Passports or enhanced drivers license?

[jimbo5544]

4 minutes ago, TheLargeFamily said:

I wonder how often people are turned away at the terminal when they bring the wrong travel documents or the wrong state ID... As we did. 

 

I'm so grateful for the nudge to bring my husband's birth certificates. 

 

 

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

[TheLargeFamily]

Also, I wonder why carnival cannot note this during the online check in process? It has our state of residency in its system. Can't it note the handful of states with an EDL. 

 

I don't intend to blame Carnival, but this would be helpful for the occasional traveler. 

[sparks1093]

12 minutes ago, TheLargeFamily said:

I wonder how often people are turned away at the terminal when they bring the wrong travel documents or the wrong state ID... As we did. 

 

I'm so grateful for the nudge to bring my husband's birth certificates. 

 

 

Unfortunately it does happen every cruise. The terminal staff does a great job trying to help get the documentation if they can (such as getting a birth certificate faxed to the port) but at the end of the day it is still the traveler's responsibility to have the necessary documentation. 

[sparks1093]

7 minutes ago, TheLargeFamily said:

Also, I wonder why carnival cannot note this during the online check in process? It has our state of residency in its system. Can't it note the handful of states with an EDL. 

 

I don't intend to blame Carnival, but this would be helpful for the occasional traveler. 

There are so many things to consider it would be impossible to list them all for the check in page. They do include this in the FAQ though: 

A driver's license with a gold circle with star cutout in the right upper corner is a Real ID driver's license; it is not an Enhanced Driver's license and cannot be used as proof of citizenship but can be used as picture identification. A Mobile/Digital version of an EDL is not an acceptable form of travel documentation.

 

[jimbo5544]

13 minutes ago, TheLargeFamily said:

Also, I wonder why carnival cannot note this during the online check in process? It has our state of residency in its system. Can't it note the handful of states with an EDL. 

 

I don't intend to blame Carnival, but this would be helpful for the occasional traveler. 

Listing out the various scenarios would just confuse people more.  If people book on their own, they take on that responsibility.  If they use a PVP or TA, then the knowledge is not needed. You removed the lack of by using someone who KNOWS.

[mz-s]

38 minutes ago, TheLargeFamily said:

Also, I wonder why carnival cannot note this during the online check in process? It has our state of residency in its system. Can't it note the handful of states with an EDL. 

 

I don't intend to blame Carnival, but this would be helpful for the occasional traveler. 

 

All this information is in black and white on Carnival's website. If you don't read the FAQ pages what makes you think you'd read it during check-in? They can't force people to read the information.

Edited April 2 by mz-s

[aborgman]

14 hours ago, nwcruiselover said:

EDL’s also apply to Mexico and some Caribbean nations covered by the Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative.

 

The US will accept them when returning from those countries, but last I knew several of those countries wouldn't accept them for entry.

[aborgman]

1 hour ago, sparks1093 said:

 

So they actually analyzed each travel situation, including the actual risk to the national security (the paramount reason for the regulations to begin with) and provided alternatives where they could.

 

 

Nope.
 

In the past - nothing at all was required... then as global security changed in the 1960s-2001, each travel situation changed.

 

... and generally with no analysis at all, and with economics the biggest driver.

 

You used to be able to go to Canada/Mexico or a cruise with just a DL and birth certificate.

 

2001 changed that... but the reason the cruise industry got to stay the same wasn't a careful security analysis. It was money and lobbying by the cruise industry.

 

[sparks1093]

7 minutes ago, aborgman said:

 

The US will accept them when returning from those countries, but last I knew several of those countries wouldn't accept them for entry.

The only places that don't accept them (AFAIK) are those that require a full passport and those are Cuba and Martinique. 

[aborgman]

42 minutes ago, TheLargeFamily said:

Also, I wonder why carnival cannot note this during the online check in process?

 

Because Carnival apparently hires people with no IT skills to run and manage their IT department. They can't even keep their sales website functioning 50% of the time.

 

Their IT system is the "McDonald's Ice Cream Machine" of the internet.

 

If they added extra functionality - it wouldn't work anyway.

[sparks1093]

10 minutes ago, aborgman said:

 

 

Nope.
 

In the past - nothing at all was required... then as global security changed in the 1960s-2001, each travel situation changed.

 

... and generally with no analysis at all, and with economics the biggest driver.

 

You used to be able to go to Canada/Mexico or a cruise with just a DL and birth certificate.

 

2001 changed that... but the reason the cruise industry got to stay the same wasn't a careful security analysis. It was money and lobbying by the cruise industry.

 

Sorry, I read the proposed regulations and it does say specifically that US citizens on a closed loop cruise present a low risk to the national security. Just who did the cruise industry lobby? The regulations were written by DHS and State Department employees, not Congress. (And you are incorrect in saying nothing was required- a passport was always required, by law, but Customs officers had the ability to waive that requirement as long as they were satisfied with what the traveler had. And they still have that discretion.)

Edited April 2 by sparks1093

[sparks1093]

19 minutes ago, mz-s said:

 

All this information is in black and white on Carnival's website. If you don't read the FAQ pages what makes you think you'd read it during check-in? They can't force people to read the information.

The problem is people read until they think they have the answer. Learned this myself the hard way. When we first cruised I wondered about tipping, so I read the cruise line's FAQ. In response to that question it said "tipping is not required". So we went on the cruise and lo and behold a daily service charge was added and fortunately it was only a two night cruise since I hadn't budgeted for that. Went back to the FAQ and the next question was about service charges and the fact that they were added daily. The quote that I posted above from the FAQ is several paragraphs down from where it talks about EDLs being sufficient, so if someone reads that and believes that their REAL ID is an EDL they would stop reading, because they have the answer to their question. 

[mz-s]

5 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

The problem is people read until they think they have the answer. Learned this myself the hard way. When we first cruised I wondered about tipping, so I read the cruise line's FAQ. In response to that question it said "tipping is not required". So we went on the cruise and lo and behold a daily service charge was added and fortunately it was only a two night cruise since I hadn't budgeted for that. Went back to the FAQ and the next question was about service charges and the fact that they were added daily. The quote that I posted above from the FAQ is several paragraphs down from where it talks about EDLs being sufficient, so if someone reads that and believes that their REAL ID is an EDL they would stop reading, because they have the answer to their question. 

 

And there is nothing Carnival can do about that. They can tattoo it to people's eyelids so they see it when they're sleeping and people would still not read it. Anybody who has ever written documentation knows this to be gospel truth.

[sparks1093]

4 minutes ago, mz-s said:

 

And there is nothing Carnival can do about that. They can tattoo it to people's eyelids so they see it when they're sleeping and people would still not read it. Anybody who has ever written documentation knows this to be gospel truth.

Exactly and this is why referring folks to the website is just as pointless since they would only read what they want to, anyway. At least asking here folks can add those extra details.

[aborgman]

10 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

Sorry, I read the proposed regulations and it does say specifically that US citizens on a closed loop cruise present a low risk to the national security. Just who did the cruise industry lobby? The regulations were written by DHS and State Department employees, not Congress. 

 

 

The proposed regulation... that went into effect 6 years after they closed the land border to DL/Birth certificate, while keeping cruises using DL/Birth certificate.

 

...and if you look through the analyses they used to make the decision in the 2007 regulation - it's largely related to costs.

 

Loss in consumer surplus, Total Costs for U.S. Travelers Over the Period of Analysis,  Probability Distributions of Total Welfare Losses, etc. are all of the analysis.

 

...as for who did they lobby? Congress, DHS, CBP... almost ALL of the financial information related to cruises came from cruise line industry groups, and they were significant submitters in the "public comments" phase.

[aborgman]

7 minutes ago, mz-s said:

 

And there is nothing Carnival can do about that. They can tattoo it to people's eyelids so they see it when they're sleeping and people would still not read it. Anybody who has ever written documentation knows this to be gospel truth.

 

Eh - there are no guarantees out there - but UI/UX design and the layout of information and how it is presented can absolutely have a large affect on what percentage of people extract and retain the necessary information.

 

You can't make it idiot proof - but you can make it more idiot resistant.

[sparks1093]

8 minutes ago, aborgman said:

 

 

The proposed regulation... that went into effect 6 years after they closed the land border to DL/Birth certificate, while keeping cruises using DL/Birth certificate.

 

...and if you look through the analyses they used to make the decision in the 2007 regulation - it's largely related to costs.

 

Loss in consumer surplus, Total Costs for U.S. Travelers Over the Period of Analysis,  Probability Distributions of Total Welfare Losses, etc. are all of the analysis.

 

...as for who did they lobby? Congress, DHS, CBP... almost ALL of the financial information related to cruises came from cruise line industry groups, and they were significant submitters in the "public comments" phase.

Cruise remained DL/BC because the traveler could be vetted (and is vetted) during the cruise. And yes, all of those factors were considered because federal law requires them to be considered but the main driver was the risk to the national security. Border communities suffered until options to the passport were put in place, and that was known when the regulations were written. If you mean "lobby" by providing input, sure, I can agree with that because everyone has the right to "lobby" proposed federal regulations, but if you mean "lobby" as it taking people out to dinner, buying them gifts, etc. the way that lobbyists do, well we can agree to disagree.

Edited April 2 by sparks1093

[mz-s]

8 minutes ago, aborgman said:

 

Eh - there are no guarantees out there - but UI/UX design and the layout of information and how it is presented can absolutely have a large affect on what percentage of people extract and retain the necessary information.

 

You can't make it idiot proof - but you can make it more idiot resistant.

 

If you try to make something idiot proof the universe provides a better idiot.

[TheLargeFamily]

 

 

 

1 hour ago, jimbo5544 said:

Listing out the various scenarios would just confuse people more.  If people book on their own, they take on that responsibility.  If they use a PVP or TA, then the knowledge is not needed. You removed the lack of by using someone who KNOWS.

My first PVP did nothing beyond book my rooms. Never responded to emails. 

 

So I tried a TA for my upcoming cruise (when we will have passports) and she couldn't book us ANY of the rooms I saw online. So I had to book online myself. 

 

Hey, look! More inconcistencies!

 

[aborgman]

43 minutes ago, mz-s said:

 

If you try to make something idiot proof the universe provides a better idiot.

 

Absolutely - and you still reduce the number who misunderstand by doing it.

 

It's best that we don't engage in the "Perfect Solution" logical fallacy. Seat belts don't save everyone, but that doesn't mean seatbelt laws don't work.

 

 

[aborgman]

1 hour ago, sparks1093 said:

 If you mean "lobby" by providing input, sure, I can agree with that because everyone has the right to "lobby" proposed federal regulations, but if you mean "lobby" as it taking people out to dinner, buying them gifts, etc. the way that lobbyists do, well we can agree to disagree.

 

Well yes - the very definition of lobbying is "seek to influence a politician or public official on an issue." - so of course merely providing input qualifies... but if you think the cruise industry wasn't (and isn't - on a DAILY basis, right now) taking people out to dinner, buying them gifts, etc... well, I expect you'll be disappointed when you find out the truth.

 

Cruise Lines spent $24 million dollars on lobbying between 9/11 and the implementation of the WHTI.

 

...and they've averaged about $3.5 million a year on lobbying ever since - which jumped up to a $5.5 million in 2021.

[jimbo5544]

41 minutes ago, aborgman said:

 

Well yes - the very definition of lobbying is "seek to influence a politician or public official on an issue." - so of course merely providing input qualifies... but if you think the cruise industry wasn't (and isn't - on a DAILY basis, right now) taking people out to dinner, buying them gifts, etc... well, I expect you'll be disappointed when you find out the truth.

 

Cruise Lines spent $24 million dollars on lobbying between 9/11 and the implementation of the WHTI.

 

...and they've averaged about $3.5 million a year on lobbying ever since - which jumped up to a $5.5 million in 2021.

All industries lobby, that is the way it currently works.  Others do it WAY more.  As example, the airlines (same industry) lobbied to the tune if 17+ million in the first half of 2023, and they got bailed out by the feds for covid and were not shut down. I guess it all on how you look at the numbers and from what viewpoint....😎

[sparks1093]

49 minutes ago, aborgman said:

 

Well yes - the very definition of lobbying is "seek to influence a politician or public official on an issue." - so of course merely providing input qualifies... but if you think the cruise industry wasn't (and isn't - on a DAILY basis, right now) taking people out to dinner, buying them gifts, etc... well, I expect you'll be disappointed when you find out the truth.

 

Cruise Lines spent $24 million dollars on lobbying between 9/11 and the implementation of the WHTI.

 

...and they've averaged about $3.5 million a year on lobbying ever since - which jumped up to a $5.5 million in 2021.

 

2 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

All industries lobby, that is the way it currently works.  Others do it WAY more.  As example, the airlines (same industry) lobbied to the tune if 17+ million in the first half of 2023, and they got bailed out by the feds for covid and were not shut down. I guess it all on how you look at the numbers and from what viewpoint....😎

I grew up in an era where lobbying had very negative connotations but I can see your point. 

[aborgman]

1 minute ago, jimbo5544 said:

All industries lobby, that is the way it currently works.  ..😎

 

Absolutely... Which is why I find it weird that anyone would claim they didn't lobby.

 

Carnival - like Delta, GE, Walmart, or Hilton - exists to generate as much revenue for as little expense as possible.

 

They will lie, lobby... Do ANYTHING within the law to maximize profits. Gaslight customers, fund political campaigns, etc.

 

Like all publicly traded companies - legal requirements make them amoral maximizers of profit.

[jimbo5544]

22 minutes ago, aborgman said:

 

Absolutely... Which is why I find it weird that anyone would claim they didn't lobby.

 

Carnival - like Delta, GE, Walmart, or Hilton - exists to generate as much revenue for as little expense as possible.

 

They will lie, lobby... Do ANYTHING within the law to maximize profits. Gaslight customers, fund political campaigns, etc.

 

Like all publicly traded companies - legal requirements make them amoral maximizers of profit.

The way a capital society works.  For the record, privately held companies (as example MSC I believe) do the same exact thing.  Did I claim they did not lobby?