and "won" after two or three years and then wanted to claim your legal costs from the cruise company... you would, after further expense, receive between £2,000 and £4,000 less that you had spent. A pyrrhic victory.

 

If I was in your situation... I would be to come to an amicable agreement or accept the offer or simply walk away and move on. Life is just too short to waste it on aggro.

[Host Sharon]

On 2/28/2022 at 8:32 PM, jeanlyon said:

We have done a Black Sea cruise and the main enjoyment was Odessa.  We went into Constanta, but not to be recommended.   So now that Crimea is in Russian hands, not much point in the Black Sea.

But you are writing off Georgia, the northern Turkish coast and Bulgarian ports like Nessebur, all of which are on my Saga cruise this spring - hopefully!!

[madmacs]

Apart from any safety concerns, I cannot morally visit Russia no matter how wonderful is St Petersburg (one downside it is from where Putin and most of his inner circle come). We have decided to cancel our Baltic cruise and move to one in the Med. Frankly any small inconvenience to us is insignificant compered to the suffering of the Ukranian people. I stayed in Odessa many years ago and it is a beautiful city and the people I met were wonderful. 

 

Please be grateful we live in a free democratic country and have choices about most things.

 

[Cruiseabc12345]

13 hours ago, tring said:

 

You have probably been given a good alternative as normally it is unlikely you would be able to change to another cruise after balance payment date according to T&C's.  I have just seen the itineraries and would appear the two days in SPB were less than 25% of the overall itinerary so not a vast proportion, especially if there are decent alternatives to replace the port and there are some really good cruise ports in The Baltic.  TBH at this stage I would also tend to agree with John that SPB will be off cruise itineraries for many years to come. 

 

Legally, since 2018, a holiday company can only make a change if it is considered to be insignificant, (this contrasts with the legislation prior to 2018, when they were able to make any change which was not considered significant, and which is a different threshold).  Hence, it is quite possible a court could find in your favour and say you should be offered a refund, especially if St Petersburg was in the original title of your cruise (I do not know if it was).  However, there is still a risk that you would not win a court case as it does just depend how it goes on the day, so a lot to gamble if you end up loosing all your cash.  DH spent a working life in a career which included a lot of legal work in consumer protection and he says it is not something he would risk himself, if the alternative was loosing the full cost of a cruise. 

 

I do see that one person has said above that Sage were allowing a refund of a deposit (not full payment), but I have not seen anyone else saying they were allowed a refund.  Sometimes Americans can get a refund of deposits, but they have different T&C's to what we have.

 

Do you happen to know what that 2018 legislation is called please? Many thanks. It does seem a pity so many people here have had to fight to get their money back but having said that every cruise company is in business to make money to be fair to them also

[Cruiseabc12345]

2 hours ago, madmacs said:

Apart from any safety concerns, I cannot morally visit Russia no matter how wonderful is St Petersburg (one downside it is from where Putin and most of his inner circle come). We have decided to cancel our Baltic cruise and move to one in the Med. Frankly any small inconvenience to us is insignificant compered to the suffering of the Ukranian people. I stayed in Odessa many years ago and it is a beautiful city and the people I met were wonderful. 

 

Please be grateful we live in a free democratic country and have choices about most things.

 

Isn't that the truth. The scenes in Ukraine and the border countries would break your heart. I see your point re: visiting St Petersburg however so many Russians are involved with tourism etc and are suffering because of Putin's actions. Many Russians are innocent in all this ... there's just so much suffering 

[Britboys]

Whilst I appreciate how disappointing it is to miss St Petersburg for those who haven't been there, from P&O's point of view, it is only one port in a two-week or so cruise. The booking conditions state that itineraries may be amended for operational reasons and understandably, P&O will say that this change is beyond their control and is being taken with the safety of pax in mind.

Unfortunately I can't see any way they are likely to offer full refunds.

[gumshoe958]

13 hours ago, tring said:

Legally, since 2018, a holiday company can only make a change if it is considered to be insignificant, (this contrasts with the legislation prior to 2018, when they were able to make any change which was not considered significant, and which is a different threshold).  Hence, it is quite possible a court could find in your favour and say you should be offered a refund, especially if St Petersburg was in the original title of your cruise (I do not know if it was).  

 

P&O could just claim force majeure and would undoubtedly win.

 

Definition: unforeseeable circumstances that prevent someone from fulfilling a contract.