Dogs on the ship

[biggerbearmom]

53 minutes ago, LindaS272 said:

Maybe this owner has seizures and the dog is there for detection, but dogs like this should be clearly indicated to the rest of the pax.

 

That may be the case, but true service dogs do not sit at the table while his person is eating. My best friend’s father was blinded in the Korean War. He had German Shepherds as his guide dogs; in all the years I spent in their home, never once did I see it sitting on the couch, on a chair, sleeping on his bed, being fed table scraps, etc. They were well trained and cared for service dogs. I have no issues with service animals in the true sense of the intent, but I’m sorry, this appears to be someone taking advantage of the situation.

[LindaS272]

1 minute ago, biggerbearmom said:

That may be the case, but true service dogs do not sit at the table while his person is eating. My best friend’s father was blinded in the Korean War. He had German Shepherds as his guide dogs; in all the years I spent in their home, never once did I see it sitting on the couch, on a chair, sleeping on his bed, being fed table scraps, etc. They were well trained and cared for service dogs. I have no issues with service animals in the true sense of the intent, but I’m sorry, this appears to be someone taking advantage of the situation.

Exactly.

[Jim Avery]

It could get worse.....

 

https://apple.news/A_j2LZ_OMQcSW5rN4FjlMlA

[Sunflower & The Scientist]

2 minutes ago, biggerbearmom said:

That may be the case, but true service dogs do not sit at the table while his person is eating. My best friend’s father was blinded in the Korean War. He had German Shepherds as his guide dogs; in all the years I spent in their home, never once did I see it sitting on the couch, on a chair, sleeping on his bed, being fed table scraps, etc. They were well trained and cared for service dogs. I have no issues with service animals in the true sense of the intent, but I’m sorry, this appears to be someone taking advantage of the situation.

Exactly.....true service dogs no matter their breed, size or duty, behave like service dogs. A working dog is a real thing of beauty. The dogs pictured appear to be nothing but pets. 

 

I feel this whole issue is making a mockery of service dogs. 

 

 

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, Level six said:

They are not telling you  the truth Viking.  These dogs are NOT service dogs and have not been trained to be.  You need to get proper and accurate documentation that is not from the internet and made up. 

Per the ADA, there is no required documentation for a service animal, and it is illegal to ask for it.

 

2 hours ago, KBs mum said:

Small service dogs tend to be working or gundogbreeds, not toy. They need the intelligence, temperament and work ability, hence why breeds such as spaniels and labradors are often chosen. Toy breeds might be OK, but it's rare to see one as a service animal, two out of four on a ship seems an improbably high percentage

I have seen quite a few toy breeds used for diabetic detection dogs, as they need to be carried in the owner's arms or a chest carrier to sniff the owner's breath.  Given that about 1 in 10 US citizens are diabetic, and that number is growing, it wouldn't surprise me to see that all four animals were diabetic alert dogs.  Not saying some of them might be fake, but it wouldn't be out of consideration.

 

2 hours ago, LindaS272 said:

Maybe this owner has seizures and the dog is there for detection, but dogs like this should be clearly indicated to the rest of the pax.

As per the ADA, there is no requirement to have a vest or any other form of identification on the animal that it is a service animal.  Or, should they shame the owner by making a PA announcement that "so and so" has a small service dog, that alerts when the person is having a seizure or diabetic incident.

 

I do not want to see dogs that are not service animals, or therapy dogs (as Viking's new policy specifically calls out), allowed onboard.  However, to jump to conclusions based on the breed or size of the dog is discriminatory, without knowing what the disability the person has, which is not legal for Viking to ask about, nor is it the business of anyone onboard.  PTSD dogs and other psychiatric therapy dogs are covered by the ADA, and can perform tasks that no one would think of as being done by a "true" service dog, and some that the larger, more "traditional" breeds would not be a good match for.

 

It all comes down to what I think is the only real solution to this, and that is for the cruise lines, either individually, or as an industry via CLIA, to adopt a "Service Animal Code of Conduct" (as is allowed under Spector v NCL) and remove any animals, and their owners, that don't meet this code of conduct.  I have said this for years now, on many forums on CC.

[LindaS272]

9 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

As per the ADA, there is no requirement to have a vest or any other form of identification on the animal that it is a service animal.  Or, should they shame the owner by making a PA announcement that "so and so" has a small service dog, that alerts when the person is having a seizure or diabetic incident.

Not advocating “shaming” the person, but we’ve got a lively concern among CC posters that Viking appears to be allowing ESAs on board. And four dogs on one cruise is quite a lot. I don’t care that the ADA doesn’t require ID for an animal. I’m saying it’s appearing to be a problem for some Viking pax that we don’t know if a service animal is legitimate or is someone’s pet. There should be a way for the other pax on the cruise to know. The person is out in the public—why would knowledge of the dog being a legitimate service dog be “shaming” them? (And not talking about making an announcement over the PA system for Pete’s sake.)

Edited April 1, 2023 by LindaS272

[biggerbearmom]

 

“I have seen quite a few toy breeds used for diabetic detection dogs, as they need to be carried in the owner's arms or a chest carrier to sniff the owner's breath.  Given that about 1 in 10 US citizens are diabetic, and that number isgrowing, it wouldn't surprise me to see that all four animals were diabetic alert dogs.  Not saying some of them might be fake, but it wouldn't be out of consideration.”

 

I am not disagreeing with the statements that you made in your post. But are you saying that a dog for a diabetic must always be carried in order to sniff the breath of the owner? That means the dog must always be in proximity of the owners mouth, that just doesn’t make sense. I always thought it was the sweat glands that the dogs pick up on.

[Azulann]

Good to know that Viking  does  read their mail and monitor this forum. I am glad they responded. 

I will be on the Viking Jupiter in June and will do a live trip report so I will let you alll know about any dogs on board and better yet , what a  scenic cruise we are having.... 🤩

[Level six]

22 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Per the ADA, there is no required documentation for a service animal, and it is illegal to ask for it

How can they require proof of accessible cabin? 

[chengkp75]

15 minutes ago, LindaS272 said:

I’m saying it’s appearing to be a problem for some Viking pax that we don’t know if a service animal is legitimate or is someone’s pet. There should be a way for the other pax on the cruise to know.

If you go into a store or restaurant at home, and there is a dog sitting under the table, are you entitled to know whether the dog is a service animal or not?  That is between the dog's owner and the business owner, not you.  If you have a legitimate concern about the dog, such as an allergy or fear, then that is between you and the business owner, not between you and the dog's owner.  How would you suggest that the "other pax" on the cruise get to "know" if the dog is a service animal or not?  First you want the dog to be a service animal according to the ADA definition, but then you "don't care" about the ADA's requirement for privacy of the disabled person so that the dog has to wear a scarlet letter, just to please you?

 

Sorry, but having been an ADA compliance officer on cruise ships, I don't like the fake animals any more than folks here, but I also respect the privacy of the disabled, and their right to live as normal a life as possible, without having to meet your requirements.  Should everyone need to know if you have a colostomy bag, and can have odors around you from this disability?  Should everyone know that you have Asperger's syndrome, and may frequently yell out obscenities, and are not just some drunk?

 

It is the business owner's decision as to whether a service animal affects the essential nature of their business, but they don't have to advertise when a service animal is present in the business.

[chengkp75]

24 minutes ago, biggerbearmom said:

But are you saying that a dog for a diabetic must always be carried in order to sniff the breath of the owner?

I don't know the exact physics of a diabetic alert dog, but I do know that the ADA specifically spells out that a service animal can be carried in the owner's arms.

[Peregrina651]

37 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Or, should they shame the owner by making a PA announcement that "so and so" has a small service dog, that alerts when the person is having a seizure or diabetic incident.

 

Not over the PA, but complaints could be replied to with a simple phrase, "We are aware that there are service animals aboard the ship at this time and we will talk with the owners about their behavior"  -- and then actually go have that conversation, with all owners who are aboard at the time. This also means that the cruise line needs to spell out in advance any restrictions on behavior -- such as sitting on the furniture, being feed from the table, etc.

Edited April 1, 2023 by Peregrina651

[LindaS272]

6 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

If you go into a store or restaurant at home, and there is a dog sitting under the table, are you entitled to know whether the dog is a service animal or not?  That is between the dog's owner and the business owner, not you.  If you have a legitimate concern about the dog, such as an allergy or fear, then that is between you and the business owner, not between you and the dog's owner.  How would you suggest that the "other pax" on the cruise get to "know" if the dog is a service animal or not?  First you want the dog to be a service animal according to the ADA definition, but then you "don't care" about the ADA's requirement for privacy of the disabled person so that the dog has to wear a scarlet letter, just to please you?

 

Sorry, but having been an ADA compliance officer on cruise ships, I don't like the fake animals any more than folks here, but I also respect the privacy of the disabled, and their right to live as normal a life as possible, without having to meet your requirements.  Should everyone need to know if you have a colostomy bag, and can have odors around you from this disability?  Should everyone know that you have Asperger's syndrome, and may frequently yell out obscenities, and are not just some drunk?

 

It is the business owner's decision as to whether a service animal affects the essential nature of their business, but they don't have to advertise when a service animal is present in the business.

Reported for rude member directed post.

 

Edited April 1, 2023 by LindaS272

[chengkp75]

1 minute ago, Peregrina651 said:

 

Not over the PA, but complaints could be replied to with a simple phrase, "We are aware that there are service animals aboard the ship at this time and we will talk with the owners about their behavior"  -- and then actually go have that conversation, with all owners who are aboard at the time.

That would be fine, and that addresses the issues I mention, of the "code of conduct", but the poster I was responding to, implied that everyone onboard should be notified that any dogs seen onboard are "certified" service animals.

[SJD117]

5 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

If you go into a store or restaurant at home, and there is a dog sitting under the table, are you entitled to know whether the dog is a service animal or not?  That is between the dog's owner and the business owner, not you.  If you have a legitimate concern about the dog, such as an allergy or fear, then that is between you and the business owner, not between you and the dog's owner.  How would you suggest that the "other pax" on the cruise get to "know" if the dog is a service animal or not?  First you want the dog to be a service animal according to the ADA definition, but then you "don't care" about the ADA's requirement for privacy of the disabled person so that the dog has to wear a scarlet letter, just to please you?

 

Sorry, but having been an ADA compliance officer on cruise ships, I don't like the fake animals any more than folks here, but I also respect the privacy of the disabled, and their right to live as normal a life as possible, without having to meet your requirements.  Should everyone need to know if you have a colostomy bag, and can have odors around you from this disability?  Should everyone know that you have Asperger's syndrome, and may frequently yell out obscenities, and are not just some drunk?

 

It is the business owner's decision as to whether a service animal affects the essential nature of their business, but they don't have to advertise when a service animal is present in the business.

Reported for member-directed post and gratuitous comments about the member, especially the "don't care" statement.

[chengkp75]

15 minutes ago, Level six said:

How can they require proof of accessible cabin? 

No cruise line, nor any hotel in the US, can ask you to prove that you have a disability that requires an accessible room.  All they can do is ask the customer to "attest" that they require an accessible room.

[chengkp75]

6 minutes ago, SJD117 said:

especially the "don't care" statement.

 

37 minutes ago, LindaS272 said:

I don’t care that the ADA doesn’t require ID for an animal

Don't really care if you've reported my post, but just so you know, this is what they said, and I think it says "I don't care" that the ADA doesn't require identification.

 

Please show me the "gratuitous" comments about the poster.

Edited April 1, 2023 by chengkp75

[SJD117]

12 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

 

Don't really care if you've reported my post, but just so you know, this is what they said, and I think it says "I don't care" that the ADA doesn't require identification.

 

Please show me the "gratuitous" comments about the poster.

You may not care, but your comment was reported.

You twisted Linda’s statement into something altogether different. Notably, the words “scarlet letter” and “just to please you” were unnecessary and entirely gratuitous.

Edited April 1, 2023 by SJD117

[Level six]

14 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

No cruise line, nor any hotel in the US, can ask you to prove that you have a disability that requires an accessible room.  All they can do is ask the customer to "attest" that they require an accessible room.

My friend who is wheel chair bound HAS to fill out a form saying why she needs the room 

[Level six]

21 minutes ago, Peregrina651 said:

This also means that the cruise line needs to spell out in advance any restrictions on behavior -- such as sitting on the furniture, being feed from the table, etc.

And they should only have a certain amount of rooms that they must use.  Why should I have to stay in a room where a dog may have been for a week or more? 

[GUT2407]

5 minutes ago, Level six said:

My friend who is wheel chair bound HAS to fill out a form saying why she needs the room 

Never been asked why? On about a dozen lines, frequently asked to attest that I genuinely need one.

[Level six]

1 minute ago, GUT2407 said:

Never been asked why? On about a dozen lines, frequently asked to attest that I genuinely need one.

I only have second hand information, so I am sure you know more than me. Thanks

[CurlerRob]

A few folks need to take a deep breath ... let's briefly review the "bidding".

 

On Tuesday, the OP raised a question about the status of several dogs on the trip and their behaviour. Further information and pictures followed and many posters expressed their displeasure that what appeared to be ESAs or pets were onboard, as well as indicating their concerns about the behaviour of the animals.
 

Three days later, on Friday, Viking responded to the concerns on this same forum - making it very clear that only true service animals were welcome onboard. They specifically excluded allowing ESAs (which were the focus of most of the concerns).

 

As pax, we have the right to expect Viking to enforce their rules and policies. Only a bit of time will allow us to judge their performance regarding the new policy in that respect.

 

Wasn't the whole idea of the early concern to ensure that only proper service animals were to be allowed onboard? Isn't that exactly what has been accomplished with a new, clear and restrictive policy?

 

Personally, I'm gratified that Viking listened, took rapid action and communicated that action. Lots of companies fail on all three. 🍺🥌

[CurlerRob]

1 hour ago, Level six said:

My friend who is wheel chair bound HAS to fill out a form saying why she needs the room 

 

Yes. That is what "attest" means, as was stated by the Chief.

 

Having to prove disability is a whole other level and is illegal in most jurisdictions. 🍺🥌

[CurlerRob]

1 hour ago, Peregrina651 said:

 

Not over the PA, but complaints could be replied to with a simple phrase, "We are aware that there are service animals aboard the ship at this time and we will talk with the owners about their behavior"  -- and then actually go have that conversation, with all owners who are aboard at the time. This also means that the cruise line needs to spell out in advance any restrictions on behavior -- such as sitting on the furniture, being feed from the table, etc.

 

Nothing wrong with additional clarifications to the rules, but my suspicion is that if only "real" service animals were on board, actual complaints would be miniscule. As @Sunflower & The Scientistdescribed a few days ago, in her eloquent post, such objectionable behaviours would not happen - either by the animal or the owner.

 

Certainly, in my limited experience with guide dogs, they are better behaved that many pax. I've never seen one on furniture in a public place or being fed by the owner. Nor do they put their bare paws on coffee tables, unlike some other pictures that have been posted on these boards 😈. 🍺🥌