Viking Management Issue

[Denny01]

I realize this forum is for Viking Ocean cruises, but there is only a Viking River Roll Call forum that is more limited to specific itineraries, so I’ll post this here to inform the general Viking community. And hope the monitors don't see this as incorrect.

 

The Viking Mississippi ship launch has slid - again. Earlier, Mississippi itineraries had been canceled in June/July, and I just got an email that our 6 Aug cruise New Orleans to St Paul was canceled. This is barely 2 weeks prior. At least 2 more following cruises are also canceled. More to follow? No idea.

 

Offered a 110% voucher, but I’ve been through this too many times so will minimize leaving funds with Viking. I understand the Pandemic ‘20 and ‘21 cancelations, and I’d used those vouchers to book a Great Lakes B2B on the new Expedition ship. Months+ after booking, I read on CruiseCritic that this was considered a cruise from a Canadian port ending in Canada, not allowed, even though one itinerary needed and the next started in Milwaukee. I contacted Viking and they said yup, my 2 cruises weren’t allowed. They didn’t contact me, I informed them. So I moved over to the Mississippi itinerary using Lots of Voucher money.

 

 

And here it ends. I’m taking all the refund I can get, and will get a voucher for what was tied up prior. My TA worked it and helped out.

 

But you all realize what is impacted with a cancelation just 2 weeks prior.

 

I fully understand losing a Euro River cruise in ‘20 and an Ocean cruise in ’21, but booking a B2B that is not allowed, followed by a months-long build slide and canceling this one 2 weeks prior, I’ll use the Vouchers and then find another Line.

 

We had enjoyed our Viking cruises in the past and am not the type to complain, but there are too many other Lines, river and ocean that provide similar services, and maybe understand basic itinerary rules, and don’t set up bookings close to apparent high risk build dates that can adversely impact customers’ vacations.

 

Enough complaining. I’ll probably find a nice wine cruise of an established itinerary in France for next year and that will be that.

 

Den

[Heidi13]

Your post title indicates you may not understand the shipowner/shipyard dynamics of building a new ship, completing the sea trials, owner acceptance trials and once accepted by the owner, preparing it for revenue service.

 

However, I will initially respond and provide information regarding the B2B cruises issue on the Great Lakes. Most American cruise pax are aware of the PVSA, but Canada, like most maritime nations, also has Cabotage Laws (Coasting Trade Act) that prevent foreign-flag tonnage from engaging in the domestic pax and cargo trades.

 

While it does permit some exceptions, the Act states foreign-flag tonnage cannot transport a passenger from 1 port in Canada to another port in Canada. The Act couldn't care less about how many cruises the pax booked, or even how long the cruise is, it only considers which port you embarked and which port you disembark. The Great Lakes has special operating rules and I note this is a new operational area for Viking, so yes, the Viking management were caught unawares, but in their defense, the Coasting Trade Act, with application on the Great Lakes, is not well known. I note, foreign flag ships transport pax R/T from Vancouver and have done so, for over 40 years.

 

With respect to the new Mississippi tonnage being late. Viking management have zero control over the actual building of the ship. At the present time, they don't even own the ship, as it is owned by the shipyard. The newbuild contract will have penalty clauses for delays, but it will also include a Force Majeure, which the shipyard can most likely use in these circumstances.

 

Post COVID, supply chain issues are prevalent in many industries - I waited over 8 months for Ford to receive the parts to build my truck and many customers wait for a year to receive appliances. They can't find sufficient workers, parts are stuck on ships anchored off the West Coast, they can't find truck drivers to deliver cargoes, etc. When building a ship, the owner is held hostage by the shipyard, as they hold all the cards. Sure, the owner's representatives on site can identify when a build is not going well, but they don't know what labour resources are available and when parts are scheduled to arrive. The shipowner can only make decisions when they are provided definitive updates by the shipyard, and most of them are not overly forthcoming in providing accurate updates. Shipyards will often wait until the last second before officially advising the owner the build is late.

 

It is also Viking's first build contract with this yard, so they have no prior experience with them, as they have with Fincantieri and the yards for the river ships.

 

Therefore, Viking management can only advise the customer once they receive official notification from the yard that the build is late.

 

In addition to many years as a ship's Master, I also managed one of our local shipyards for 5-years, so also know a little about this part of the industry.

[Jim Avery]

Andy I will add that what I understand from a river trade pub is that Edison Chouest will be the owner/operator of the Mississippi.  With a lease agreement with Viking.  American crewed and operated.  Sure to be a very different experience from the other Viking products.  Time will tell for sure...

[OnTheJourney]

Andy..as always a well thought-out and very informative post!  

[Heidi13]

42 minutes ago, Jim Avery said:

Andy I will add that what I understand from a river trade pub is that Edison Chouest will be the owner/operator of the Mississippi.  With a lease agreement with Viking.  American crewed and operated.  Sure to be a very different experience from the other Viking products.  Time will tell for sure...

 

Jim,

 

That's also my understanding of the arrangement. Due to the requirements of the PVSA, Viking are little more than sales agents, as the ship must be built, owned, operated and crewed by Americans.

 

 

[duquephart]

So ----- Viking will not be able to get away with bilge coolie wages for service staff?

[WNcruiser]

Den,

 

while the “usuals” will defend Viking right or wrong, I definitely sympathize with you. There is no way you should be allowed to book a cruise that is illegal and violates the PVSA. That is on Viking. 
 

Yes, the building of the ship is out of control of Viking. Cancelling two weeks before departure is not acceptable and they must have known it wasn’t going to happen. I don’t blame you one bit for your rant. Viking is supposed to better than this. 

[Heidi13]

6 minutes ago, WNcruiser said:

Den,

 

while the “usuals” will defend Viking right or wrong, I definitely sympathize with you. There is no way you should be allowed to book a cruise that is illegal and violates the PVSA. That is on Viking. 
 

Yes, the building of the ship is out of control of Viking. Cancelling two weeks before departure is not acceptable and they must have known it wasn’t going to happen. I don’t blame you one bit for your rant. Viking is supposed to better than this. 

 

The PVSA is American legislation that does not apply in Canada, the Canadian Cabotage Act is the Coasting Trade Act. While Viking will accept responsibility, the fault actually lies with the ship manager Wilhelmsen Ship Management, who manage the deck, engineering and regulatory compliance. The ship managers should have advised Viking they could not accept B2B bookings that embarked/disembarked in Canada.

 

Clearly you have never managed a shipyard, or been an owner's representative in a yard.

 

As the owner's representative, you can suspect the ship is late and apply pressure to the shipyard, but the shipyard will only confirm delays when they are ready. I have experience where the shipyard only confirmed a delay, 3-days before departure.

 

How about the shipyard that was building 3-newbuilds and was also bidding on 2 very lucrative ship conversions for the same owner. The owner's representative speculated the first newbuild was delayed for a couple of months, but the shipyard continuously denied they would be late. Day after the shipyard received contracts for the conversions, they advised the owner the first newbuilt was 3 months late. Probably about 1-month before delivery.

 

Lots of games played in this industry.

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, WNcruiser said:

There is no way you should be allowed to book a cruise that is illegal and violates the PVSA.

As Andy has mentioned, it is the CTA, not the PVSA, but even so, virtually every cruise line out there will accept B2B or more than 2 cruises booked together that violate the PVSA, and it is not until the compliance department reviews the booking (sometimes months later) that they will notify the passenger that one or more of the cruise segments needs to be cancelled.  Viking is not alone in this.

 

Also as Andy says, there is a "middleman" between the shipyard and Viking, and this middleman is the one who actually owns the ship.  The other aspect is whether or not this is a shipyard issue, or a crewing issue.  As NCL's Pride of America has found out (again, after the lessons they should have learned in 2004 when we started US flag operations), you can't go out and hire crew today and have them on the ship tomorrow.  POA is operating with reduced restaurants and capacity due to shortage of crew.  Why is this?  Because under US flag, every single crew member must obtain a merchant mariner's credential (unlike foreign flag operations), which requires weeks of training, an FBI background check, drug testing, and documentation processing.  The USCG has been backed up in processing mariner's credentials ever since Covid started, and its not getting much better, and the FBI is also backed up on background checks.  So, without knowing whether the boat has been delivered from the shipyard to the owner, it could be that they are cancelling last minute due to required crew not getting credentials in time.

[Denny01]

Although I find the info @Heidi13 is providing on shipbuilding informative, and appreciate the time it took, the shiipbuilder is responsible to keep Viking informed of schedules and slips and Viking is the one responsible for planning on how to handle slips in contract.  Which is what many of us who have contracted with companies are responsible in doing. We dont need an endepth understanding of shipbuilding to understand Viking is the overall manager of this effort and providing the services they’ve contracted with their passenger customers.

 

Slides happen. We All understand that even with someone having work done on their home. But managing the impacts is the point. And I found the comments “Your post title indicates you may not understand the shipowner/shipyard dynamics” and especially “Clearly you have never managed a shipyard,” pointless and more than a bit condescending. the shipyard slips isnt the point, Viking’s not understanding Canadian Great Lakes cruising laws and waiting until 2 weeks prior to cancel a 2nd set of cruises indicates an error in management.

 

this is Not the end of the world, and I’ll disagree with the “Viking are little more than sales agents”. Viking wrote the contract with the shipbuilder And with the passenger customers and is responsible for managing any slips and issues with their builder to set realistic schedules as it slips, and manage their customers instead of waiting so late.

 

Something all of us can understand without being “experts” in the shipbuilding business. 

 

But thanks for the insight.

 

den

 

 

 

Edited July 24, 2022 by Denny01

[Heidi13]

56 minutes ago, Denny01 said:

Viking wrote the contract with the shipbuilder

 

 

That is not correct, the contracted Ship Managers - Wilhelmsen Ship Management, provide this service.

[chengkp75]

9 hours ago, Denny01 said:

this is Not the end of the world, and I’ll disagree with the “Viking are little more than sales agents”. Viking wrote the contract with the shipbuilder And with the passenger customers and is responsible for managing any slips and issues with their builder to set realistic schedules as it slips, and manage their customers instead of waiting so late.

No, as Andy says, Viking did not write the contract with the shipbuilder, they signed it with the shipowner, Edison Chouest.  Chouest signed the contract with the shipyard.  Viking does not, and will not own the ships at all.  Viking does not own the ship, and the actual owner has contracted with another company (Wilhelmsen) to crew it (so crew are not Viking employees), and maintain it, and operate it.  Not much left for Viking to do but sell cruises.

 

Let's take a non-maritime example.  A developer (Chouest) buys some land.  He is going to build a shopping mall there.  He contracts with a builder (shipyard) to build the mall.  Any delays are contractually between these two parties.  Now, you go to the developer and say, I want to lease a store (lease the ship) in your mall.  The developer tells you when the mall will be ready, and you set your grand opening for that date.  Now, a delay happens, and the builder (shipyard) informs the developer (shipowner) of the delays, but he is under no legal obligation to tell any potential lessees (Viking) about the delays, and in fact would not even talk to the lessees.  Now, is the developer (shipowner) under any responsibility to inform the lessees of a delay?  Morally, yes, but whether there is a contractual requirement is unknown.

 

As far as not knowing Canadian cabotage laws, the major cruise lines who have been operating in the US for decades, still make mistakes over the PVSA, and when the Viking Mississippi operation was first planned, Viking did not comprehend that they would not be allowed to build boats where they wanted (not sure how they thought they'd bring them across the Atlantic), nor did they understand they would need a fully US crew.  This is no different from when NCL started their US flag operation.  I was on the Pride of Aloha when she reflagged, and the NCL plan was to leave a certain number of foreign crew onboard to continue training the US crew.  They got a rude awakening when they were told that the minute the US flag went up the halyard, all foreign crew had to get off.

 

Even the US government does not understand the Jones Act/PVSA.  I worked a US flag, foreign built, RO/RO vessel for Crowley Maritime.  During the first Gulf War, we were placed under US government charter, carrying military supplies to Saudi.  Because we were foreign built, we were not Jones Act compliant, and were prohibited from loading cargo in one US port and discharging it in another US port.  However, the Military Sealift Command of the US Navy continued to attempt to book cargo from one US port to another.  This went on for a couple years.

 

Is this bad PR for Viking?  Yes.  Is it totally, their fault?  Nope.

[LunaSeaRetreat]

20 hours ago, Denny01 said:

I realize this forum is for Viking Ocean cruises, but there is only a Viking River Roll Call forum that is more limited to specific itineraries, so I’ll post this here to inform the general Viking community. And hope the monitors don't see this as incorrect.

 

The Viking Mississippi ship launch has slid - again. Earlier, Mississippi itineraries had been canceled in June/July, and I just got an email that our 6 Aug cruise New Orleans to St Paul was canceled. This is barely 2 weeks prior. At least 2 more following cruises are also canceled. More to follow? No idea.

 

Offered a 110% voucher, but I’ve been through this too many times so will minimize leaving funds with Viking. I understand the Pandemic ‘20 and ‘21 cancelations, and I’d used those vouchers to book a Great Lakes B2B on the new Expedition ship. Months+ after booking, I read on CruiseCritic that this was considered a cruise from a Canadian port ending in Canada, not allowed, even though one itinerary needed and the next started in Milwaukee. I contacted Viking and they said yup, my 2 cruises weren’t allowed. They didn’t contact me, I informed them. So I moved over to the Mississippi itinerary using Lots of Voucher money.

 

 

And here it ends. I’m taking all the refund I can get, and will get a voucher for what was tied up prior. My TA worked it and helped out.

 

But you all realize what is impacted with a cancelation just 2 weeks prior.

 

I fully understand losing a Euro River cruise in ‘20 and an Ocean cruise in ’21, but booking a B2B that is not allowed, followed by a months-long build slide and canceling this one 2 weeks prior, I’ll use the Vouchers and then find another Line.

 

We had enjoyed our Viking cruises in the past and am not the type to complain, but there are too many other Lines, river and ocean that provide similar services, and maybe understand basic itinerary rules, and don’t set up bookings close to apparent high risk build dates that can adversely impact customers’ vacations.

 

Enough complaining. I’ll probably find a nice wine cruise of an established itinerary in France for next year and that will be that.

 

Den

Den,

I'm so sorry that your cruise was cancelled after all the other disappointments.  I am getting ready to go on our first cruise in almost 2 1/2 years.  I can only imagine my disappointment if it was suddenly cancelled.  I'll be so relieved when all my Vouchers are finally used and I don't have to worry about finding something to book by a certain date.

Take care,

Cynthia

 

. 

[Denny01]

Well, after reading these ‘explanations’ that Viking is just a booking agent and not responsible at any level for their product, thats good to know……

 

Please Do Not post how wrong silly that statement is. I’m well aware Viking Is responsible for their cruises, status of the ships, dining fare and tours, even though they may not be the direct group providing that function.

 

When I had an issue with a tour and talked with the tour booking aboard some cruise ship, they didnt tell me ‘Sorry, thats a private company and we have nothing to do with it. Here is their email so you can talk with them.’ The Lines Managed the issue. 

 

Enough. Not looking for Viking to give me a few more bucks, or whatever. And realize sharing this was pointless.

 

den

[hutch1994]

19 hours ago, WNcruiser said:

Den,

 

while the “usuals” will defend Viking right or wrong, I definitely sympathize with you. There is no way you should be allowed to book a cruise that is illegal and violates the PVSA. That is on Viking. 
 

Yes, the building of the ship is out of control of Viking. Cancelling two weeks before departure is not acceptable and they must have known it wasn’t going to happen. I don’t blame you one bit for your rant. Viking is supposed to better than this. 

Viking should have been aware of the in's and out's of sailing on the North American waterways.  No excuse for not knowing and you better believe they knew their schedule was slipping on these summer cruises.

[hutch1994]

On 7/23/2022 at 11:12 AM, Denny01 said:

I realize this forum is for Viking Ocean cruises, but there is only a Viking River Roll Call forum that is more limited to specific itineraries, so I’ll post this here to inform the general Viking community. And hope the monitors don't see this as incorrect.

 

The Viking Mississippi ship launch has slid - again. Earlier, Mississippi itineraries had been canceled in June/July, and I just got an email that our 6 Aug cruise New Orleans to St Paul was canceled. This is barely 2 weeks prior. At least 2 more following cruises are also canceled. More to follow? No idea.

 

Offered a 110% voucher, but I’ve been through this too many times so will minimize leaving funds with Viking. I understand the Pandemic ‘20 and ‘21 cancelations, and I’d used those vouchers to book a Great Lakes B2B on the new Expedition ship. Months+ after booking, I read on CruiseCritic that this was considered a cruise from a Canadian port ending in Canada, not allowed, even though one itinerary needed and the next started in Milwaukee. I contacted Viking and they said yup, my 2 cruises weren’t allowed. They didn’t contact me, I informed them. So I moved over to the Mississippi itinerary using Lots of Voucher money.

 

 

And here it ends. I’m taking all the refund I can get, and will get a voucher for what was tied up prior. My TA worked it and helped out.

 

But you all realize what is impacted with a cancelation just 2 weeks prior.

 

I fully understand losing a Euro River cruise in ‘20 and an Ocean cruise in ’21, but booking a B2B that is not allowed, followed by a months-long build slide and canceling this one 2 weeks prior, I’ll use the Vouchers and then find another Line.

 

We had enjoyed our Viking cruises in the past and am not the type to complain, but there are too many other Lines, river and ocean that provide similar services, and maybe understand basic itinerary rules, and don’t set up bookings close to apparent high risk build dates that can adversely impact customers’ vacations.

 

Enough complaining. I’ll probably find a nice wine cruise of an established itinerary in France for next year and that will be that.

 

Den

Take the money and run.  Don't get caught up in the voucher trap.

[Heidi13]

I’m well aware Viking Is responsible for their cruises, status of the ships, dining fare and tours, even though they may not be the direct group providing that function.

 

Going back to my Project Management days, I again beg to differ. Since we pay our money to Viking, they are accountable to the customer, as they have the ultimate authority. However, responsibility is assigned to those that actually complete tasks, which in the Mississippi delays are any combination of the shipyard, ship owner and ship manager.

 

When I had an issue with a tour and talked with the tour booking aboard some cruise ship, they didnt tell me ‘Sorry, thats a private company and we have nothing to do with it. Here is their email so you can talk with them.’ The Lines Managed the issue. 

 

Based on your initial post, it appears Viking are dealing with the issue in a similar manner. Viking, since they are accountable to the customer, have contacted you, advising the ship is delayed and provided compensation options. They did not provide contact details and advise you to contact the parties who are responsible for the delays, specifically the shipyard, ship owner and/or ship manager. Viking accepted their accountability and dealt with the issue. Is 2-weeks notice of cancellation sufficient - we will never know what information was provided to Viking and at what time.

 

With combined experience of over 80 yrs in the industry, the Chief and I endeavour to answer questions and inform members how this industry works, with many posters on CC greatly appreciating the knowledge and experience we share. Clearly your mind is made up, so it's time for me to move on from this one.

Edited July 24, 2022 by Heidi13

[OnTheJourney]

Unfortunately, with all due respect and thanks to those with considerable experience and knowledge within the industry here like Andy, Cheng, and Jim, the average consumer - in the final analysis - will understandaby view these instances as yet more cancellations / delays, and such due to reasons beyond their control. There is more than a minor degree of consternation that exists in the current environment of all sorts of delays and canceled trips dating back to the beginning of the pandemic. Consumers are understandably disgruntled and so they will (again understandably) look to the cruise line as being at fault. Kind of like getting angry at the local appliance dealer because the dishwasher that was ordered last September didn't arrive until last week. Appliance dealer is not at fault due to the extensive backordering / supply chain disruptions as Andy already alluded to. For cruisers who have seen so many trips put on hold, it's just a tough pill to keep swallowing especially now that cruising has 'resumed' in a fairly big way. I appreciate the background info as to the cause of the particular problem dealt with in this thread. It's so easy to 'pass the buck' and point fingers. 

[CurlerRob]

7 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

Is 2-weeks notice of cancellation sufficient - we will never know what information was provided to Viking and at what time.

 

Andy, before you 'move on' 😁, could you correct me if I am wrong in a couple of thoughts regarding all of this?

 

For any newbuild, would Viking not have a full-time, on-site representative at the shipyard, experienced enough and knowledgeable enough to alert Viking management to the possibility / likelihood of a delay in delivery date or cost overruns? That's been routine for any of the very large projects that I have managed - I would never rely only on what a supplier tells me, or when they choose to tell me - and I would find it incredible that any cruise line wouldn't do the same.

 

Notwithstanding any of the very real issues that likely have affected the build, surely Viking would have been aware of the potential of a delay quite some time before they had to cancel the cruises? At bare minimum, once had to cancel the June trips, I would expect they had a more accurate revised delivery date for the Mississippi, and hence some insight at that time into the impact on the July / August cruises.
 

I raise the questions because, given what I've read here, I believe Viking is missing an opportunity to enhance their image and improve their client relations through better communications - in this case by providing earlier "heads-up" warnings when possible as opposed to 'communicating' by last-minute cancellations (which seems to be the norm in the industry).
 

I've had the (painful) experience of relying on my own informed judgement to advise clients that there was risk that a project would miss its deadline. As angry as they may have been then, it always proved to be the better course to have provided the earliest possible warning. If we were able to recover the project, that was fine - if it did slip, at least the clients had the opportunity to consider available mitigation with the maximum lead time.
 

I sense a bit of a similar issue brewing with the fall Orion Pacific cruise. Lots of uncertainty regarding access to Japan, Hong Kong, Vietnam and possibly even Oz and NZ - and lots of confusion and concern by pax. Obviously Viking is not in a position to be definitive about what will happen, but I don't see anything proactive in terms of keeping those pax advised - even if it's just to acknowledge the level of uncertainty and let them know that Viking understands their concerns and will communicate regularly.
 

Perhaps the cruise industry is somewhat unique in this respect - I welcome your thoughts ... thx, 🍺🥌

 

[philw1776]

Cruise Critic is at its best when informed, experienced industry experts post their insights here. Much appreciated. I had no clue.

[Heidi13]

11 hours ago, CurlerRob said:

 

Andy, before you 'move on' 😁, could you correct me if I am wrong in a couple of thoughts regarding all of this?

 

For any newbuild, would Viking not have a full-time, on-site representative at the shipyard, experienced enough and knowledgeable enough to alert Viking management to the possibility / likelihood of a delay in delivery date or cost overruns? That's been routine for any of the very large projects that I have managed - I would never rely only on what a supplier tells me, or when they choose to tell me - and I would find it incredible that any cruise line wouldn't do the same.

 

Notwithstanding any of the very real issues that likely have affected the build, surely Viking would have been aware of the potential of a delay quite some time before they had to cancel the cruises? At bare minimum, once had to cancel the June trips, I would expect they had a more accurate revised delivery date for the Mississippi, and hence some insight at that time into the impact on the July / August cruises.
 

I raise the questions because, given what I've read here, I believe Viking is missing an opportunity to enhance their image and improve their client relations through better communications - in this case by providing earlier "heads-up" warnings when possible as opposed to 'communicating' by last-minute cancellations (which seems to be the norm in the industry).
 

I've had the (painful) experience of relying on my own informed judgement to advise clients that there was risk that a project would miss its deadline. As angry as they may have been then, it always proved to be the better course to have provided the earliest possible warning. If we were able to recover the project, that was fine - if it did slip, at least the clients had the opportunity to consider available mitigation with the maximum lead time.
 

I sense a bit of a similar issue brewing with the fall Orion Pacific cruise. Lots of uncertainty regarding access to Japan, Hong Kong, Vietnam and possibly even Oz and NZ - and lots of confusion and concern by pax. Obviously Viking is not in a position to be definitive about what will happen, but I don't see anything proactive in terms of keeping those pax advised - even if it's just to acknowledge the level of uncertainty and let them know that Viking understands their concerns and will communicate regularly.
 

Perhaps the cruise industry is somewhat unique in this respect - I welcome your thoughts ... thx, 🍺🥌

 

 

Rob,

 

With respect to the Mississippi delays, to simplify the issue, I will consider Viking as the ship's owner.

 

When building, or refitting a ship, the owner has representatives on site throughout the entire build and the owner's team will expand as the build progresses. In the Viking business model, I'm not aware that Viking have any Deck Operations or Marine Engineering departments, similar to the major cruise lines, so these functions are provided by the ship managers - Wilhausen Ship Management. They will have at least a Chief Engineer assigned from day 1 of the build and a Master early in the build. Other Deck & Engineering Officers are added as the build progresses. Technical Superintendent will also be onsite, as are Classification Society Surveyors. As the build progresses, Viking hotel staff will be added to the build team. In my experience, each build team member provides updates to the Superintendent, who provides updates to the company and negotiates with the shipyard.

 

As a project approaches completion, it is always surprising how quickly they progress, but experienced officers have a reasonably good feel for when projects start to slide. Therefore, yes, the owner receives progress updates both from the shipyard and their onsite representatives.

 

I can provide you an example from my experience. During a refit, where I saw the schedule slipping, the shipyard continued to deny any slippage. In updating the VP Ops, I suggested he may want to develop contingency plans, as it was looking increasingly likely we might be delayed. These plans were made, but could not be enacted until we received confirmation of the delay.

 

The Chief suggested another potential delay, which is crewing. While my only knowledge of the US requirements is based on the Chief's posts, we had similar standards in Canada. All crew must be trained and certified. Even the basic hotel staff required a month, or more of training, much of which took place aboard the ship. For the Survival Craft training we had in-house certified instructors and a facility with examples of all the lifesaving equipment. I doubt Viking has these resources, so must rely on local training/certification providers. Getting a seat on courses is becoming increasingly challenging due to recertifications and owners trying to hire new crew.

 

Since this is the first ship of this class, even if they have been able to hire sufficient crew, the crew cannot commence the onboard training until the ship is nearing completion. Another factor to consider, while interview processes can weed out poor candidates, those selected don't all make it through the training phase. When hiring Deck Officers, all candidates had to be fully certified, but only about 50% completed my training & familiarisation, with some lasting less than an hour. Many deep-sea crew just cannot adapt to the rigours of coastal and river operations.

 

The marine industry is no different from many others, in that they are experiencing an extreme shortage of Masters, Officers & Ratings. Therefore, even if Viking had managed to hire sufficient crew, they may have a tough time finding replacements for those that fail the training & familiarisation phase. No doubt, you have seen on the news that my old company is cancelling hundreds of sailings this summer, due to lack of crew, sadly this is now the industry norm.

 

In summary, I concur that only providing 2-weeks notice of cancellation is bad form. Viking should be capable of providing better customer service than this. However, potential issues causing the delays abound with many players involved - shipyard, ship owner, ship manager, crew training/certification providers, crew availability, etc. While Viking's name is prominently displayed and they have all the accountability, they have minimal influence over all of the parties responsible. This is a significant issue, but without knowing what information was provided to Viking and more importantly when, calling this a Viking Management issue is no more than ill-informed speculation. 

[CurlerRob]

3 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Rob,

 

With respect to the Mississippi delays, to simplify the issue, I will consider Viking as the ship's owner.

 

When building, or refitting a ship, the owner has representatives on site throughout the entire build and the owner's team will expand as the build progresses. In the Viking business model, I'm not aware that Viking have any Deck Operations or Marine Engineering departments, similar to the major cruise lines, so these functions are provided by the ship managers - Wilhausen Ship Management. They will have at least a Chief Engineer assigned from day 1 of the build and a Master early in the build. Other Deck & Engineering Officers are added as the build progresses. Technical Superintendent will also be onsite, as are Classification Society Surveyors. As the build progresses, Viking hotel staff will be added to the build team. In my experience, each build team member provides updates to the Superintendent, who provides updates to the company and negotiates with the shipyard.

 

As a project approaches completion, it is always surprising how quickly they progress, but experienced officers have a reasonably good feel for when projects start to slide. Therefore, yes, the owner receives progress updates both from the shipyard and their onsite representatives.

 

I can provide you an example from my experience. During a refit, where I saw the schedule slipping, the shipyard continued to deny any slippage. In updating the VP Ops, I suggested he may want to develop contingency plans, as it was looking increasingly likely we might be delayed. These plans were made, but could not be enacted until we received confirmation of the delay.

 

The Chief suggested another potential delay, which is crewing. While my only knowledge of the US requirements is based on the Chief's posts, we had similar standards in Canada. All crew must be trained and certified. Even the basic hotel staff required a month, or more of training, much of which took place aboard the ship. For the Survival Craft training we had in-house certified instructors and a facility with examples of all the lifesaving equipment. I doubt Viking has these resources, so must rely on local training/certification providers. Getting a seat on courses is becoming increasingly challenging due to recertifications and owners trying to hire new crew.

 

Since this is the first ship of this class, even if they have been able to hire sufficient crew, the crew cannot commence the onboard training until the ship is nearing completion. Another factor to consider, while interview processes can weed out poor candidates, those selected don't all make it through the training phase. When hiring Deck Officers, all candidates had to be fully certified, but only about 50% completed my training & familiarisation, with some lasting less than an hour. Many deep-sea crew just cannot adapt to the rigours of coastal and river operations.

 

The marine industry is no different from many others, in that they are experiencing an extreme shortage of Masters, Officers & Ratings. Therefore, even if Viking had managed to hire sufficient crew, they may have a tough time finding replacements for those that fail the training & familiarisation phase. No doubt, you have seen on the news that my old company is cancelling hundreds of sailings this summer, due to lack of crew, sadly this is now the industry norm.

 

In summary, I concur that only providing 2-weeks notice of cancellation is bad form. Viking should be capable of providing better customer service than this. However, potential issues causing the delays abound with many players involved - shipyard, ship owner, ship manager, crew training/certification providers, crew availability, etc. While Viking's name is prominently displayed and they have all the accountability, they have minimal influence over all of the parties responsible. This is a significant issue, but without knowing what information was provided to Viking and more importantly when, calling this a Viking Management issue is no more than ill-informed speculation. 

 

Andy, thanks very much for the time you took to provide the additional and even more comprehensive background! Between you, Jim and the Chief, it's been a fascinating education.

 

Your description of the on-site owner's teams gives me great comfort - that's how anyone should be overseeing a major project and your explanation demonstrates the major commitment that Viking makes to governance on the project.

 

I completely understand that many of the pressures on the service date for a new ship are not within the owner's control - that's ever the truth when there are multiple providers in a project. That said, as you point out, its the owner that's accountable to the pax - as a client once said to me in similar circumstances, "your explanations are interesting, but irrelevant".

 

I continue to hope that Viking will move more towards the early transparency model, as I am a firm believer that doing so is a long-term competitive advantage. To steal from the Chief's shore side example - as a lessee, I'd do business again with the developer who gave me an early heads-up (even before they had any formal notification from suppliers) versus the guy who told me I can't move in at the last minute!

 

Thanks again for your insight!! 🍺🥌

[Twitchly]

9 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

Many deep-sea crew just cannot adapt to the rigours of coastal and river operations.

At the risk of taking this discussion far from the original topic, I’d be interested in hearing more about this. What makes coastal and river operations more rigorous than ocean?

[Heidi13]

16 minutes ago, Twitchly said:

At the risk of taking this discussion far from the original topic, I’d be interested in hearing more about this. What makes coastal and river operations more rigorous than ocean?

 

Short answer is proximity to land, shallow water, extreme currents and lots of small boats.

 

To provide some examples:

 - Back in my deep-sea days, I have gone many days standing on the Bridge and never altered speed, altered course or even seen another ship.

 

Coastal navigation:

 - We navigated through a narrow channel that had 2 - 90 degree turns. Currents were up to 6 kts. Southbound, approaching the 2nd turn, we were doing about 20 kts, a mere 500 feet from the rocks. When I started, the entire width of the channel at the corner was filled with small boats out fishing.

 - Seymour Narrows which is 100 miles north of Vancouver. It also has a couple of 90 degree turns, but current can be up to 16 kts. We ran this 4 times per week at any state of the tide. Cruise ships only go through at slack water. Cruise ships also have a local pilot, whereas we navigated the coast without a pilot.

 - In coastal waters you have lots of small boats. Unfortunately, most of them have zero training, so their navigation often contradicts the collision regs.

 - Docking - cargo ships dock a few times a month, while cruise ships dock about 3 to 5 times per week. On the larger Ro/Pax, I did 4 dockings per day (8 hr day) and on the smaller ships, up to 16 dockings per day. We also docked under conditions that cruise ships would not attempt.

 - Docking times - cargo ships and cruise ships have very slow and relaxed dockings. We approached at full speed (20 - 21 kts) until 1 mile before the dock. From the first reduction in speed to being alongside was about 7 minutes. Cruise ships and cargo ships have reduced to 3 to 5 kts about 1 mile before the berths and could take 3/4 hr+ to complete the last mile.

 - I recall a very experienced ULCC Master I had for familairisation that couldn't handle the coast. Every time he saw a small boat, even if it was 10 miles away, he wanted to stop. In his experience, a ULCC takes over 10 miles to stop from about 12 - 14 kts, while my ship could stop in 1/3 mile from 21 kts. We had a schedule to maintain, so unnecessary slow down/stops weren't acceptable. He just couldn't transition to the coastal operation

 - Radar - on a 12 mile range, deep-sea you rarely had any targets, on the coast you could easily have 20 to 30+ targets, all of which must be monitored to determine if a close quarter exists. 

 

[Jim Avery]

Well put Andy.  I always liked passing the sea bouy and dropping the pilot.  Heading for deep sea the only time to "relax".   😎