mcrcruiser Posted February 6, 2023 #1 Share Posted February 6, 2023 We are seeing over $600 for port taxes for the Calif ports . We once use to di these cruises but now stay away because of the high port taxes .Both Mexico & Hawaii port Taxes are much lower . Besides being California does any one know why these port taxes have gone up so much .They are even competing with Alaska & The Panama Canal for the highest tax rates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chengkp75 Posted February 6, 2023 #2 Share Posted February 6, 2023 Shore power. 3 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ipeeinthepools Posted February 6, 2023 #3 Share Posted February 6, 2023 18 minutes ago, chengkp75 said: Shore power. That’s interesting. So is it a net gain for the cruise line in ports with shore power with the passengers paying more? I’m assuming that the cruise line is saving money by not burning fuel in port. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d9704011 Posted February 6, 2023 #4 Share Posted February 6, 2023 16 minutes ago, Ipeeinthepools said: That’s interesting. So is it a net gain for the cruise line in ports with shore power with the passengers paying more? I’m assuming that the cruise line is saving money by not burning fuel in port. I doubt there is a 1:1 relationship between the port taxes and fees compared to the potential fuel savings in the 'shore power' ports. Maybe the cruise line has passed along the reduced fuel costs by cutting everybody's fare by $2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CruiserBruce Posted February 6, 2023 #5 Share Posted February 6, 2023 Seriously comparing US port taxes to Mexico? There isn't any obvious economic reason for higher taxes in the US? And Hawaii has 2 tender only ports... Hopefully the board member with the great explanation of how port taxes are calculated will come along and explain them again. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcrcruiser Posted February 6, 2023 Author #6 Share Posted February 6, 2023 2 hours ago, CruiserBruce said: Seriously comparing US port taxes to Mexico? There isn't any obvious economic reason for higher taxes in the US? And Hawaii has 2 tender only ports... Hopefully the board member with the great explanation of how port taxes are calculated will come along and explain them again. Santa Barbara & Monterey are both tender ports . SF & LA are deep sea ports & Ensenada Mexico is also a deep sea port Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcrcruiser Posted February 6, 2023 Author #7 Share Posted February 6, 2023 12 minutes ago, mcrcruiser said: Santa Barbara & Monterey are both tender ports . SF & LA are deep sea ports & Ensenada Mexico is also a deep sea port Instead of the high port taxes HAL should rebate the unused fuel savings to off set those high port taxes in SF ,SD ,LA & Ensenada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CruiserBruce Posted February 6, 2023 #8 Share Posted February 6, 2023 1 hour ago, mcrcruiser said: Santa Barbara & Monterey are both tender ports . SF & LA are deep sea ports & Ensenada Mexico is also a deep sea port Gee...didn't know that. Only lived here 66 years and sailed out of all of those ports. The ships are paying for the power, so nothing really to rebate. The point of my post is EVERYTING is more expensive in the US as opposed to Mexico, or any of the Caribbean ports. So this really isn't a fair comparison. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcrcruiser Posted February 6, 2023 Author #9 Share Posted February 6, 2023 19 minutes ago, CruiserBruce said: Gee...didn't know that. Only lived here 66 years and sailed out of all of those ports. The ships are paying for the power, so nothing really to rebate. The point of my post is EVERYTING is more expensive in the US as opposed to Mexico, or any of the Caribbean ports. So this really isn't a fair comparison. Mexico is warmer than the coast & we are able to swim in Mexican waters from Cabo San Lucas south but not in the cold waters off the coast of Calif .Same for Hawaiian waters being nice & warm Many people buy perscription drugs in Mexico because of the high cost here in the states;wgich is a shame . We love the in port shopping in Mazatlan where we can get a Mexican beer for $3 vs the high cruise price . We also buy many things while in port with additional saving . Where can you negotiate prices not in the US but at these Mexican ports .Lots of Fun 😁 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcrcruiser Posted February 6, 2023 Author #10 Share Posted February 6, 2023 The Caribbean ports yes are very similar to Mexico in buying any thing vs US prices Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir PMP Posted February 6, 2023 #11 Share Posted February 6, 2023 Hal should avoid these ports in the future. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chengkp75 Posted February 6, 2023 #12 Share Posted February 6, 2023 The port fee I mentioned for shore power is the "hook up" fee, and the "delivery" fee to pay for the infrastructure that was built to provide shore power. Those are flat rates, and can be passed on as "port taxes and fees". As for fuel savings, the cruise line pays for the shore power by the mega-watt-hour, just like your meter at home (though that's in kilowatt-hours), and there have been studies that show it is more expensive for the ships to use shore power than to run their own diesels. The amount charged for the amount of power used, is an "operational" cost, and therefore is not allowed to be included in the "port taxes and fees". 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ipeeinthepools Posted February 6, 2023 #13 Share Posted February 6, 2023 2 minutes ago, chengkp75 said: The port fee I mentioned for shore power is the "hook up" fee, and the "delivery" fee to pay for the infrastructure that was built to provide shore power. Those are flat rates, and can be passed on as "port taxes and fees". As for fuel savings, the cruise line pays for the shore power by the mega-watt-hour, just like your meter at home (though that's in kilowatt-hours), and there have been studies that show it is more expensive for the ships to use shore power than to run their own diesels. The amount charged for the amount of power used, is an "operational" cost, and therefore is not allowed to be included in the "port taxes and fees". Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcrcruiser Posted February 6, 2023 Author #14 Share Posted February 6, 2023 3 minutes ago, chengkp75 said: The port fee I mentioned for shore power is the "hook up" fee, and the "delivery" fee to pay for the infrastructure that was built to provide shore power. Those are flat rates, and can be passed on as "port taxes and fees". As for fuel savings, the cruise line pays for the shore power by the mega-watt-hour, just like your meter at home (though that's in kilowatt-hours), and there have been studies that show it is more expensive for the ships to use shore power than to run their own diesels. The amount charged for the amount of power used, is an "operational" cost, and therefore is not allowed to be included in the "port taxes and fees". The point here is the high port taxes we pay not the cruise line for in port services which includes electric power to the ships . When does these high port fees end or do they ever end . There can become a time when they price themselves out of the market . There is only so much consumers will absorb . Even Alaska is going wild with taxes as has the Panama Canal . It seems to me that these jurisdictions can charge at will . If enough people don't accept it then things will have to change but will they is the question or continue to pay high fees or even higher fees . Taxes never have gone down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ldtr Posted February 6, 2023 #15 Share Posted February 6, 2023 Santa Barbara charges a tax of $10 per passenger Some of the LA port charges Effective September 20, 2016, bundled Passenger fees are inclusive of (subject to Note 1 and Note 2): (1) Passenger fees (2) Dockage for the first twenty-four hours only (3) Wharfage for vessel stores and supplies (4) Lay Day Fee for the first twenty-four hours only Effective Date Per Passenger Fee 9/20/2016 $13.50 9/1/2017 $13.91 9/1/2018 $14.32 9/1/2019 $14.75 9/1/2020 $15.19 9/1/2021 $15.65 9/1/2022 $16.12 9/1/2023 $16.60 (b) Pilotage charges will be assessed per gross registered ton in addition to a charge assessed on the overall length of the vessel per movement type (see Item 300) according to the following tables: Gross Registered Ton (GRT) Rate Schedule Effective Date 4/1/2021 1/1/2022 1/1/2023 1/1/2024 1/1/2025 $0.00665 $0.00703 $0.00742 $0.00783 $0.00827 Overall Length of Vessel in Meters (See Item 320) Figure another $4000 or more every time the ship enters or leaves the harbor based upon ship length in addition to the gross weight fee There are a number of categories that LA port charges for. For those interested in the details here are the various categories https://www.portoflosangeles.org/business/tariff It all adds up rather quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USN59-79 Posted February 6, 2023 #16 Share Posted February 6, 2023 What @ldtr just posted certainly doesn't add up to $600. per passenger; not even close. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare Colorado Klutch Posted February 6, 2023 #17 Share Posted February 6, 2023 Likely port fees in California are high for the reasons everything else in California is high; big demand. California is by the far the most populous state. It is easy for Californians to drive or fly to a California cruise port. California ports offer very popular itineraries. People from outside of California also have a reason to embark from a California port to go to Mexico, Hawaii and the South Pacific. That's a lot of demand. This allows the state to charge a lot of money so they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ldtr Posted February 6, 2023 #18 Share Posted February 6, 2023 6 minutes ago, mcrcruiser said: The point here is the high port taxes we pay not the cruise line for in port services which includes electric power to the ships . When does these high port fees end or do they ever end . There can become a time when they price themselves out of the market . There is only so much consumers will absorb . Even Alaska is going wild with taxes as has the Panama Canal . It seems to me that these jurisdictions can charge at will . If enough people don't accept it then things will have to change but will they is the question or continue to pay high fees or even higher fees . Taxes never have gone down Actually in LA and San Francisco they do pay for electricity as part of port services, at least according to the LA port fee list. Keep in mind that California has passed laws concerning cruise ships and air pollution that pretty much requires shore based power where possible. Electric current supplied by the Department of Water and Power of the City of Los Angeles is subject to changes in rates without notification from the Harbor Department. When furnished to vessels at wharves and for services supplied in connection therewith through facilities of the Harbor Department, a service charge of fifteen percent (15%) of the cost of such electric current will be added for the use of such facilities. They will continue to go up each year, just as the LA port tariffs show annual increases on all fees. They will also continue to increase as cities and states change laws and raise taxes on cruise ships and their passengers. Not much doubt that the fees will increase just as other costs increase. In additions you have locals in many of these communities lobbying their local government for increased fees or even more restrictions limiting cruise ships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ldtr Posted February 6, 2023 #19 Share Posted February 6, 2023 2 minutes ago, USN59-79 said: What @ldtr just posted certainly doesn't add up to $600. per passenger; not even close. Ray That is just a small portion of the fees. I just posted some as examples to show the annual rate increases. No way for example to post the power charges in LA since we do not know the consumption, but if you click on the link you will see the section on power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chengkp75 Posted February 6, 2023 #20 Share Posted February 6, 2023 10 minutes ago, mcrcruiser said: It seems to me that these jurisdictions can charge at will . If enough people don't accept it then things will have to change but will they is the question or continue to pay high fees or even higher fees . Taxes never have gone down What you don't understand is that the taxes and fees paid by the cruise lines are a very small percentage of the total taxes and fees collected by the ports. Cargo ships pay the same dockage fees, pilot and tug fees, etc, and also pay a tax on each container landed or loaded, just like the per passenger tax. This affects nearly every price in your daily lives, as over 80% of world commerce travels by sea. The cruise ship taxes and fees don't go to just maintain the cruise terminal, it all goes into the port authority kitty for upkeep of the entire port. And, as you say, things cost more in the US than it does in Mexico or the Caribbean, so the cost to maintain the ports will be higher. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ldtr Posted February 6, 2023 #21 Share Posted February 6, 2023 Just a little more information on the increase in port fees The rule requires that every vessel coming into a regulated California port either use shore power (e.g., plug in to the local electrical grid) or a CARB-approved control technology to reduce harmful emissions. These include diesel particulate matter, fine particulate matter (PM2.5) oxides of nitrogen (NOx, a precursor to smog), reactive organic gases (ROG, another precursor to smog), greenhouse gases, and oxides of sulfur (SOx). One example of an alternative to shore power is what is known as capture-and-control technology that employs a “bonnet” to cover a ship’s exhaust stacks, both containing and treating harmful emissions. The existing regulation stays in force through 2022; the updated regulation starts in 2023 when container, reefer and cruise vessels – already included under the existing rule - will transition to the new regulation. Auto carriers will need to comply starting in 2025. Tankers docking at the Port of Los Angeles and the Port of Long Beach must also comply starting in 2025, while tankers in Northern California have until 2027. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chengkp75 Posted February 6, 2023 #22 Share Posted February 6, 2023 4 minutes ago, ldtr said: Actually in LA and San Francisco they do pay for electricity as part of port services, at least according to the LA port fee list. There are a lot of things on the "port fee list" that cannot be listed as "port fees and taxes" by the cruise lines. Things that are required to be paid, simply because the ship is in port (like the hook up fee, and delivery fee for shore power) is required for any ship that enters the port. The actual usage of electricity, while paid to the port authority, is an "operational" cost, just like potable water, or wharfage and stevedoring for the provisions and stores that are loaded, and these costs are not "required" but are optional charges that the ship decides it needs. These cannot be included in "port taxes and fees" according to a class action suit against the cruise lines a couple of decades ago. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare FlaMariner Posted February 6, 2023 #23 Share Posted February 6, 2023 13 minutes ago, Colorado Klutch said: Likely port fees in California are high for the reasons everything else in California is high; big demand. California is by the far the most populous state. It is easy for Californians to drive or fly to a California cruise port. Not sure about this......This is dated (2016/17) but as far as passenger counts, California is way on down the list for cruise ship passenger count. Florida looks like the volume winner and I have not heard of sky high port taxes/fees there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_cruise_ports_by_passengers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare Colorado Klutch Posted February 6, 2023 #24 Share Posted February 6, 2023 3 minutes ago, FlaMariner said: Not sure about this......This is dated (2016/17) but as far as passenger counts, California is way on down the list for cruise ship passenger count. Florida looks like the volume winner and I have not heard of sky high port taxes/fees there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_cruise_ports_by_passengers Fair points, but California doesn't have the massive cruise port infrastructure present in Florida. And California doesn't have the room to build such cruise ports. So maybe there is more demand for less dock space? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcrcruiser Posted February 6, 2023 Author #25 Share Posted February 6, 2023 Ir could easily reach the point where the port taxes for the 3 deep sea ports pushes business away from the California ports including cargo ships who may be apt to unload in Mexico or Oregon . There are always ends to both good & bad things 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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