Gratuities, does the employees actually get them?

[www3traveler]

According to a crew website as of the 18th of November 2022, NCL has put some new crew rules into effect for those who are 2 stripes or less: (1) they will no longer be able to have acess to public areas including bars, restaurants and other place without prior permission (2) they will no longer have cabin stewards which I think means they have to clean their own cabins.

 

WOW!!

[chengkp75]

17 minutes ago, www3traveler said:

According to a crew website as of the 18th of November 2022, NCL has put some new crew rules into effect for those who are 2 stripes or less: (1) they will no longer be able to have acess to public areas including bars, restaurants and other place without prior permission (2) they will no longer have cabin stewards which I think means they have to clean their own cabins.

 

WOW!!

Back when I worked there, the only officers/supervisors that were allowed in pax areas off duty, without prior department head permission, were 3 stripes and above.  The venues allowed, and the number of times per month the crew could request access was restricted by the number of stripes.  I know that one stripe officers/supervisors did not have cabin stewards at that time, not sure about 1.5 or 2 stripe, but I think it may only have been once weekly service.  Some of this may have changed due to covid, and NCL is returning to pre-covid standards.

[New2cruise2022]

52 minutes ago, www3traveler said:

Crew members come from all over the world.  Some speak and understand English better than others.

 

Do you remember the 1st time you ever got a payroll slip?  Did you know what it said?  Codes for payroll deductions can be very confusing.  Most young people I know multiply the number of hours they have worked by whatever their pay rate is and think that what they will get-- it isn't.  Same thing with crew.  

 

For many direct deposit is new-- some countries still do not have it.  So crew gets paid and has to wire money home.

 

I currently employ 50 young people, ranging from 18-25. Over the last decade I have employed nearly 300 of these young people. Most are working for me while they attend university. Some have had other jobs before, some have not. Nearly all of them need help reading their pay report or simply don’t care. Nearly all. For some English is a second language but nearly all of them English is their primary language.
 

@www3traveleris making a fair assumption based on age and experience. I regularly have to explain net versus gross, insurance deductions, etc. FWIW, this is the hospitality business. My employees make base hourly wage + tips that are pooled by shift. I pay a base pay that is stand alone fair and twice the federal minimum wage. Tips are used to encourage first rate customer service and an incentive that helps with retention of employees. 100% of tips go directly to my employees. 

 

This long discussion about DSC is strange to me as both a consumer and a business owner. NCL should structure the payroll and or DSC. If the lives of the crew are impacted by the DSC, then make it 100% obligatory. Capture it in the cost of the cruise. Don’t make it an addendum fee that the customer has any control or discretion over. As soon as that option is there, these discussion ensue and you have consumers justifying the removal of an implement intended to help with the compensation and livelihood of employees. 

[chengkp75]

14 minutes ago, New2cruise2022 said:

I regularly have to explain net versus gross, insurance deductions, etc.

Yes, amazingly, I had a college graduate ship's officer who complained that his paycheck was not what "he was promised", and had no idea about Social Security withholding, or tax withholding.

[PATRLR]

19 minutes ago, New2cruise2022 said:

I currently employ 50 young people, ranging from 18-25.

I think the difference here is you employ "young" people.  Most of the ships staff isn't as young as you describe.  

 

Most all of the staff I have conversations with (admittedly that means stewards, bar staff, waiters) are not young, are mostly married and many have families and children back home.  I'd expect these people are not ignorant of their work contracts, pay stubs, etc.

[New2cruise2022]

2 minutes ago, PATRLR said:

I think the difference here is you employ "young" people.  Most of the ships staff isn't as young as you describe.  

 

Most all of the staff I have conversations with (admittedly that means stewards, bar staff, waiters) are not young, are mostly married and many have families and children back home.  I'd expect these people are not ignorant of their work contracts, pay stubs, etc.

Thank you for pointing that out. The staff on the ship may be a very different cross section from the one I described and have experience with. 
 

I do think some consumers are just, as Elaine once said, “extremely careful with money.” (Cue George taking off his glasses, “I’m cheap! You think I’m cheap!!!) And knowing that is the case, make sure there are systems in place to adequately pay for employees without giving discretion to consumers. It’s a cruise ship. They don’t run perfectly. Many consumers will lump employees in with the entire experience. If the lines were long for elevators or the weather wasn’t good, some consumers will complain about it as if it were the crew’s fault. Why give them a vehicle like DSC to express disappointment and diminish the capability to adequately compensate hard work?
 

It isn’t a far distance to travel for many consumers to “justify” lowering or removing the DSC. “I didn’t require a steward to clean my room twice a day.” “I ate in the buffet most of the time.” “I ate in specialty restaurants everyday and paid gratuities there.”
 

This discussion degenerates to tip or not tip because the unfixed nature - and the after “final” payment nature of the DSC - begs the question. 

[RocketMan275]

42 minutes ago, New2cruise2022 said:

If the lives of the crew are impacted by the DSC, then make it 100% obligatory. Capture it in the cost of the cruise. Don’t make it an addendum fee that the customer has any control or discretion over. As soon as that option is there, these discussion ensue and you have consumers justifying the removal of an implement intended to help with the compensation and livelihood of employees. 

It has been reported that most crew get their jobs through what we would call an employment agency.  That agency gets a percentage of their wages.  If this is true then making DSC a part of the fare would reduce the crew's compensation. Only the 'employment agency' would profit.

Edited November 22, 2022 by RocketMan275

[PATRLR]

1 minute ago, RocketMan275 said:

It has been reported that most crew get their jobs through what we would call an employment agency.  That agency gets a percentage of their wages.  If this is truem then making DSC a part of the fare would reduce the crew's compensation. Only the 'employment agency' would profit.

And you know the agency gets a percentage of wages how?  And you know that percentage does not include the DSC portion of their pay how?  

Most agencies I've dealt with get a flat fee, or, they get a straight markup if the employee is being paid on the agency's paper.

But those are just details that could be negotiated.  Making the DSC obligatory and making sure the staff gets their fair share and the agency gets their due all can be negotiated.
 

[chengkp75]

2 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

It has been reported that most crew get their jobs through what we would call an employment agency.  That agency gets a percentage of their wages.

This is true, and the agencies ("unions") also require that a percentage of the salary be sent to the home country each pay period.

 

3 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

If this is true then making DSC a part of the fare would reduce the crew's compensation.

I don't follow this, or how this relates to the crewing agency getting a percentage.  If the DSC is made part of the fare, do you think the line would reduce pay to the statutory minimum (which is about half of what most make)?  They would never hire crew at that rate.  If the DSC is rolled into the cruise fare, then the cruise line would have use that same amount to pay the crew.

 

6 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Only the 'employment agency' would profit.

The crewing agency, just like most of the crews' home countries, makes no distinction between a "base salary", or a "DSC" or "gratuity" that is collected by the employer.  The only money that would make a difference to the crewing agency is a gratuity given by the customer directly to the crew.

[www3traveler]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Back when I worked there, the only officers/supervisors that were allowed in pax areas off duty, without prior department head permission, were 3 stripes and above.  The venues allowed, and the number of times per month the crew could request access was restricted by the number of stripes.  I know that one stripe officers/supervisors did not have cabin stewards at that time, not sure about 1.5 or 2 stripe, but I think it may only have been once weekly service.  Some of this may have changed due to covid, and NCL is returning to pre-covid standards.

Thank You   As always, I appreciate your thoughts.

[kenzie]

On 11/20/2022 at 6:40 PM, mianmike said:

 

I didn't know that.  When that change?

How would they know if I gave $x to a waiter that I had cancelled my gratuities? 

[cruiseny4life]

2 hours ago, New2cruise2022 said:

@www3traveleris making a fair assumption based on age and experience. I regularly have to explain net versus gross, insurance deductions, etc. FWIW, this is the hospitality business. My employees make base hourly wage + tips that are pooled by shift. I pay a base pay that is stand alone fair and twice the federal minimum wage. Tips are used to encourage first rate customer service and an incentive that helps with retention of employees. 100% of tips go directly to my employees. 

I do have to chime in as I'm currently working in the HR field, have been a charter school leader responsible for the HR function, and used to work as in HR manager at two other workplaces. I have worked at workplaces where tips were a portion of an employee's compensation, but primarily I have worked in professional settings (think corporate, but small corporate offices).

 

I said all the above to show that I'm not a n00b to the world of HR. @New2cruise2022 is correct when he states he has to explain all the different parts of a paycheck, contracts, etc. to new employees (of course he is, he said it). 

 

2 hours ago, PATRLR said:

Most all of the staff I have conversations with (admittedly that means stewards, bar staff, waiters) are not young, are mostly married and many have families and children back home.  I'd expect these people are not ignorant of their work contracts, pay stubs, etc.

Perhaps cruise ship employees are actually educated about their contracts, how their compensation works, etc. I'm guessing no. There have been many times, in my professional experience, that I have had to sit down with VP's, school leaders, and others to explain why the amount of their paycheck was different one week to the next (salaried employees). They don't understand that when increasing/decreasing their pre-tax deductions or receiving a bonus, that their taxes will show up differently, which impacts their net. It's pretty darn sad sometimes who I have had to explain this to. 

 

In the school setting, I can't tell you how many teachers I had to talk with just to help them understand how direct deposit works. Many don't understand high-deductible vs. PPO healthcare plans. When I started working as a school leader, I thought my days of explaining these topics would be over. Instead, they only increased. 

 

Unless the cruise lines/employment agencies go through the crew contract with a fine tooth comb with the new crew, I suspect the crew doesn't really understand their contract or pay. I do agree with the intent of your statement that the crew are not succumbing to deceptive practices or wage theft. I'm not saying that at all! But, I do think you give too much credit to employees to understand their work arrangements as I've sadly seen easy contracts, letters of agreement, offer letters confuse very educated, extremely experienced (in their field) professionals. 

 

@chengkp75, @PATRLR, and @RocketMan275 have all made points out staffing agencies. My experience is slightly different as I've worked with J-1 visa holders only. These cultural exchange visa holders staff our national parks, amusement parks, large hotels, boutique grocery stores, etc. They aren't under the same requirements as @chengkp75 mentioned in that are required to send payments back to their home country.

 

As @PATRLRmentioned, it sounds like they're not exactly the same in terms of payment for the placement either. J-1 students pay the staffing agency they work with a flat fee, after accepting an employment agreement, but prior to their contract starting. This would seem like a slightly more fair way for cruise line staffing agencies to work. I suppose there may be different requirements as the visa is different though?  I agree with @PATRLR(and so many other cruisers) that making the Daily Service Charge a mandatory fee (or preferably, part of the fare) would be a much cleaner way to ensure the crew make as much as possible given the parameters of their agreements. 

 

As always, sorry for the lengthy comment. You know how I am and I am truly enjoying this discussion! Thanks everyone for being so great at discussing, at length, the requirements of staffing a ship.

[RocketMan275]

There is one thing missing from this discussion of whether the gratuities/DSC should be part of the cruise fare and that is: "What would the crew prefer"?  

There was a big push to eliminate tipping, if IRCC, in NYC.  Polls indicated that the workers prefered not to eliminate the tipping.

What we might want as customers is less relevant than the crew's preferences.

[graphicguy]

I love this topic.  It's such a great time.

 

😉

[dbrown84]

45 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

There is one thing missing from this discussion of whether the gratuities/DSC should be part of the cruise fare and that is: "What would the crew prefer"?  

There was a big push to eliminate tipping, if IRCC, in NYC.  Polls indicated that the workers prefered not to eliminate the tipping.

What we might want as customers is less relevant than the crew's preferences.

I can see why they would prefer to keep tipping.  I'm sure at the end of the day, they make more with tips.  Especially when you consider that anything this is paid via a paycheck is taxed.  And yes, I know they are supposed to pay taxes on all income, but we know that not everyone reports all the cash they earn when filing out their taxes

[RocketMan275]

4 minutes ago, dbrown84 said:

I can see why they would prefer to keep tipping.  I'm sure at the end of the day, they make more with tips.  Especially when you consider that anything this is paid via a paycheck is taxed.  And yes, I know they are supposed to pay taxes on all income, but we know that not everyone reports all the cash they earn when filing out their taxes

Point well taken.  However, don't forget that the crew comes from many different jurisdictions.  Consequently, we don't know how their income is taxed in their home countries.

Edited November 22, 2022 by RocketMan275

[ziggyuk]

@chengkp75
Could I ask one more please.

It is often reported that any cash tip given to crew members must be turned in, is there any truth in this?
Many thanks.

 

[RocketMan275]

2 minutes ago, ziggyuk said:

@chengkp75
Could I ask one more please.

It is often reported that any cash tip given to crew members must be turned in, is there any truth in this?
Many thanks.

 

I've seen what was claimed to be a copy of an actual contract and that did state that to be correct in the event the guest modified the DSC.  This was on Holland and it was over four years ago that I saw that 'contract' posted.  Some posters vehemently claimed that this 'contract' was falsified. 

 

If you  haven't figured this out, there are many who are looking for any justification to remove the DSC.  I even saw one poster who wanted to remove the DSC and then give the equivalent amount to another passenger who would then give that amount to his room steward.  In his opinion, this would circumvent the steward having to turn that amount in since the crewmember could truthfully deny receiving it from a guest in one of  his rooms.  This was also about four years ago in the Holland forum.

[dbrown84]

9 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Point well taken.  However, don't forget that the crew comes from many different jurisdictions.  Consequently, we don't know how their income is taxed in their home countries.

Excellent point.  I was just thinking of the US

[RocketMan275]

1 minute ago, dbrown84 said:

Excellent point.  I was just thinking of the US

That's one problem in these treads. 

All too often we only look at it from the perspective of a US resident.

Nor, do we look at it from the perspective of the crew member.  Most of us do not wish to work for tips and we project that onto the crew.

[julig22]

6 minutes ago, ziggyuk said:

@chengkp75
Could I ask one more please.

It is often reported that any cash tip given to crew members must be turned in, is there any truth in this?
Many thanks.

 

Curious as well.  Had a situation on a cruise where my cabin steward was leaving at the end of the cruise. I usually leave a tip in the room the last day.  In this case I gave it to her the last night when I realized she wouldn't be in my room in the morning but I wonder what would have happened to that final tip.

[chengkp75]

53 minutes ago, ziggyuk said:

@chengkp75
Could I ask one more please.

It is often reported that any cash tip given to crew members must be turned in, is there any truth in this?
Many thanks.

 

They are supposed to turn it in, and if DSC for that pax was removed, it goes to the pool, but if DSC was paid, it is returned to crew.  Enforcement, of course, is difficult.

[New2cruise2022]

So if a 2-person room had $160 in total DSC, what benefits employees more: 

1) Paying the DSC; or

2) Removing the DSC and tipping staff throughout the week in cash totaling $300?

[chengkp75]

13 minutes ago, New2cruise2022 said:

So if a 2-person room had $160 in total DSC, what benefits employees more: 

1) Paying the DSC; or

2) Removing the DSC and tipping staff throughout the week in cash totaling $300?

Well, since a good portion of the DSC goes to crew that you never see (not saying whether this is right or wrong, it just is), and given that enforcement of turning in cash tips can be difficult, some of the "back of house" staff could suffer from your #2, while front of house benefits.

[New2cruise2022]

2 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Well, since a good portion of the DSC goes to crew that you never see (not saying whether this is right or wrong, it just is), and given that enforcement of turning in cash tips can be difficult, some of the "back of house" staff could suffer from your #2, while front of house benefits.

It seems the best way to do it is #3:

Pay the DSC and tip service that you personally interact with according to your own judgment and budget.