Dogs on the ship

[deec]

On another site someone was describing a woman who had brought her own battery powered BLENDER and was using it on the pool deck!!!  Perhaps she was blending her "companion dog's" breakfast and did not want the smell in her cabin!!!

I guess I will be OK with ball caps in the diningrooms vs pooches on the couches!

 

[Jim Avery]

Haha, yep, makes my Bama ball cap look better and better...😱

[DGHOC]

Karine Hagen had both of her dogs with her on the Chairman's Cruise in lieu of the Sky malarkey. I rather suppose that the Chairman's daughter is rather more entitled!

[Vineyard View]

1 hour ago, Sunflower & The Scientist said:

Thanks Vineyard View....I'm not really an expert, I just have experience. Let me say that chengkp75 did a great job of giving details on the ADA, which I did not include in my post. 

 

I just love that so many on CC are taking this seriously and communicating this to Viking. 

Completely concur regarding chengkp75 knowledge. It is always spot on. My meaning was with reference to your first hand experience. 
 

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by Vineyard View

[Vineyard View]

Been pondering this situation. 
 

How is it that airlines were able to put new rules in place not that long ago that pretty much nipped off  the menagerie they were dealing with - - and cruise lines cannot do the same thing? There really has to be a way. 

[philw1776]

23 minutes ago, DGHOC said:

Karine Hagen had both of her dogs with her on the Chairman's Cruise in lieu of the Sky malarkey. I rather suppose that the Chairman's daughter is rather more entitled!

I have zero problem with that exception to the rule.  

[Haqdeluxe]

Just now, philw1776 said:

I have zero problem with that exception to the rule.  

I suspect that if any of us expressed too much objection to Ms Hagen having her dog onboard she might just boot us off her ship! 😁

[deec]

They were aboard once when we were sailing and we never saw them out and about!  I would be they did not sit on the furniture in public areas either!

[KBs mum]

I am fairly certain that UK assistance dogs have to be able to carry out 3 tasks, guide dogs (seeing eye in US?) only have to do guiding. All have to pass a strict obedience and temperament test. Premises can ask for proof. 

Emotional support animals have no legal status or right of entry under the Equalities Act (which is a hefty bit of legislation that includes our versions of the ADA type rules) all though I admit to not having read all of it, so there might be something pertinent to the subject of dogs on ships in there. 

From memory our accessibility rules are fairly similar to the US

 

[chengkp75]

16 minutes ago, Vineyard View said:

Been pondering this situation. 
 

How is it that airlines were able to put new rules in place not that long ago that pretty much nipped off  the menagerie they were dealing with - - and cruise lines cannot do the same thing? There really has to be a way. 

As I've said, the FAA changed the regulations from the CAA to restrict the types of animals that were to be considered as ESA for air travel.  Since the ADA, which partially applies to cruise ships, does not allow protections for ESA in settings other than housing or air travel, it is only the fact that the cruise lines do not enforce the policies and procedures of the ADA that allow these dogs onboard.  Even if the passenger comes up with a "task" that the dog is supposed to perform for them, if the dog does not meet the code of conduct, or the owner does things that affect the health and safety of others, they can be required to leave the ship, just as any business in the US can require a person to leave if the service animal disrupts the business, or misbehaves.

[DGHOC]

8 minutes ago, deec said:

They were aboard once when we were sailing and we never saw them out and about!  I would be they did not sit on the furniture in public areas either!

They were very well behaved and were surrounded by admiring passengers most of the time. Though Karine was pretty much surrounded too!

[KBs mum]

2 hours ago, Jim Avery said:

Haha, yep, makes my Bama ball cap look better and better...😱

I believe 'Go Bama!' to be a suitable response? 

 

But seriously, expecting the galleys to provide food suitable for dogs? No way would I feed any of it to our 'non service' but much loved woofer. His food is high quality specialist stuff. There is too much human friendly but dog incompatible items and ingredients. The specialist stuff ls

inexpensive as no cereal or water padding. We pack dried meal portions in freezer bags when away from home. More proof that the hound in question is not a genuine service/assistance dog

[jasardeax]

11 minutes ago, KBs mum said:

I believe 'Go Bama!' to be a suitable response? 

 

No, the only suitable

response is;

 

             ROLL TIDE!

[Jim Avery]

KBM, actually the proper greeting for a Bama fan is "Roll Tide".  Sort of a southern version of Aloha.  Can be a greeting, a good bye, a heck yeah! or other good meanings.  As to the dog issue, I am fully with you. This just isn't right.  No kids, No casino, NO DOGS!!! of any kind except the real deal service dog.  And Viking, make it hard to even do that.   

[KBs mum]

1 minute ago, Jim Avery said:

KBM, actually the proper greeting for a Bama fan is "Roll Tide".  Sort of a southern version of Aloha.  Can be a greeting, a good bye, a heck yeah! or other good meanings.  As to the dog issue, I am fully with you. This just isn't right.  No kids, No casino, NO DOGS!!! of any kind except the real deal service dog.  And Viking, make it hard to even do that.   

'Roll Tide!' It is then. You learn something new every day

[donaldsc]

We were recently on a Viking Ocean ship and there was a person on board who had a seeing eye dog.  The dog was perfectly behaved.  When he was in the restaurant the dog lay on the floor in front of the man's feet.  We saw him around the ship and you would hardly know that he was there.  There was also a dog relief box on one of the upper decks.  The dog was better behaved than some of the people we have seen on ships.  In addition he did not try to dress inappropriately in the MDR and he definitely did not wear a baseball cap either forward or backward.

 

DON

Edited March 29, 2023 by donaldsc

[Jim Avery]

All this dog talk and no ball caps could easily segue to nude cruising......😳

[longterm]

3 hours ago, philw1776 said:

I have zero problem with that exception to the rule.  

Not me.

[longterm]

54 minutes ago, donaldsc said:

We were recently on a Viking Ocean ship and there was a person on board who had a seeing eye dog.  The dog was perfectly behaved.  When he was in the restaurant the dog lay on the floor in front of the man's feet.  We saw him around the ship and you would hardly know that he was there.  There was also a dog relief box on one of the upper decks.  The dog was better behaved than some of the people we have seen on ships.  In addition he did not try to dress inappropriately in the MDR and he definitely did not wear a baseball cap either forward or backward.

 

DON

Seeing-eye dogs are one thing; they're highly trained, used to being in public settings, trained to remain on the floor at their master's feet in a restaurant or public situation. 

 

[I say this as a dog owner and dog lover] But little yappy dogs are another thing; while it's one thing for someone to need extra emotional support, but when it intrudes on my peace and comfort on a cruise for which I paid significant money--then I'd have a problem.

So far, we've not seen any dogs on board any of the cruises we've been on; we're headed on another river cruise (Grand European) in October; I can't imagine a dog on those river ships.

[longterm]

9 hours ago, TayanaLorna said:

Oh no, if you do that my DH will have to bring his recliner chair!

Great idea! I'm going to bring my emotional support reclining couch and my emotional support throw blanket.

[longterm]

9 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

I don't believe I've posted regarding service animals on the Viking forum, so I'll try to answer some of the questions/observations that I see in this thread.

 

First off, ESA's (emotional support animals) are not covered by the ADA, and so there is no requirement for a foreign flag cruise ship to allow them onboard.  The only areas that ESA's are guaranteed protection, in the US, are the Equal Housing Act (provides protection for owners of ESA's in housing) and the Civil Aviation Act (though this has been recently restricted as to ESA's on aircraft).

 

Per the ADA, the only place that a Service Animal should be is on the floor, or in the owner's arms (this allows for diabetes detection dogs to be close enough to sense the owner's breath for signs of keto acidosis).

 

Next, there is no requirement in the US ADA for a service animal to have any identification (harness or vest) on it at any time.

 

Why can cruise lines only ask two questions regarding service animals, while the airlines have restricted types of ESA's allowed?  Because, as stated above, Service Animals are covered by the ADA, while ESA's are covered by the EHA and CAA, and the CAA has been amended or had the regulations changed by the agency involved.

 

Regarding allergies, under the law of the ADA, the ability of a person to have a Service Animal trumps allergies, though the owner of the establishment should make as many concessions to those allergic as possible.

 

Regarding the dog's toilet needs, this has been addressed by others, but the main point of contention is that Service Animals are (or should be) trained to only "go" on command, while ESA's and pets will typically "go" when the urge hits them.

 

Per the ADA, there is no requirement for Service Animals to have any formal training, or certification, but there is a "code of conduct" that the ADA spells out, where if the Animal does not behave according to this code, the establishment can ask the owner to leave.

 

Now, having said all that, regarding the ADA and Service Animals, everyone should understand that SCOTUS has ruled, in Spector v NCL, around 2005, that while foreign flag cruise ships must comply with the ADA in certain areas (such as not discriminating against the disabled, and requiring accessibility within certain limits), that the "internal policies and procedures" of the cruise ship with regards to accessibility (areas such as policies about where and how Service Animals are handled) is up to the cruise line, and do not have to follow ADA requirements.  This was stated as being the case until Congress specifically mentions "foreign flag cruise ships" in the ADA, and in the intervening years, Congress has not acted to amend the ADA.  Many of the "rights and protections" that US citizens take for granted in their everyday life, end once you walk up the gangway to a foreign flag cruise ship.

 

So, know that you cannot complain to Viking about Service Animal behavior based on the ADA's "code of conduct", but given the lengthy description given in a previous post, there may be grounds for a complaint.  Viking may need to adjust their terms as well, if they wish to more closely align with the ADA's code of conduct.

 

Viking also needs to instruct their personnel that when a dog owning passenger presents their animal as a "Service Animal", the answer to the question, "what task does the animal provide for the owner", cannot be that the "mere presence of the animal" provides a service, as that is defined in the ADA as an ESA, and they are not granted protection under the ADA.  Even PTSD Service Animals, whose main job is to calm the owner, must be shown to do certain "tasks" like blocking the person from walking into situations where the dog senses that the stress level will trigger a PTSD attack, or licking the owner to signal that the situation requires his/her attention to limit stress.

What a great post; thank you for clarifying many questions that I had. 

[OnTheJourney]

8 hours ago, OneSixtyToOne said:

Hoping to see Finse onboard one day.

She was on the Invitational cruise with Karine and her husband. Can't recall the name of the other dog they had with them.  People mobbed them wherever they went! Torstein was along on that one as well. 

 

Oops...just scrolled back and saw that a few of our "Sky survivors" already mentioned about the dogs on the Mars. They were in the living room area on disembarkation day - got lots of attention. The person that got the least attention was Karine's husband! 

Edited March 29, 2023 by OnTheJourney

[OnTheJourney]

5 hours ago, Haqdeluxe said:

I suspect that if any of us expressed too much objection to Ms Hagen having her dog onboard she might just boot us off her ship!

There'd be absolutely no reason to. Those 'Viking dogs' are so well behaved. Far better than some of the passengers for sure. 

Edited March 29, 2023 by OnTheJourney

[ericosmith]

This is probably insensitive but here goes...I can actually understand the rational for some emotional support animal when flying.  I say that because there are certain situations flying is a virtual necessity due to family emergencies or perhaps even the desire to travel to a location that would not be accessible without flying.  Many people have a genuine fear of flying.

 

Cruising on the other hand is an entirely optional activity.  If you need to have emotional support to be on a cruise ship, should you really be there in the first place?

[Lady Meer]

9 hours ago, longterm said:

So far, we've not seen any dogs on board any of the cruises we've been on; we're headed on another river cruise (Grand European) in October; I can't imagine a dog on those river ships.

There were 2 on our Mississippi cruise - a guide dog for a blind lady and a small one in a basket on a walking frame.