Must everything be so difficult?

[*Miss G*]

Just now, ontheweb said:

It was a contributing factor.

 

If getting rid of the cost of doing business with travel agencies would help the bottom line, don't you think at least some of the present cruise lines would try that?

 

I can’t see where eliminating TA’s is in their near future.  Or even far future. lol. But I don’t have any in-depth knowledge of costs and revenues to even begin to comment on the bottom line.  Sorry!

[Roz]

The agents that work for the airlines aren't any better.  I've spent hours on the phone with AA trying to sort out messes they created. 

[Waltershipman]

4 hours ago, Hlitner said:

That was Renaissance Cruise lines.  They had 8 ships, R1-R8 which are now referred to as the R ships.  The vessels are still sailing with Oceania and Azamara.   Renaissance only allowed direct bookings, had a ship-wide no-smoking policy, and had a 16 year old minimum passenger age.

 

Have

Sailed on Renaissance early on and the beds were not at all comfy

[Toofarfromthesea]

I considered booking a cruise on Azamara, but I'm a big guy and the tiny showers were a deal breaker for me.

[Hlitner]

1 hour ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

I considered booking a cruise on Azamara, but I'm a big guy and the tiny showers were a deal breaker for me.

I am not a big guy, but those tiny bathrooms and showers are just not up to the standard one should get from so-called "premium" cruise lines who charge premium prices.  

 

Hank

[MISTER 67]

8 hours ago, ontheweb said:

I remember reading a post by @Hlitner once about a cruise line that adopted that strategy, only direct bookings and no use of travel agents. They soon went bankrupt. Perhaps if he sees this post, he can give the name of the cruise line.

Probably Renaissance, we sailed with them on the R-1 in 1999 doing a Greek Island cruise from Istanbul to Athens with great 3 day hotel packages in both towns, the rates were great and included round trip air from NYC. 9-11 hurt them badly.

Edited November 23, 2023 by MISTER 67

[Waltershipman]

2 minutes ago, MISTER 67 said:

Probably Renaissance.

Yes correct 

[ontheweb]

3 hours ago, *Miss G* said:

 

I can’t see where eliminating TA’s is in their near future.  Or even far future. lol. But I don’t have any in-depth knowledge of costs and revenues to even begin to comment on the bottom line.  Sorry!

Think of it this way, every mailing we get from any cruise line always says to call their 800 number, book on their website, or consult your travel professional. They are actively promoting travel agents.

 

I read several cruise line boards on these forums, and all of them have complaints about the results of calling and/or how bad the cruise line's website is. If they did not avail themselves of TAs for bookings, they would have to hire a massive number of new employees who would be even more inexperienced than their present employees.

[dockman]

When the airlines first began to cut travel agents commissions and later eliminate them there were many agent groups who thoght that it would not last.  They were very wrong.  Now the airlines have most booking online as well as doing their own seat assignments and other tasks that the airlines reps and travel agents used to provide.

 

One major factor in the airlines decision to stop paying agents commissions was the number of agencies who were willing to rebate half or so of their commission to get the business that was going direct to the airlines.  I believe it was Crandall president of American who opined that if agents are giving away half of the commission we are paying them then we must be paying them too much....it is not totally different from all the agents who now rebate a big chunk of their commission in order to get people to book with them instead of direct with cruise lines.

 

Cruise lines are more complex but at the same time the technology as well as the desire/ability to book online is increasing.  Every year the percentage of direct bookings increases a bit more.  As the bean counters look at cruise expense/revenue lines in the never ending search to decrease expenses and raise revenues one expense  that jumps out is agent commissions. 

 

IMO the cruise lines have done a horrible job of making their online booking engines/websites/technology user friendly...just look at the horrible roll outs of things like the medalions which after years still apparently is full of bugs and glitches.  But....one of these days that will change and the cruiseline sites will be fixed to make online booking a simple process for anyone with even a bit of computer savy...which of course increases every day as more younger people book cruises and more of the not so savy older clients will pass away.

 

I suspect in a few more years the direct bookings numbers will continue to increase.....a lot of the old time travel agents are fading away and not a lot of young people are choosing a travel agent career. ,,,and who can blame them as the pay is generally low and the old days of getting offered all sorts of special fam trips, comp or greatly reduced price agent rates are rapidly disappearing.

 

Why the major cruise lines don't hire or buy the software used by  the major online booking companies is a mystery.  While their sites are not yet perfect they seem light years better than the cruise lines sites.

 

Bottom line:  The days of travel agents being paid to "take over" a booking that was made direct with the cruise line are numbered.  Once the cruise line figures out how to properly use technology to eliminate a lot of cruise line staff expense as well as travel agent commissions they will do it.  Eventually I suspect that the cruise sites will have virtual agents who with some AI help will be able to answer any and all questions, give an HD video tour of any room or area of the ship better than most any agent.

 

United Airlines for years told travel agents over and over that we are "partners in travel"....then they found a way to eliminate them and they did it and have never looked back.  Those who think nothing will change need to read "who moved my cheese".

[dockman]

Cruisers specifically are becoming more comfortable booking on their own. Phocuswright's U.S. Cruise Market Report 2021-2025 found that direct bookings increased to 22% in 2021, up from 10% in 2020, and direct offline sales increased to 27% from 14%. The report cited as causes reduced availability of travel advisors, shorter and more easily online-bookable itineraries, and past cruisers being comfortable booking directly.

In a year of testing its platform, Cruisebound found that 91% of purchases were made on a mobile device and that the average customer was 36 years old.

[retird]

On 11/22/2023 at 7:17 PM, canadarocks said:

Just venting folks... but after spending 6+ hours getting a great Black Friday deal that my TA could not get, I attempted to get the booking switched over to her. As final payment is due soon, we both knew time was of the essence. HA can take forever to transfer bookings (1st hand experience here), so she transferred me the necessary form and instructions and I filled it out and sent it to HA immediately. We have done this before. This was a few days ago.

 

Last night at 9:56pm I received an email from HA stating that they could not transfer the booking. Initial Panic.. but knowing that Final Payment was soon, I was upset, but prepared for the worst news in that there probably wasn't enough time to do the transfer.

 

Then the next lines of the email, too convoluted and confusing to share here..... said that my Travel Agent should contact them orally to allow the switch. Because they really don't want me to miss out on using my TA. 

 

Forwarded the email to her.... utter confusion on her end as the transfer form has always been "the way things are done with HA". But she called and now all is right with the world. The point of this post? If all she needed to do was call..... why on earth put us both through the hassle of the transfer form?

Question.   Why could your TA not get the Black Friday deal that you could get.?  In a post earlier , you absolved your TA of any fault and said the whole confusion mess was caused by you not being clear with your TA on what to book (non refundable).  I dont understand why now all your blame is directed at HAL

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by retird

[KAKcruiser]

Nobody cares as much as you do.  Only you will keep going until you get what you want.

[zgscl]

11 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Sad failure.  My understanding it was a combination of bad policy and bad luck.  To being with, the company was somewhat under financed.  Their no children policy was, perhaps, ahead of its time but limited their market.  And by not using travel/cruise agencies, they did save paying commissions, but alienated the travel agent industry that handled about 80% of cruise bookings.  And then 9-11 caused many folks to stop traveling/cruising and they could not survive.  

 

One interesting thing about that line were their ships.  They all had the same exact design, right down to the soap dishes.  This was done by the owners with the thinking that crew members could easily move between the ships with no need for additional training.  DW and I actually had breakfast with the marine architect (a British gent) who designed the vessels, and he told us the tale.   He actually sketched out the ship design on a restaurant napkin (while out to lunch with the owners) and that led to the order for 8 identical vessels.  The lounge area outside the alternative restaurants was designed to look somewhat like the London men's club where they had that luncheon.  That Marine Architect was also the person who came up with the design for the Sovereign of the Seas (the first ship with a large atrium) which led to him being knighted by the Queen.

 

Hank

Fantastic ships too. Sailed on R3 as Pacific Princess and thoroughly enjoyed it. Very comfortable ~700 pax vessel with roughly 350 crew. I never remember waiting for anything or a crowd anywhere. 

[zgscl]

3 hours ago, dockman said:

Cruisers specifically are becoming more comfortable booking on their own. Phocuswright's U.S. Cruise Market Report 2021-2025 found that direct bookings increased to 22% in 2021, up from 10% in 2020, and direct offline sales increased to 27% from 14%. The report cited as causes reduced availability of travel advisors, shorter and more easily online-bookable itineraries, and past cruisers being comfortable booking directly.

In a year of testing its platform, Cruisebound found that 91% of purchases were made on a mobile device and that the average customer was 36 years old.

Thanks for this! So in other words travel agents (including OTAs) accounted for slightly over half of all bookings. That is a huge percent of their business. I wonder what percent of bookings were direct for the airlines at the time. If I have time I’ll have to research that.
 

I think the first step would be reduced commissions, or reduced group commissions. Marriot reduced group commission down to 7% and all of the other chains quickly followed suit.  Groups on cruises still get both commission and a tour conductor credit (even if it is a group that is not being led by anyone such as a large agency or consortia blocking group space for their independent travelers to book into).They could also try to restrict some of the bigger agencies rebating the commission in some form of cash or other gift card. I guess time will tell, but I think there is a place for TAs still, and we haven’t seen the slightest indication of cruise lines tightening the rains. And hopefully they don’t as I think TAs can provide enormous value particularly for inexperienced cruisers and those looking for something they might not necessarily know about. 

[zgscl]

1 hour ago, KAKcruiser said:

Nobody cares as much as you do.  Only you will keep going until you get what you want.

100%! Always aggressively monitor your bookings and look for price drops. 

[zgscl]

1 hour ago, retird said:

Question.   Why could your TA not get the Black Friday deal that you could get.?  In a post earlier , you absolved your TA of any fault and said the whole confusion mess was caused by you not being clear with your TA on what to book (non refundable).  I dont understand why now all your blame is directed at HAL

 

I think op came back and said it was a communication error. They never book non refundable deposits and didn’t specify they wanted that one. The agent knowing them didn’t even look at the non-refundable option knowing they don’t book that. But because it is almost final payment OP was willing to do it to take the savings. 

[dockman]

2 hours ago, zgscl said:

Thanks for this! So in other words travel agents (including OTAs) accounted for slightly over half of all bookings. That is a huge percent of their business. I wonder what percent of bookings were direct for the airlines at the time. If I have time I’ll have to research that.
 

I think the first step would be reduced commissions, or reduced group commissions. Marriot reduced group commission down to 7% and all of the other chains quickly followed suit.  Groups on cruises still get both commission and a tour conductor credit (even if it is a group that is not being led by anyone such as a large agency or consortia blocking group space for their independent travelers to book into).They could also try to restrict some of the bigger agencies rebating the commission in some form of cash or other gift card. I guess time will tell, but I think there is a place for TAs still, and we haven’t seen the slightest indication of cruise lines tightening the rains. And hopefully they don’t as I think TAs can provide enormous value particularly for inexperienced cruisers and those looking for something they might not necessarily know about. 

 

I think that the number of travel agents that really know the various products including cruises that they sell from first hand experience is dwindling.  Once upon a time travel agents were treated to some very good agent rates and fam trips so they could actually experience the products first hand and thereafter provide their clients with their expertise.  But those "perks" are rapidly either getting worse or disappearing and of course the younger agents likely can't afford to go on a bunch of trips to learn the products without getting big discounts/comps/fam trips..  On the flip side you can now go to you tube and watch all kinds of videos, some very well and professionally done, others just average people sharing their videos and opinions.  

 

Once upon a time if you became a travel agent you maybe did not make a lot of $$ but the perks were very very attractive.  Now the pay is still lousy and the perks are a shadow of what they once were.  I would guess that a lot of the outside/home agents are people who did go on a lot of cruises, liked it and thought i can share my experience and expertise and make a few bucks selling cruises.  Many of them have been reasonablly succesful but a lot of them quickly find out that going on a lot of cruises and selling and booking a lot of cruises for the general public can be a real challenge.  As it was once said in the travel biz, those that can sell will sell.  Those who can't sell will rebate bug chunks  of  their commissions to "buy" bookings. 

 

Some do it to make a few bucks. Some do it in the hopes that their volume may get them invited on fam trips or get agent rates or worst case they make a commission booking their own and maybe families cruises.  While there are certainly some very good travel agents left they are a dying breed and every year more and more of them retire, die,or  just get tired of doing a lot of work only to have another agent offer to rebate a big portion of their commission to take "their" client.

 

There are also plenty of agents who do a lot of work, give good solid advice based on years of experience and then the client never calls back and they later find they booked via an OTC or big box store who gave them a gift card or OBC etc.  Some agents have tried charging an upfront fee that is refunded when clients book.....but it seems most people still think that travel agents provide a free service and are unwilling to pay a fee...more likely they ask for/demand a rebate.







 

[ontheweb]

9 hours ago, dockman said:

When the airlines first began to cut travel agents commissions and later eliminate them there were many agent groups who thoght that it would not last.  They were very wrong.  Now the airlines have most booking online as well as doing their own seat assignments and other tasks that the airlines reps and travel agents used to provide.

 

One major factor in the airlines decision to stop paying agents commissions was the number of agencies who were willing to rebate half or so of their commission to get the business that was going direct to the airlines.  I believe it was Crandall president of American who opined that if agents are giving away half of the commission we are paying them then we must be paying them too much....it is not totally different from all the agents who now rebate a big chunk of their commission in order to get people to book with them instead of direct with cruise lines.

 

Cruise lines are more complex but at the same time the technology as well as the desire/ability to book online is increasing.  Every year the percentage of direct bookings increases a bit more.  As the bean counters look at cruise expense/revenue lines in the never ending search to decrease expenses and raise revenues one expense  that jumps out is agent commissions. 

 

IMO the cruise lines have done a horrible job of making their online booking engines/websites/technology user friendly...just look at the horrible roll outs of things like the medalions which after years still apparently is full of bugs and glitches.  But....one of these days that will change and the cruiseline sites will be fixed to make online booking a simple process for anyone with even a bit of computer savy...which of course increases every day as more younger people book cruises and more of the not so savy older clients will pass away.

 

I suspect in a few more years the direct bookings numbers will continue to increase.....a lot of the old time travel agents are fading away and not a lot of young people are choosing a travel agent career. ,,,and who can blame them as the pay is generally low and the old days of getting offered all sorts of special fam trips, comp or greatly reduced price agent rates are rapidly disappearing.

 

Why the major cruise lines don't hire or buy the software used by  the major online booking companies is a mystery.  While their sites are not yet perfect they seem light years better than the cruise lines sites.

 

Bottom line:  The days of travel agents being paid to "take over" a booking that was made direct with the cruise line are numbered.  Once the cruise line figures out how to properly use technology to eliminate a lot of cruise line staff expense as well as travel agent commissions they will do it.  Eventually I suspect that the cruise sites will have virtual agents who with some AI help will be able to answer any and all questions, give an HD video tour of any room or area of the ship better than most any agent.

 

United Airlines for years told travel agents over and over that we are "partners in travel"....then they found a way to eliminate them and they did it and have never looked back.  Those who think nothing will change need to read "who moved my cheese".

There is a major difference between travel by airplane and going on a cruise. The former is often a necessity, while the latter is basically leisure travel. Just doing away with commissions for travel agents is not going to work the same way for the cruise industry. With all the cutbacks they are making to try to reduce their massive debts, why do you think they have not gone the route of trying to eliminate the travel agents?

 

If anything eliminates travel agents, it will be the after affects of the Covid shutdown. I know the TA that we use who is the president of his company has told me that if he had known at the beginning of the pandemic what the results would be, he would have got out of the business. He basically laid off all but one employee and only lately has been beginning to bring employees back.

[Caribbean Chris]

6 hours ago, zgscl said:

I think op came back and said it was a communication error. They never book non refundable deposits and didn’t specify they wanted that one. The agent knowing them didn’t even look at the non-refundable option knowing they don’t book that. But because it is almost final payment OP was willing to do it to take the savings. 

And OP booked direct, and TA had OP fill out a transfer form, and HAL emailed to ask OP to have the TA call them to (successfully) complete the transfer very close to final payment.
 

Happy outcome, OP saved a lot of $ and got a nice OBC from TA.  But somehow HAL became the bad guy requiring a “Must everything be so difficult?” post to vent….Puzzled.

[zgscl]

9 hours ago, dockman said:

 

I think that the number of travel agents that really know the various products including cruises that they sell from first hand experience is dwindling.  Once upon a time travel agents were treated to some very good agent rates and fam trips so they could actually experience the products first hand and thereafter provide their clients with their expertise.  But those "perks" are rapidly either getting worse or disappearing and of course the younger agents likely can't afford to go on a bunch of trips to learn the products without getting big discounts/comps/fam trips..  On the flip side you can now go to you tube and watch all kinds of videos, some very well and professionally done, others just average people sharing their videos and opinions.  

 

Once upon a time if you became a travel agent you maybe did not make a lot of $$ but the perks were very very attractive.  Now the pay is still lousy and the perks are a shadow of what they once were.  I would guess that a lot of the outside/home agents are people who did go on a lot of cruises, liked it and thought i can share my experience and expertise and make a few bucks selling cruises.  Many of them have been reasonablly succesful but a lot of them quickly find out that going on a lot of cruises and selling and booking a lot of cruises for the general public can be a real challenge.  As it was once said in the travel biz, those that can sell will sell.  Those who can't sell will rebate bug chunks  of  their commissions to "buy" bookings. 

 

Some do it to make a few bucks. Some do it in the hopes that their volume may get them invited on fam trips or get agent rates or worst case they make a commission booking their own and maybe families cruises.  While there are certainly some very good travel agents left they are a dying breed and every year more and more of them retire, die,or  just get tired of doing a lot of work only to have another agent offer to rebate a big portion of their commission to take "their" client.

 

There are also plenty of agents who do a lot of work, give good solid advice based on years of experience and then the client never calls back and they later find they booked via an OTC or big box store who gave them a gift card or OBC etc.  Some agents have tried charging an upfront fee that is refunded when clients book.....but it seems most people still think that travel agents provide a free service and are unwilling to pay a fee...more likely they ask for/demand a rebate.







 

This is really the truth. I always found that I knew more than most of the TAs that we worked with. I finally decided I should look into becoming a TA since i didn’t get much value out of having one. What shocked me the most is for roughly $25/month plus the cost of a business license in your state you too can be a travel agent. Depending on the host there are no or minimal requirements. And some of the questions I see on the TA forums are shockingly uninformed and some of these folks should not be booking their own travel let alone being responsible for a client. I see a lot of them who sign up thinking they will get all sorts of discounts on their own travel and then find out there are sales or training requirements with basically every vendor to qualify for what is usually a very small discount that might work on a single trip. And unless you are booking all of your clients on high end cruises or suites the commission money (which has to be split with the host agency) is relatively small, and you have to service the booking for the entire time from when they book until when they travel. 

[Toofarfromthesea]

22 hours ago, Hlitner said:

I am not a big guy, but those tiny bathrooms and showers are just not up to the standard one should get from so-called "premium" cruise lines who charge premium prices.  

 

Hank

 

When I mentioned the tiny showers and how it was a deal breaker for me on the Azamara board the faithful actually got mad and a little insulting.

[Waltershipman]

3 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

When I mentioned the tiny showers and how it was a deal breaker for me on the Azamara board the faithful actually got mad and a little insulting.

It is sometimes difficult to know in advance if someone will take issue with a post

 

Sometimes humorous i find it

[Hlitner]

20 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

When I mentioned the tiny showers and how it was a deal breaker for me on the Azamara board the faithful actually got mad and a little insulting.

Such is life on social media.  But one cannot dispute the fact that the R ship bathrooms (in the regular balcony and outside cabins) are not up to the standard one would expect from a "premium" line.  One tendency we have noticed on multiple CC Boards are the ability of "cheerleaders" to defend their favorite line/ship without being honest about shortcomings.

 

Hank

[canadarocks]

OP here with one last post about this.

 

After a lot of time spent having my TA cancel my initial booking and me doing the Black Friday booking myself.... I received nothing from HA confirming anything. 40+ minutes online with a HA rep -> 30+ minutes on the phone with a different HA rep -> 10+ minutes with a HA supervisor -> No email verification of any kind that the booking actually exists for another 3+ hours.

 

And then filling out a so-called required TA Transfer form that ends up being totally unnecessary.... It was a very long day.

 

Just because you reach your destination, doesn't mean the journey has to be difficult.... (Deep Thoughts with Jack Handy🤪 ) 

[Waltershipman]

14 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Such is life on social media.  But one cannot dispute the fact that the R ship bathrooms (in the regular balcony and outside cabins) are not up to the standard one would expect from a "premium" line.  One tendency we have noticed on multiple CC Boards are the ability of "cheerleaders" to defend their favorite line/ship without being honest about shortcomings.

 

Hank

Hank my favorite line is usually the one i am.on the exception for the time being is EJ is our favorite 

 

My daughter is set to go on Azamara pursuit next year and i hope it is as GOOD as when we went on it when it was part of RCCL